Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

=placido;7450440]Let me try this:

1. You believe that that one church is Catholic, right?

When you capitalize ,i draw back because as you say below ,names are for distinguishing and so is capitalizing .To me it does not mean universal ,I get Roman Catholic out of it .I capitalize when referring to you out of respect for proper English (capitalizing names) .It is not generic as a small "c’ is

I already told you what names are there for. They serve to distinguish people, objects etc. If you and me walk in a forest and find two hereto unknown objects, we give them arbitrary names to distinguish them. Otherwise there would be confusion.

Understand .You say they were all CC, but just happen to be in those cities ,but still all CC. I say they were individual churches of Christ -One- but autonomous from one another ( hence each had their own letter ) ,yet subject to another, and all subject to their Good Shepherd ,The Lord, as Rev.suggests.

 

[placido]

When you capitalize ,i draw back because as you say below ,names are for distinguishing and so is capitalizing .

You are making things difficult for yourself: there is but one church – the catholic church – and as long as its name is not capitalized you have no problem.

To me it does not mean universal ,I get Roman Catholic out of it

The church is Catholic; Roman/Latin is just one of its rites.

.I capitalize when referring to you out of respect for proper English (capitalizing names) .It is not generic as a small "c’ is

I appreciate it when you use capital “C” when referring to the Church Christ founded.

Understand .You say they were all CC, but just happen to be in those cities ,but still all CC. I say they were individual churches of Christ

Christ did not found churches, He founded one Church and it remains ONE.

-One- but autonomous from one another

You said it correctly: “autonomous” – not contradictory to one another.

placido

 

[Dokimas]

I was not arguing this but my point exactly. If Jesus is 100% Truth (He cannot ever be less than that) AND (according to you) 100% Truth is nowhere to be found, then Jesus is nowhere to be found. This is just the following from your statements. Surely, you do not believe this.

I agree with the first two sentences. I do have billions of reasons that it is true. I am not making an emotional plea for the Truth of my Church. I did not become Catholic to believe in some stuff or because it feels good nor do I believe these things BECAUSE I am Catholic. I became Catholic because it is the Truth and I am Catholic BECAUSE I believe what is God’s Truth taught by His Church, whether or not I like it. And trust me, there are some Truths I just do not like at all.

IF your last statement is true, then that would mean that Christ’s Body has contradictions in it because there are different and contradictory beliefs. BUT Christ’s Body cannot have inherent contradictions BECAUSE He is the Truth.

I am not making any of this stuff up. This is reason at its best. I am just making observations. Your belief that ALL Christianity is part of Christ’s Body would have to accept that Jesus is NOT 100% Truth and I know you cannot believe that for one second. Is it really a coincidence that the Catholic Church is the only Christian denomination (although hate denigrating it to that) that claims itself and only itself to be the Body of Christ? I think not. We literally are the Body of Christ through the Eucharist. This is not mythology here. This is utter Truth.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is in true believers. Does that mean they are 100% correct 100% of the time because Jesus (who is 100% correct 100% of the time)? Or does Jesus leave us when we are incorrect? Does that mean Hebrews 13:5 is wrong?

 

[Dokimas]

Okeydoke…

That’s quite cute. I’m sitting here wondering if that is you being affectionate or sarcastic and condescending or frustrated.

Do you believe that the apostles possessed the authority, from Jesus, to forgive sins? Why do you think Jesus said the following to the apostles:

• And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”*

I believe they had the authority Jesus gave them. I’m not sure you or I have the correct understanding what Jesus meant. It’s not the Word that is the problem, it’s our understanding that may be the problem.

Did that forgiving or retaining of sins stop after the apostolic age?

We have no evidence that the authority you believe your church has has been passed down as is to your church. The only thing we have is your sayso and whoever told you.

 

[joe370]

Dokimas;7451049]That’s quite cute. I’m sitting here wondering if that is you being affectionate or sarcastic and condescending or frustrated.

Affectionate!!! I don’t do so sarcasm. I promise brother. Perhaps I should not use the word okeydoke anymore.

I believe they had the authority Jesus gave them. I’m not sure you or I have the correct understanding what Jesus meant. It’s not the Word that is the problem, it’s our understanding that may be the problem.

Agreed.

We have no evidence that the authority you believe your church has has been passed down as is to your church. The only thing we have is your sayso and whoever told you.

I don’t think I will change your mind and I certainly respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe brother. Early church fathers seem to confirm that it was passed down; could you maybe read each one below and give me your thoughts friend?

Didache
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.” (Didache 4:14,14:1 – A.D.70)

The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.” (Letter of Barnabas 19 – A.D. 74)

Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 – A.D. 110)

Origen
"[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity.” " (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 – A.D. 248)

Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles.” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 – A.D. 374)

John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.” Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? “Whose sins you shall forgive,” he says, “they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven.” (The Priesthood 3:5 – A.D. 387)

Ambrose of Milan
“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only.” (Penance 1:1 – A.D. 388)

 

[Dokimas]

Affectionate!!! I don’t do so sarcasm. I promise brother. Perhaps I should not use the word okeydoke anymore.

