Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

Okeydoke, but I am still attempting to understand things from your perspective.

So Jesus did not leave the world with a universal way for all Christians, regardless of denomination, to know the truth regarding His teachings, such as confession?

Do you agree with the following:

As a former non-Catholic, I eventually learned the canon of Scripture was determined by the CC councils.

The CC via council, defined the 2 Natures of Christ: dogmatized in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Further controversies over whether Christ had one of two wills ensued, and this went on for a few centuries more.

The CC via council, defined original sin, which is not found in scripture: this was finalized in dogma so late that it wasn’t even part of the Nicene Creed; the ECF’s wrote much more about purgatory than original sin.

If so, then why trust that the catholic church, via council, got it right about those things and disbelieve that the CC got it right about things such as the sacrament of confession?

I understand your argument .Well didn’t Jehovah promise to Abraham many things ? Many promises ?Did not the Jews give us the Torah ? Did they not take and inhabit the promised land ? Did they not have the prophets, and their writings were preserved ? Were they not the light of the world , a pillar of truth amongst a dark gentile world ? Yet what happened ? They rejected their Messiah .They went off track . And yet did they not begin with such promise ? Despite their failing, God did not ,for His Messiah came forth , and indeed kept every promise to Abraham ,yet not in a way understood by “Israel”…If the Lord does not connect the dots of that to your question ,then maybe this will Help. Look at the 7 churches in Revelations. All began in the spirit ,but down the road only one was without fault. The Good Shepherd was trying to guide them (for no pope was to be found ?) .Jesus even warned if they did not repent , He would take away their candlestick , that is the Holy Spirit would withdraw form their assembly.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I understand your argument .Well didn’t Jehovah promise to Abraham many things ? Many promises ?Did not the Jews give us the Torah ? Did they not take and inhabit the promised land ? Did they not have the prophets, and their writings were preserved ? Were they not the light of the world , a pillar of truth amongst a dark gentile world ? Yet what happened ? They rejected their Messiah .They went off track .

That’s not quite accurate. There were two rejections. The Jews offered an earthly kingdom of military might to Jesus, which He rejected because the true Kingdom is a spiritual one of forgiveness of sins.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:10-15[/BIBLEDRB]

Some, but not all of the Jews then rejected the spiritual Kingdom. Those Jews who accepted the Kingdom became the “Church throughout Galilee and Judaea” (Acts 9:31), or “Ecclesia Kataholes” as it is in the Greek and “Catholic Church” as that term is transliterated into English.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. We are absolved of ordinary sins at Mass.

But when we commit mortal sin, the sacramental bond we have with Christ is broken. It is restored only through the sacrament of confession to be able to worthily partake in the Sacred Eucharist.

The greatest presence of power in the world is the Divine Presence of the Lord in the Tabernacle.

For the Protestants who continue to doubt, I challenge you to enter into a Catholic Church and sit an hour at a time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament for Him to answer what we cannot.

 

[david_ruiz]

The inerrancy of the Church is not based upon interpretation of anything, but upon her Divine elements. She has as her Head the Lord Jesus, and the HS as her Soul. It is these divine elements that make her infallible.

 

[KathleenGee]

Katholic is Greek for universal. How can changing the word into a foreign spelling erase the marks of oneness, holiness, apostolic and universal???

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes , and the Church , the Body is ALL born again believers in Christ

Again, that’s not quite accurate. Belief is not what causes a person to become born again. Baptism is. Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:4, 1Pet 3:21, Heb 10:22. Thus the unfortunately many Protestant churches which do not baptize or have modified the baptismal formula from what Jesus described in the Great Commission are not part of the Church, although they can still be saved at the discretion of Jesus Christ, the only Judge.

 

[joe370]

I understand your argument .Well didn’t Jehovah promise to Abraham many things ? Many promises ?Did not the Jews give us the Torah ? Did they not take and inhabit the promised land ? Did they not have the prophets, and their writings were preserved ? Were they not the light of the world , a pillar of truth amongst a dark gentile world ? Yet what happened ? They rejected their Messiah .They went off track . And yet did they not begin with such promise ? Despite their failing, God did not ,for His Messiah came forth , and indeed kept every promise to Abraham ,yet not in a way understood by “Israel”…If the Lord does not connect the dots of that to your question ,then maybe this will Help. Look at the 7 churches in Revelations. All began in the spirit ,but down the road only one was without fault. The Good Shepherd was trying to guide them (for no pope was to be found ?) .Jesus even warned if they did not repent , He would take away their candlestick , that is the Holy Spirit would withdraw form their assembly.

