Do Catholics and Orthodox already share Eucharistic communion?

[Hesychios]

Why blame Protestantism on the Catholics? …

Well, he does have a point.

I think the point there is that Protestantism and Roman Catholicism share a lot of theological constructs. Even when they disagree (which is often), they don’t argue the terms, they simply understand one another and disagree.

This is not possible between Protestants and Orthodox, nor Roman Catholics and Orthodox. There needs to be a clarification of the terms before a discussion can even commence, and still we are often talking past each other.

It happens to be a fact that most of the early Protestant leaders were ordained Roman Catholic priests (the big exception being Calvin, who was a lawyer by training). And when Protestantism originally spread, it spread from Roman Catholic communities to other Roman Catholic communities, but virtually stopped at the frontier and margins where the population was largely Orthodox.

One notable case is that when Protestantism reached Romania, it literally jumped over the Romanian Orthodox and gutted the Roman Catholic communities of Hungarians which lived in colonial enclaves deeper in the interior.

Protestantism is a threat to Orthodoxy of course, but it always speaks to a Latin mindset. It is the western alternative to Roman Catholicism.

 

[Warrenton]

And I do have to laugh at little at you calling us Old Calendarists Protestants when Protestants have more in common with the RC than they do with the Orthodox.

I have to agree. Catholics ought not to be calling Orthodox “Protestants.” First, it relegates the word to a term of abuse, which is offensive. Second, the rift between Catholics and Orthodox (who, really, are both as we ought to remember) is different than the rift between Protestants and Catholics, or Protestants and Orthodox. In politics, reductionism can be helpful, but in theology, it is not. The tendency has led to bitter, and often needless, disputes.

Had the RC not fallen away from the Church of Christ in the first place we wouldn’t have protestants at all. It is said the the RC and the Protestants are just two sides of the same coin.

This, though, goes too far. The catalyst for the Reformation was corruption in the German church. The petty princes of Germany would have been petty whether or not the Great Schism ever occurred. It was cultural. The spirit, however, was pure Renaissance. Everyone wanted to return to the classical antecedents. It was only a matter of time before someone applied that to matters ecclesiastical.

Plus, I do not think that the “RC” fell away from the Church of Christ. No Europeans were even living in Massachusetts at that time.

Cheers!

 

[Warrenton]

Protestantism is a threat to Orthodoxy of course, but it always speaks to a Latin mindset. It is the western alternative to Roman Catholicism.

This is true theologically speaking, but some Catholics contend that Protestantism is not at heart a theological issue, but instead is political. To that extent, it could be argued that Peter the Great was the Orthodox Henry VIII. Tsar Peter “improved” upon the Reformation in that he perceived correctly that over emphasis of theological reform would lead to civil strife, as it did in the Germanies, France, the British Isles and the Alps. Shrewdly, he focused on limiting the Church’s freedom, controlling the Church’s activity, and diverting the Church’s resources to the crown. Most Russians remained ignorant of his attack against the Church, and he maintained general peace.

A similar curtailment of the Church’s freedom took place in Ottoman lands. These changes that the Ottomans and Tsar Peter imposed on Orthodoxy took place mainly between 1470 and 1730, which is slightly longer but largely contemporaneous with the trajectory of Protestantism in the West.

I would suggest that the timing is not a mere coincidence, but rather is symptomatic of the modern attitude toward the Church.

In that regard, when some people deride Muslims as being backward with respect to religion, they are wrong.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, he does have a point.

I think the point there is that Protestantism and Roman Catholicism share a lot of theological constructs. Even when they disagree (which is often), they don’t argue the terms, they simply understand one another and disagree.

This is not possible between Protestants and Orthodox, nor Roman Catholics and Orthodox. There needs to be a clarification of the terms before a discussion can even commence, and still we are often talking past each other.

It happens to be a fact that most of the early Protestant leaders were ordained Roman Catholic priests (the big exception being Calvin, who was a lawyer by training). And when Protestantism originally spread, it spread from Roman Catholic communities to other Roman Catholic communities, but virtually stopped at the frontier and margins where the population was largely Orthodox.

One notable case is that when Protestantism reached Romania, it literally jumped over the Romanian Orthodox and gutted the Roman Catholic communities of Hungarians which lived in colonial enclaves deeper in the interior.

Protestantism is a threat to Orthodoxy of course, but it always speaks to a Latin mindset. It is the western alternative to Roman Catholicism.

I mean definitely as history played out, Protestantism was borne out of Roman Catholicism. So definitely their theological tradition, if they will admit to it, comes from Roman Catholicism. But to me it was a matter of time 'til the next heretic arises. If he arose from Orthodoxy, then we’d be having a very different discussion on the same theme here. Maybe my theological standing is not deep enough, but from where I stand I could see that someone like Luther could have easily protested against Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism. It wasn’t something inherent in Catholicism, just someone’s pride.