Agreed.

I don’t think I will change your mind and I certainly respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe brother. Early church fathers seem to confirm that it was passed down; could you maybe read each one below and give me your thoughts friend?

Didache
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.” (Didache 4:14,14:1 – A.D.70)

The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.” (Letter of Barnabas 19 – A.D. 74)

Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 – A.D. 110)

Origen
"[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity.” " (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 – A.D. 248)

Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles.” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 – A.D. 374)

John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.” Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? “Whose sins you shall forgive,” he says, “they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven.” (The Priesthood 3:5 – A.D. 387)

Ambrose of Milan
“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only.” (Penance 1:1 – A.D. 388)

I don’t care if you use it. Thanks for seeing me as a brother. That means a lot. God bless you.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts from history.

 

[placido]

The Bible tells us that Jesus is in true believers. Does that mean they are 100% correct 100% of the time because Jesus (who is 100% correct 100% of the time)? Or does Jesus leave us when we are incorrect? Does that mean Hebrews 13:5 is wrong?

Where exactly does the Bible say “Jesus IS IN true believers”? If He is in every true believer, why did He command true believers to hear / listen to His Church. Is He (who IS in them) not enough for them?

placido

 

[Dokimas]

Here’s verses I found in the NT that speak of confessing sins.

Matthew 3:6 “and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

This is the confession of those getting baptized by John.

Mark 1:5 “Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”

Same.

Acts 19:18 “And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.”

After the fear of God came upon people in Ephesis after the incident of the seven sons of Sevah and demons, they confessed. Oh that the fear of God would come upon us more often!!!

Romans 14:11 “For it is written: “As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” {#Isa 45:23}”

We will confess to God one day. Seems better to do it now rather than later.

James 5:16 “Confess your trespasses {NU-Text reads Therefore confess your sins.} to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

We are to confess to one another.

1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

It doesn’t tell us to whom do we confess, just confess.

 

[placido]

I believe they had the authority Jesus gave them. I’m not sure you or I have the correct understanding what Jesus meant. It’s not the Word that is the problem, it’s our understanding that may be the problem.

The Word is not the problem; our understanding is not the problem either … the problem is ignoring or removing the Church from the picture.

We have no evidence that the authority you believe your church has has been passed down as is to your church. The only thing we have is your say so and whoever told you.

We have the evidence; you refuse to look at it or you look at it with your mind already made up.

placido

 

[Dokimas]

Where exactly does the Bible say “Jesus IS IN true believers”? If He is in every true believer, why did He command true believers to hear / listen to His Church. Is He (who IS in them) not enough for them?

placido

Colosians 1:27 “To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which {M-Text reads who.} is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

John 14:17 “"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”

1Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

2Corinthians 6:16 “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you {NU-Text reads we.} are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” {#Le 26:12 Jer 32:38 Eze 37:27}”

Galatians 2:20 “"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”

Galatians 4:19 “My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,”

Ephesians 3:17 “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,”

1John 4:4 “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”

Revelation 3:20 “"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”

 

[Dokimas]

The Word is not the problem; our understanding is not the problem either … the problem is ignoring or removing the Church from the picture.

We have the evidence; you refuse to look at it or you look at it with your mind already made up.

placido

Thanks for sharing your understanding.

I find it interesting that you tell me that my mind is already made up. That implies your mind is not made up which I doubt is true. Isn’t your mind made up that your understandings are correct? If so, are you being hypocritical here???

 

[placido]

Here’s verses I found in the NT that speak of confessing sins.

Just make sure you don’t leave out the verses that speak of forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 3:6 “and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

To whom were they confessing? If not to John why did they not simply confess at home? Why go to John?

This is the confession of those getting baptized by John.

Yes, confessing their sins to John.

Mark 1:5 “Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”

Yes, baptized after confessing their sins to John.

Acts 19:18 “And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.”
Telling and confessing to whom?
Dokimas;7451225:

After the fear of God came upon people in Ephesis after the incident of the seven sons of Sevah and demons, they confessed. Oh that the fear of God would come upon us more often!!!

How do we know they confessed if they did it secretly (each confessing directly to God)?

Romans 14:11 “For it is written: “As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” {#Isa 45:23}”

Exactly! Confessing to a priest, who acts in persona Christi, is confessing to God.

We will confess to God one day. Seems better to do it now rather than later.

No. God established a way to confess our sins … ignore it at your own peril. In Numbers 21:8-9 we read how God established a way of healing those bitten by snakes: “And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.’ Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered."
Now, do you think that God healed anyone who refused to look at the bronze serpent after being bitten by a snake?
So, when God establishes a way of healing or of forgiving sins and you ignore it, you do it at own risk.

James 5:16 “Confess your trespasses {NU-Text reads Therefore confess your sins.} to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

Let us try to include verses 14 & 15: "Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
What is going on here? The infirm should summon the presbyters, why? Is God unable to heal the sick? After the prayer of the presbyters the infirm is forgiven his sins? Why can’t God forgive the sins and heal the infirm without the presbyters … can you believe this?

We are to confess to one another.

Oh yes!

