Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[GreggAlvarez]

I stated that the Church by definition has nothing to do with names of specific churches ,nor directly related to their doctrines .It is a gathering of regenerated souls ,The only time i mention names (denominational ) is to infer these souls can be found in all of them (Not every Catholic or baptist is regenerated.,hence i said "can " be found as in some)CHURCH IS IRESPECTIVE OF DENOMINATION ,INCLUDING CATHOLICISM .PER MY HUMBLE OPINION THANK-YOU.

So, can different “churches” can be “in Christ”, which translates to “in Truth”? If yes, how can contradictory Truths be True and how can we be “in Christ” but not in Truth? If not, then come to the Catholic Church. There is nothing wrong there.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I don’t think it’s a question of 100% or 0%. I’ve made it clear I don’t think any church has it correct 100% of the time. I have no clue which % the CC falls into or my church either.

So, if nobody has 100% Truth, then 100% Christ (“I am the Truth”) is nowhere to be found. God would not do that to us. That is why I am Catholic.

I’m sure you and I have very important common beliefs and we share them with all other Christians. That’s what’s important. I understand we too often like to major on our differences and that’s what ‘debate’ is all about.

Again, it is NOT important that we share beliefs. What is important is that we come to the attainment of Truth. THAT is what is important. Somebody HAS to be right when it comes to Truth. That someBODY (of Christ) is the Catholic Church. Otherwise, I would not be defending it.

 

[jlhargus]

Evangelicals generally stress Jesus ,in a personal way first, then church .

JL: As though Christ can be separated from his body, the Church. Of course Evangelicals GENERALLY stress Christ, because when they look around, for that BODY OF CHRIST, the Church, all they see are DIVIDED scattered sheep, a literal tower of babel. So an imaginary, invisible church must be invented, thru a tradition of men to nullify the word of God, to salve their conscience. Yet they cannot produce scripture to support this so called invisible church.

For you , you must become “Catholic”, not just a christian. For an Evangelical you must become Christian , be born again , have a personal relationship with Jesus. There is no other way to enter His family.

JL: To be Catholic is to be Christian, I am a Catholic (universal) Christian, you are a Protestant (denominational) Christian. …

If you want to stick to accusing “just Jesus and me” , they might accuse you of “everything Catholic and Jesus” and , 2000 years baggage of rules ,regulations and Traditions, and hopefully you get to heaven…Both accusations should probably be dropped .

JL: I would be proud if I were accused of everthing Catholic and Jesus. We are ONE pilgram PEOPLE not thousands of scattered people into a tower of babel, caused by that Jesus and me attitude. Tell me what is that BAGGAGE OR RULES, and regulations? I don’t have any baggage of rules and regulations that concern me in my daily walk with Christ. I can also judge myself to know if I am in a state of grace and on the road to heaven or not. The Chruch teaches us how to examine our conscience and to confess any sins. Whereas some once saved, always saved believe they will go to heaven no matter what sins they do. That’s false security.

 

[Dokimas]

So, if nobody has 100% Truth, then 100% Christ (“I am the Truth”) is nowhere to be found. God would not do that to us. That is why I am Catholic.

Again, it is NOT important that we share beliefs. What is important is that we come to the attainment of Truth. THAT is what is important. Somebody HAS to be right when it comes to Truth. That someBODY (of Christ) is the Catholic Church. Otherwise, I would not be defending it.

Jesus surely is 100% THE TRUTH.

You believe the CC is the Body of Christ so of course you defend that. Your believe doesn’t make it true, though. Many members of the CC could be part of the Body of Christ, making the Body much larger than the CC.

 

[Dokimas]

Thanks for your opinion. Have a great night.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Jesus surely is 100% THE TRUTH.

I was not arguing this but my point exactly. If Jesus is 100% Truth (He cannot ever be less than that) AND (according to you) 100% Truth is nowhere to be found, then Jesus is nowhere to be found. This is just the following from your statements. Surely, you do not believe this.

You believe the CC is the Body of Christ so of course you defend that. Your believe doesn’t make it true, though. Many members of the CC could be part of the Body of Christ, making the Body much larger than the CC.

I agree with the first two sentences. I do have billions of reasons that it is true. I am not making an emotional plea for the Truth of my Church. I did not become Catholic to believe in some stuff or because it feels good nor do I believe these things BECAUSE I am Catholic. I became Catholic because it is the Truth and I am Catholic BECAUSE I believe what is God’s Truth taught by His Church, whether or not I like it. And trust me, there are some Truths I just do not like at all.