I’m not sure what the pope has to do with what I asked. They would of had no clue what sola scriptura was, and not one protestant was to be found either. Hope you don’t mind me asking again: So Jesus did not leave the world with a way for all Christians, regardless of denomination, to know the truth regarding His teachings, such as confession?

Could the CC have been wrong about the following 2 things:

The CC via council, defined the 2 Natures of Christ: dogmatized in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Further controversies over whether Christ had one of two wills ensued, and this went on for a few centuries more.

The CC via council, defined original sin, which is not found in scripture: this was finalized in dogma so late that it wasn’t even part of the Nicene Creed; the ECF’s wrote much more about purgatory than original sin.

If not, then why not?

 

[joe370]

Yes , and the Church , the Body is ALL born again believers in Christ ,whether Catholic,Orthodox Protestant, that is ,the Church IS Universal. As soon as you say she is Catholic (as in Roman Catholic),you have destroyed her universality.Catholic, by definition, is universal.

So the one invisible church? Got it. What do you think Jesus meant when He said the following to the fallible apostles:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[joe370]

Dokimas, what do you think Jesus meant when He said the following to the fallible apostles:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[joe370]

Okay, I’m going to step on some toes, but here goes. Whether you believe that 21st century priests can forgive sins on earth, is a matter of faith! If one BELIEVES that John 20:20-23 is interpreted as Jesus endowing the disciples with the power to forgive sins, and believe that these modern day priests have been properly chosen and ordained by God, that there is no disruption in the chain of so called apostolic succession! A lot to believe!

What do you think Jesus meant when He said the following to the fallible apostles:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[david_ruiz]

Katholic is Greek for universal. How can changing the word into a foreign spelling erase the marks of oneness, holiness, apostolic and universal???

It doesn’t.Precisely my point.What council gave the Greeks the new definition of “universal” ?

 

[david_ruiz]

So Jesus did not leave the world with a way for all Christians, regardless of denomination, to know the truth regarding His teachings, such as confession?

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7443576:

So the one invisible church?

Only the head is invisible.

What did Jesus mean:
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

It would take me awhile to find them ,but after almost the limit of 1000 threads ,there have been quite few of them answering your question.The contrary position ,interpretation has been given. It has not been avoided. In fact, that is why this thread was started.With more time perhaps it could be repeated ,or thread #'s looked up that that had thoughtful answers.

 

[placido]

Yes , and the Church , the Body is ALL born again believers in Christ ,whether Catholic,Orthodox Protestant, that is ,the Church IS Universal. As soon as you say she is Catholic (as in Roman Catholic),you have destroyed her universality.Catholic, by definition, is universal.

So, according to you, members of the universal church are not of one accord (Acts 1:14) and of one mind (Philipians 2:2) … they hold contradictory views and quarrel over doctrine … and that is just fine?

placido

 

[benedictus2]

Okay, I’m going to step on some toes, but here goes. Whether you believe that 21st century priests can forgive sins on earth, is a matter of faith! If one BELIEVES that John 20:20-23 is interpreted as Jesus endowing the disciples with the power to forgive sins, and believe that these modern day priests have been properly chosen and ordained by God, that there is no disruption in the chain of so called apostolic succession! A lot to believe!

You have put that very well 1beleevr. It is a lot to believe.

But it boils down to this: Do we believe Jesus or not.

If we believe Jesus then we believe that He has indeed given some men the authority to forgive sins BECAUSE HE SAID SO.

However,** IF WE DOUBT JESUS, then yes indeed that is a lot to believe.**

So it seems you doubt Jesus. That is okay. Many do too.

 

[benedictus2]

No one. God is His own interpreter, thru the Holy Spirit. He talks to us .Are we not spiritual beings ?

Fair enough.

Let’s take the simple matter of John 20. I interpret it the Catholic way and I believe God has guided me in that interpretation.

You say the contrary.

How do we know which one of us is right?

 

[benedictus2]

Suggest is a loaded word.