 

[Hesychios]

I mean definitely as history played out, Protestantism was borne out of Roman Catholicism. So definitely their theological tradition, if they will admit to it, comes from Roman Catholicism. But to me it was a matter of time 'til the next heretic arises. If he arose from Orthodoxy, then we’d be having a very different discussion on the same theme here. Maybe my theological standing is not deep enough, but from where I stand I could see that someone like Luther could have easily protested against Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism. It wasn’t something inherent in Catholicism, just someone’s pride.

Interesting comments, but I think this dismisses the actual complaints of the Protestant Reformers out of hand by accusing them of pride. I believe it was inherent in Roman Catholicism. We aren’t saying that the RC is responsible for just any kind of heresy or schism, but Protestantism could not have come from Orthodoxy, the two ancient churches were already far too different by that point.

There was certainly enough pride to go around on both sides, but the complaints about theology were mostly complaints about uniquely Roman Catholic theology. The complaints about corruption were mostly complaints about uniquely Roman Catholic forms of corruption. Ditto for the complaints about practices. When these reformers went east proclaiming their new found spiritual manna they were met with yawns.

The Roman Catholic church set up it’s own situation, often by doing things and thinking things alien to Holy Orthodoxy. Could there be new heretics in the future? Of course. But Orthodox make a practice of cutting them off quickly, something like quarantining the group until there is reassurance that the ideas or practices are not dangerous, which is actually one of the RC principle ‘complaints’ about Orthodoxy. They claim we are disunited.

Yes, we do have breaks in communion among us, just as the early church did many times. We don’t like it, it is an immune response inherent in the ecclesiology and it makes us uncomfortable. It is supposed to be uncomfortable. It works as a form of discipline. Perhaps one can say that instead of being focused on ‘understanding deeper’ through speculation and research something we have already received from the Apostles and been taught, we are more focused on being correct through study, and conforming to the Patristic witness. It makes us seem rigid and intolerant of the simplest of changes (for example witness the Dormition/Assumption issue and the RC routine willingness to think outside the box, and Orthodox objections), but in this way Orthodox hang together in a common faith.

Roman Catholics accuse us of being stagnant, we see it as faithfulness. The opposite of this faithfulness, the opposite of this ‘stagnancy’, is a type of creativeness and inventiveness and adventurist thinking in religion that allows ideas borrowed from philosophy and visions with messages and reinterpretation of scripture to influence belief and practices. Protesting Roman Catholic reformers of the sixteenth century decided the visions had to go.

The most notable schisms in Holy Orthodoxy have all been of a conservative nature, they have all been clarion calls to watch our step. This is why we had the Old Believer and the Old Calendarist, and even though they might force a break in communion we can see that these people don’t introduce any new theology, they are quite orthodox in their thinking, much like the SSPX is in the west.

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

I mean definitely as history played out, Protestantism was borne out of Roman Catholicism. So definitely their theological tradition, if they will admit to it, comes from Roman Catholicism. But to me it was a matter of time 'til the next heretic arises. If he arose from Orthodoxy, then we’d be having a very different discussion on the same theme here. Maybe my theological standing is not deep enough, but from where I stand I could see that someone like Luther could have easily protested against Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism. It wasn’t something inherent in Catholicism, just someone’s pride.

The next great heretic has arisen; his name was Athenagoras, Patriarch of Constantinople. His successor Bartholomew is simply taking his approach further. I want to ask forgiveness if I have caused anger to anyone. I am simply stating that the rapproachment with Rome that the world orthodox leaders are attempting, especially since rome won’t deny any of its heresies, is totally against the cannons that were given to us by the Father’s of the Church. That alone makes these patriarchs heretics, and by consequence no longer Christians (Orthodox). Let us pray to Christ our God that by the intercessions of His All Holy Mother that all heretics will see the Light and return to the Church, the Ark of our salvation.

The unworthy sinner,
Josh

Orthodoxy or Death (for me at least)

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

So you want me to buy that Old Calendarists are the real Orthodox and connonical Orthodoxy is in not? I didn’t fall off the turnip wagon yesterday you know.

It is funny that you use the term “Cannonical Orthodoxy” to describe the New Calendar World Orthodox church. What makes Orthodox cannonical is that they practice the Holy Cannons, which the “Cannonical Orthodox church” has ceased to do. When the Latin Pope visited Istanbul to celebrate the new calendar fest of St. Andrew with Bartholowmew in 2006 wearing an omophorion, being seated in the Bishop’s Throne, praying the “Our Father” and giving the kiss of peace to Bartholomew the Patriarch of Constantinople trampled the Cannons under-foot as if they were nothing but dung. At that point he said to the world “I AM NO LONGER ORTHODOX!” Remember John Bekkos and his stinking corpse. God have mercy that this will not be the fate of Bartholomew. Just because a Bishop says he is Orthodox, practices Orthodox services, prays Orthodox prayers, keeps Orthodox fest days and dresses like an Orthodox Bishop does not make him any more Orthodox than if we dressed up a donkey in an Omophorion and paraded him around singing “Eis polla Eti Despota.” An Orthodox Bishop/Patriarch will honor and keep the cannons of the Church, even if it cost him his life. As many of the Heiro-Martyrs did in Russia during the godless communist regime. So yes, the “Old Calendarist” Bishops and laity are the TRUE ORTHODOX, and are waiting on the day that the Patriarchs of the ancient sees will oneday return to the True Orthodox faith and abandon this godless pan-heresy of ecumenism. If you accept the main-stream orthodox patriarchs and bishops as being the True Orthodox, then I can see where you stand on the issue of ecumenism, and I can only warn you to be watchful for your soul. Grace only resides in the TRUE CHURCH. I don’t mean to seem harsh, but my concern sometimes causes me to be a bit over-zealous,

The SInner,
Josh

HOly Mother of God Save us

 

[Julia_Mae]

Orthodox aren’t non-Catholics.