IF your last statement is true, then that would mean that Christ’s Body has contradictions in it because there are different and contradictory beliefs. BUT Christ’s Body cannot have inherent contradictions BECAUSE He is the Truth.

I am not making any of this stuff up. This is reason at its best. I am just making observations. Your belief that ALL Christianity is part of Christ’s Body would have to accept that Jesus is NOT 100% Truth and I know you cannot believe that for one second. Is it really a coincidence that the Catholic Church is the only Christian denomination (although hate denigrating it to that) that claims itself and only itself to be the Body of Christ? I think not. We literally are the Body of Christ through the Eucharist. This is not mythology here. This is utter Truth.

 

[jlhargus]

Relationship with Christ is central and without sacraments at first.

.

JL: Yes relationship with Christ is central and the, ORDINARY, way God has ordained for us to BE BORN AGAIN and come into relationship with him is thru water AND the Spirit, in the SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM. Just as God ordained an ORDINARY way for natural birth. Yet there are times when it is impossible for a child to be born the natural way. Then a physician must intervene and birth by CESARIAN, such as the Great Physician did with the thief on the cross, we call it bapism by desire…

[Col 2:9 For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with THE CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF SINS OF THE FLESH BY THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: 12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, BEING DEAD IN YOUR SINS AND THE UNCIRCUMCISION OF YOUR FLESH, hath he QUICKENED together WITH HIM, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; 14 BLOTTING OUT the handwriting of ORDINANCES that was AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS;]

Phillip 3:3 For WE ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, of something better, to come, than circumcision made by hands.
Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And ** I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU**, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

Zech12:10 And I WILL POUR UPON THE HOUSE OF DAVID, and UPON THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zech13:1 IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A FOUNTAIN OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem FOR SIN AND for UNCLEANNESS.

[Isa52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 **SO SHALL HE SPRINKLE MANY NATIONS; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.]

[1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through **SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,] How are we sanctified of the Spirit? How are we sprinkled with the blood of Jesus? How are we begoten again by God? BAPTISM.

**How are we crucified and die with Christ? ** How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? **How are we united or planted together with Christ? How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? **
[Rms 6:3 KNOW YE NOT, THAT so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 Therefore we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like AS CHRIST WAS RAISED up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION: 6 Knowing this, that OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, that the body of sin might be destroyed, THAT henceforth WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.]

[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS]

[Evidently more is needed than BELIEF or FAITH in Christ, to be born again, because John’s baptism of WATER, was of repentance, believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian baptism to be born again by water AND the Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Christian water baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism and a strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation, by laying on of hands. Confirmation is Pentecost for the baptized.

TITUS 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HE SAVED US, BY THE WASHING of REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST;

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are **washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1Cor 12:13 For BY ONE SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been ALL made to DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT.] Also Acts9:18, 22:16, Hb10:22, 1Pt3:21,

Who now are the circumcision
Phil 3:3 For WE ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
[Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, **REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.]

Acts3:19 REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOURS SINS MAY BE BLOTTED OUT, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

What must we do to be saved if we believe?
[MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

What do we do after we believe? What is that, born of God power, he gives us to become children of God?
[1Jn 1:12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, even to them THAT BELIEVE on his name: 13 WHICH WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR of the will of THE FLESH, NOR of the WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.]

How do we enter the kingdom of God? How are we born again of God? Jn3:3 JESUS ANSWERED and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Jn3:5 JESUS ANSWERED, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND of the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

**How do we become children of God? How do we put on Christ? How do we get in Christ? How do we become a new creature? **
[Gal 3:26 For YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] If we put on Christ then we are IN CHRIST and a NEW CREATURE.

2Cor5:17 Therefore IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal6:15 For IN CHRIST JESUS neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, BUT A NEW CREATURE.

**Does baptism save? **How does baptism now save us? ****
[1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, EIGHT SOULS WERE SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even ]B]BAPTISM DOTH also NOW SAVE US (NOT the PUTTING AWAY of the FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God,) BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ:] CONTINUED;

 

[jlhargus]

**How is our conscience purged? **
Hb9:14 How much more shall the BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, PURGE YOUR CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?]

Heb10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our ** BODIES WASHED WITH PURE WATER**.]

**How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? ****
[Rv 1:5 And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, 6 And hath MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS UNTO GOD and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.]

**How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? **
[Titus:3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, **BUT according to HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST; 6 Which he SHED ON US abundantly THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR;] What do we wash with? Water and a cleansing agent (soap). The Holy Spirit is the soap or cleansing agent in water baptism.