I agree God protect His universal church. That doesn’t make the CC or any other church infallible.

Yes, it does. Jesus is at war with the devil right? Jesus referred to the devil as the father of lies. What did Jesus promise His Church? That she will be led into all truth.
Otherwise we will have no way of knowing what is true. If God did not protect His Church from error, then every single heresy that sprouted in the Church’s history has as much validity as the orthodox Christian claims.

IMO, you’re making a wrong conclusions from this verse. For example, Israel made mistake after mistake and wandered far from God yet God protected them as He said He would.

Protected them yes, but not promised that they will be led into all truth. That promise came only with Jesus for His Church.

Look what happened in the 1940’s. The beauty of God’s grace is that He protect His church in spite of the weaknesses (which would include at least misunderstandings and sin) of those that make up the church.

Look at what happened in the 1930s at the Lambeth Conference: Contraception which used to be regarded by every single Christian denomination as a sin, was suddenly no longer a sin. A lie has crept into the teaching of the Anglican Church and everyone followed suit after.

But God preserved the Catholic Church from that error so she remained the only one who held fast to that true teaching that all Christians before 1930 have held to.

 

[benedictus2]

Authority does not mean infallibility. All who get to Heaven will, in Heaven never sin again, IMO. Yet, they sin here from time to time. You seem to make a wrong conclusion again.

Nope PR was making the right conclusion. It is not about sinning. It is about defining what is sin and what is not., therefore about doctrine.
Infallibility means that the Church will be prevented from making an error when it teaches on matters of faith and morals.

Wrong assumptions again. Did God forsake David when David strayed far from God? No because God saw his heart. That’s the beauty of God’s grace and mercy. BTW, the universal church of Jesus Christ if far larger than the CC, IMO.

Nope, the Universal Church of Christ is the Catholic Church. I suggest you brush up on history. You’d be hard pressed to trace your denomination to the apostles.

Wrong assumption again, IMO. Jesus is the only infallible speaker.

But this Inflallible Speaker promised that His Church will be led into all truth. And it is precisely because He is an Infallible Speaker that we know that that promise is true.

However He speaks through us. We aren’t infallible, and we make up His church.

We are not infallible because we have not been given that promise, but He gave that promise to His Church. And that promise is necessary because without it we have no way of knowing which one is wrong and which one is right.

If the Church is not infallible, then the Bible that you believe in is not inerrant either.

Jesus didn’t say ‘If you believe and teach and act 100% correct 100% of the time, I’ll make sure you are not left alone as orphans.’ He fulfills His promises in spite of us. That’s what grace and mercy is all about.

But just use simple reasoning here.

If His Spirit is indeed guiding us, then how come we have varying interpretations of the Bible? Does that not sound like the Tower of Babel rather than Pentecost?

Again, the Holy Spirit will do as Jesus promised. This doesn’t mean we’ll always understand. We’re fallible humans. This points to the beauty of God’s mercy and grace.

But again, if we just say we are all infallible humans, then all our interpretation are wrong which means that it was totally pointless for Christ to start a Church because we have no way of knowing what is right.

No. Sheep don’t always do what they should. That’s why the Good Shepherd has a rod and staff.

That is true. But that is not what is important. So long as they know the right thing that they should do.

A person who believes that evil is okay will have no point of reference with which to mend his ways.

A sinner who knows that what he is doing is evil, because he has a true point of reference, knows that he can change his ways because he knows the right path to take. That is the point of infallibility.

I again go back to the example about contraception.

Now that every other Christian denomination has taught that ABC is a good thing to do, we now have people doing something evil and yet calling it good.

Thanks be to God for the Church who is uncompromising on this. She continues to teach the truth of Christ on this.

 

[david_ruiz]

So, according to you, members of the universal church are not of one accord (Acts 1:14) and of one mind (Philipians 2:2) … they hold contradictory views and quarrel over doctrine … and that is just fine?

placido

My denomination is of one mind also.We do not quarrel over doctrine also.Guess we must be the “Church”.

 

[david_ruiz]

Fair enough.

Let’s take the simple matter of John 20. I interpret it the Catholic way and I believe God has guided me in that interpretation.

You say the contrary.

How do we know which one of us is right?

But what ,shall we leave the Lord out of it ,or His word ?