1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

We have already seen that we are to summon the presbyters for healing and forgiveness of sins. Since Scriptures do not contradict Scriptures, we know we are to confess our sins to to every Paul walking down the street, but to the presbyters who act in persona Christi. Is that not wonderful that had given such powers to men?

It doesn’t tell us to whom do we confess, just confess.

Hmmm … have you already forgotten what you said above or do you think the Bible contradicts itself? A few seconds after saying “we are to confess to one another”, you turn and say the Bible doesn’t tell us to whom to confess.

placido

 

[PRmerger]

We are to confess to one another.

Indeed.

How does your pastor tell his flock to do this, Doki? Do people stand in front of the congregation and confess they’ve looked at pornography? Or that they cheated on their income tax? Or that they committed adultery?

(Note: I am not specifically asking about those sins necessarily; just asking how it is that your pastor interprets that we must confess our sins to one another.)

 

[david_ruiz]

Christ did not found churches, He founded one Church and it remains ONE.

 

[placido]

Thank-you .Are yo sure this is ok with CC teaching ? I thought they were all under Peter ,under Christ. I say all under Christ and one another .But if you say autnomous , great ,most historians do also.

Did I not say you still have a long way to go as far as the Catholic Church is concerned?
Let me quote, for your benefit, from an EWTN text explaining Church/Churches:
A Church is an assembly of the faithful, hierarchically ordered, both in the entire world – the Catholic Church, or in a certain territory – a particular Church. To be a sacrament (a sign) of the Mystical Body of Christ in the world, a Church must have both a head and members (Col. 1:18). The sacramental sign of Christ the Head is the sacred hierarchy – the bishops, priests and deacons (Eph. 2:19–22). More specifically, it is the local bishop, with his priests and deacons gathered around and assisting him in his office of teaching, sanctifying and governing (Mt. 28:19–20; Titus 1:4–9). The sacramental sign of the Mystical Body is the Christian faithful. Thus the Church of Christ is fully present sacramentally (by way of a sign) wherever there is a sign of Christ the Head, a bishop and those who assist him, and a sign of Christ’s Body, Christian faithful. Each diocese is therefore a particular Church.
You do confuse the Universal Church with particular churches.

Correct ,not contradictory , accorcding to the Rev.letters ,yet still with problems (unity ,or lack of it ,is just one of many possible problems).

Oh no, you wrongly equate problems with doctrinal differences. Revelation letters do not reveal any doctrinal differences. So those particular churches were part of one Universal Church.

placido

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Your quote of me has to do with Christ’s one church ,His Body,that being comprised of regenerated souls. As far as different churches , I only mentioned congregations .such as Antioch, Phillipi .That is how I believe it was in the beginning.The letters to the seven churches in Revelations answers your question that they were in Christ ,in His truth ,but they were not perfect .In fact only one did NOT need “correcting” from the Lord.Each “church” ,congregation was treated individually .One letter was not sent to all.Maybe it’s like the Trinity ,3 in 1.The seven were one -regenerated believers in one Body,yet they 7-individual congregations .Like today, but more congregations

But you are saying that His Body is comprised of all congregations. This does not make sense because that would mean that His Body contains contradictory “Truths”. For example, His Body would be comprised of Salvation through “Faith and Works” AND “Faith alone and not by works”. This would say that Christ’s Body, or Christ rather, is Truth and contradictory truths at the same time. This does not make sense. “I am the Truth”. He is not “I am contradictory Truths.”

 

[GreggAlvarez]

It doesn’t tell us to whom do we confess, just confess.

James would disagree with you. You correctly mentioned James 5:16, but let me give the context.

14 Is anyone among you sick? 6 He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. 7

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Presbyters would just be a fancy word for “priest”. The priests in accordance with “Whosoever sins you forgive are forgiven…” The priests are given the authority to do this. You might argue that “sick” is just implying a physical illness. BUT as sinners, are WE not sick too even if we have never once been to a hospital?

If you do not agree with this, then does God know your sins? Why would you “just confess” if God already knows your sins? Does God know your sins better than you do?

 

[joe370]

Dokimas, just a quick question: When the priest or bishop says, “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” regarding catholic belief, who do you believe is actually responsible for the divine forgiveness of sins? Is it the awesome power of Jesus, speaking through the instrument of His earthly ministry, as is the case with baptism, or do you believe it is the power of the priest or bishop that is responsible for the divine forgiveness?

 

[Protestant101]

Dokimas, just a quick question: When the priest or bishop says, “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” regarding catholic belief, who do you believe is actually responsible for the divine forgiveness of sins? Is it the awesome power of Jesus, speaking through the instrument of His earthly ministry, as is the case with baptism, or do you believe it is the power of the priest or bishop that is responsible for the divine forgiveness?

When the priest says that; he says it wrong, for he has “I” trouble.

 

[KathleenGee]

Out of context…I in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his apostles on the night of the Resurrection…and they taught and preached forgiveness and appointed their successors who were able to carry on their witness to Our Majesty the Lord.

St. Peter says in 2 Peter 2, 20-21…to not do personal interpretation of the Word of God!