**How do we wash and what is our robes?
[Rv 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH came out of great tribulation, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.] Our body and soul, our robes, are washed in baptism thru the Lamb’s blood.

**What is this washing, in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of our God, that sanctifies and justifies us? **
1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS, AND by the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.] With what do we wash? WATER and a cleaning agent (soap). We are baptized with WATER and the cleansing agent is the HOLY SPIRIT, who washes away our sins, regenerating our dead soul by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

How are our sins washed away?
[Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

How do we become MEMBERS of the ONE BODY of CHRIST? How do we drink of one Spirit?
[1Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT. 14 For THE BODY IS NOT ONE MEMBER, BUT MANY.]

**How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? What is the circumcision of Christ? How are we buried with him? How are we risen with him? **
[Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST 12 BURIED WITH HIM **IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are RISEN WITH HIM THROUGH the FAITH of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.]

Eph 4:4 There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling; 5 ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, 6 ONE GOD and Father of all, who is ABOVE ALL, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL.

Eph 2:4 But GOD, who is RICH IN MERCY, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Rms11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and THOU, BEING A WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFTED IN among them, and WITH THEM PARTAKEST of THE ROOT AND FATNESS OF THE OLIVE TREE;] Being grafted into the new spiritual Israel, the Church, by baptism we share and drink the nourishing sap=Holy Spirit from the root=Christ.

[Rms15:12 And again, Esaias saith, THERE SHALL BE A ROOT OF JESSE, and he THAT SHALL RISE TO REIGN OVER THE GENTILES; in him shall the Gentiles trust.] The answer to all the above is BAPTISM.

OIGINAL SIN
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0509fea4sb2.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
You must unerstand original Sin to understand Infant Baptism

 

[david_ruiz]

So, can different “churches” can be “in Christ”, which translates to “in Truth”? If yes, how can contradictory Truths be True and how can we be “in Christ” but not in Truth? If not, then come to the Catholic Church. There is nothing wrong there.

Your quote of me has to do with Christ’s one church ,His Body,that being comprised of regenerated souls. As far as different churches , I only mentioned congregations .such as Antioch, Phillipi .That is how I believe it was in the beginning.The letters to the seven churches in Revelations answers your question that they were in Christ ,in His truth ,but they were not perfect .In fact only one did NOT need “correcting” from the Lord.Each “church” ,congregation was treated individually .One letter was not sent to all.Maybe it’s like the Trinity ,3 in 1.The seven were one -regenerated believers in one Body,yet they 7-individual congregations .Like today, but more congregations

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7448333:

David how can you agree that there is ONE CC and then turn around and say small c and Capital C.

Not sure i ever said agreed there is one CC(as in Roman).I have always said there is one Church,it is catholic/universal.

I wish you would take time to really read what you have written in the last 5 months and I believe that you will see that you actually argue with yourself alot.

Perhaps,and perhaps i see others do it to. I think it is good to put yourself as much as possible in the other persons “shoes”.And you know what ,I may have even contradicted myself once or twice ,as i have seen others do also .That is not to say I or they do not have a definite opinion on matters >I am in good company.

It would be a waste of time for me at this stage to try to show you what the Church teaches. Simply because many have and it means nothing to you. That is obvious.

Don’t judge your showing me Catholic things by whether or not I come to believe them .I value being able to at least understand and reiterate your positions, or at least try to.I know I have done my job when you can reiterate my position .It does mean something to me ,although i think you prefer to see me come to the same conviction ,which is another matter , and we are wise to leave that it His hands. ( Sorry for the times I have been unwise, and pushed to hard ).

 

[Cat_Herder]

Not sure i ever said agreed there is one CC(as in Roman).I have always said there is one Church,it is catholic/universal.

Since the “Roman” Catholic Church is the original article (witness Peter writing his books of the Bible from “Babylon” i.e. Rome), you cannot make this argument without alleging a “great apostasy.”

There was no apostasy.

You probably think there was one because you see lots of things in the Catholic Church which you think are “pagan” (like saints and Mary). But those things are Jewish in origin—tzadikim and Mother Rachel.

 

[placido]

True if you mean small “c” as catholic /universal ,Untrue if you mean capital C as in Catholic ,commonly referred as Roman Catholic.

Okay, we agree that Jesus founded one universal / catholic church. Where is that church today … remember: it is one (in one accord, one-minded etc), not a collection of thousands of disagreeing denominations.

Let’s see, the church at Antioch ,Ephusus Smyrna,Phillipi etc

If you think those were different churches, having different doctrines then you have a long way to go in understanding what you read.

placido

 

[david_ruiz]

JL:

As though Christ can be separated from his body, the Church. Of course Evangelicals GENERALLY stress Christ, because when they look around, for that BODY OF CHRIST, the Church, all they see are DIVIDED scattered sheep, a literal tower of babel.

 

[david_ruiz]

Okay, we agree that Jesus founded one universal / catholic church. Where is that church today … remember: it is one (in one accord, one-minded etc), not a collection of thousands of disagreeing denominations.

 

[placido]

I stated that the Church by definition has nothing to do with names of specific churches ,nor directly related to their doctrines. It is a gathering of regenerated souls,

Do you know what names are there for? They serve to distinguish people, objects etc.
Jesus established only one such “gathering of regenerated souls”. Meaning that those who gather somewhere else are not in Christ’s Church. They are the other sheep that are no yet in Christ’s “one flock” (John 10:16).
Christ’s church was not given a distinct name until some people started gathering where the bishop was not. Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church, says St. Ignatius.

placido

 

[placido]

I have given a definition of church that satisfies your criteria. I understand your point except that by your own definition of universal , you do include those 30,000 denominations/elements, that we are gift towards catholic unity. Hopefully I stated the position correctly .Still, not sure it satisfies definition of universal though ,for i am not fully convinced in the equality of the 30,000 plus One elements per Catholicism.But i have been told they are equal .

Let me try this:

1. You believe there is only one church, right?
2. You believe that that one church is Catholic, right?
3. You agree with the Bible that believers must be of one accord, one mind, right?
   Okay, if there is only one church then it doesn’t matter whether “c” or “C” … it is one.
   And if believers, who are in this one church, have to be of one accord and one mind, then those with different doctrines are not in this one church … that is what logic demands.

I Never said that , Jesus did not. But He did not say they were all Catholic (Roman) either.

I already told you what names are there for. They serve to distinguish people, objects etc. If you and me walk in a forest and find two hereto unknown objects, we give them arbitrary names to distinguish them. Otherwise there would be confusion.

placido

 

[joe370]

I don’t think it’s a question of 100% or 0%. I’ve made it clear I don’t think any church has it correct 100% of the time. I have no clue which % the CC falls into or my church either.

I’m sure you and I have very important common beliefs and we share them with all other Christians. That’s what’s important. I understand we too often like to major on our differences and that’s what ‘debate’ is all about.

Okeydoke…Do you believe that the apostles possessed the authority, from Jesus, to forgive sins? Why do you think Jesus said the following to the apostles:

• And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”*

Did that forgiving or retaining of sins stop after the apostolic age?

 

[david_ruiz]

Since the “Roman” Catholic Church is the original article (witness Peter writing his books of the Bible from “Babylon” i.e. Rome), you cannot make this argument without alleging a “great apostasy.”

There was no apostasy.

You probably think there was one because you see lots of things in the Catholic Church which you think are “pagan” (like saints and Mary). But those things are Jewish in origin—tzadikim and Mother Rachel.

Hey we are still on Cat , I thought we stopped at 1000. Anyways , trying to follow you .I don’t think my definition of church needs an apostasy. I understand many say strong things about CC apostasy . I am not.That is another topic . I gave a definition of church which is IRRESPECTIVE of denominations, even irrespective of your own view of CC. CC can stand whole , from 33 ad to the Great Day, and my definition still holds , giving respect to all Christian Churches .I sincerely believe that in heaven we will see souls nurtured in CC and Protestants and Orthodox etc.
( All three are still producing saints today).

 

[joe370]

placido;7450361:

I have given a definition of church that satisfies your criteria. I understand your point except that by your own definition of universal , you do include those 30,000 denominations/elements, that we are gift towards catholic unity. Hopefully I stated the position correctly .Still, not sure it satisfies definition of universal though ,for i am not fully convinced in the equality of the 30,000 plus One elements per Catholicism.But i have been told they are equal .

INever said that , Jesus did not. But He did not say they were all Catholic (Roman) either.

I think, if we are all being honest, we must admit that there really is not one united universal church. There is the Catholic church, the Eastern orthodox churches and the Protestant/Evangelical/non-denominational churches. When Jesus said in Matthew 16: I will build my church, I doubt He had this in mind, but, being God, no doubt knew it would be inevitable. The question remains: where is the church of Matthew 16? Most non-Catholics will simply insist that all the churches above comprise the one church founded by Jesus. I myself do not understand how multiple churches can be called the one church founded by Jesus circa AD 33, considering the fact that non of the non-Catholic churches (with the exception of the EOC’s) - existed until, at best, the 16th century. I tried though…