All Christians are required by Christ to be charitable.

 

[louis91766]

When the Latin Pope visited Istanbul to celebrate the new calendar fest of St. Andrew with Bartholowmew in 2006 wearing an omophorion, being seated in the Bishop’s Throne, praying the “Our Father” and giving the kiss of peace to Bartholomew the Patriarch of Constantinople trampled the Cannons under-foot as if they were nothing but dung. At that point he said to the world “I AM NO LONGER ORTHODOX!” Remember John Bekkos and his stinking corpse. God have mercy that this will not be the fate of Bartholomew. Just because a Bishop says he is Orthodox, practices Orthodox services, prays Orthodox prayers, keeps Orthodox fest days and dresses like an Orthodox Bishop does not make him any more Orthodox than if we dressed up a donkey in an Omophorion and paraded him around singing “Eis polla Eti Despota.”

wow

 

[OrthoxICWR]

It is funny that you use the term “Cannonical Orthodoxy” to describe the New Calendar World Orthodox church. What makes Orthodox cannonical is that they practice the Holy Cannons, which the “Cannonical Orthodox church” has ceased to do. When the Latin Pope visited Istanbul to celebrate the new calendar fest of St. Andrew with Bartholowmew in 2006 wearing an omophorion, being seated in the Bishop’s Throne, praying the “Our Father” and giving the kiss of peace to Bartholomew the Patriarch of Constantinople trampled the Cannons under-foot as if they were nothing but dung. At that point he said to the world “I AM NO LONGER ORTHODOX!” Remember John Bekkos and his stinking corpse. God have mercy that this will not be the fate of Bartholomew. Just because a Bishop says he is Orthodox, practices Orthodox services, prays Orthodox prayers, keeps Orthodox fest days and dresses like an Orthodox Bishop does not make him any more Orthodox than if we dressed up a donkey in an Omophorion and paraded him around singing “Eis polla Eti Despota.” An Orthodox Bishop/Patriarch will honor and keep the cannons of the Church, even if it cost him his life. As many of the Heiro-Martyrs did in Russia during the godless communist regime. So yes, the “Old Calendarist” Bishops and laity are the TRUE ORTHODOX, and are waiting on the day that the Patriarchs of the ancient sees will oneday return to the True Orthodox faith and abandon this godless pan-heresy of ecumenism. If you accept the main-stream orthodox patriarchs and bishops as being the True Orthodox, then I can see where you stand on the issue of ecumenism, and I can only warn you to be watchful for your soul. Grace only resides in the TRUE CHURCH. I don’t mean to seem harsh, but my concern sometimes causes me to be a bit over-zealous,

The SInner,
Josh

HOly Mother of God Save us

The same is often said about the Old Calendarists…you can dress up and play Orthodox all you like…but if you have cut yourself off from the Church" it does not make you any more Orthodox than if we dressed up a donkey in an Omophorion and paraded him around singing “Eis polla Eti Despota.”".

 

[jam070406]

The next great heretic has arisen; his name was Athenagoras, Patriarch of Constantinople. His successor Bartholomew is simply taking his approach further. I want to ask forgiveness if I have caused anger to anyone. I am simply stating that the rapproachment with Rome that the world orthodox leaders are attempting, especially since rome won’t deny any of its heresies, is totally against the cannons that were given to us by the Father’s of the Church. That alone makes these patriarchs heretics, and by consequence no longer Christians (Orthodox). Let us pray to Christ our God that by the intercessions of His All Holy Mother that all heretics will see the Light and return to the Church, the Ark of our salvation.

The unworthy sinner,
Josh

Orthodoxy or Death (for me at least)

So by extension Catholics are not Christian and are destined to Hell. Wow, thank God you’re not like them Catholics, eh?

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

So by extension Catholics are not Christian and are destined to Hell. Wow, thank God you’re not like them Catholics, eh?

I am a Catholic, just not of the Latin kind. I am no man’s judge! I am more worthy to burn in hell than Judas himself. God have mercy on me! I pray that through the Prayers of the Mother of God that the RC and the Orthodox will be united again oneday, but not a false union. A union that wears the cloak of union but is only a union because the heresies that keep us apart are swept under the rug.

The sinner,
Josh

Most Holy Mother of God Save us!

 

[jam070406]

The next great heretic has arisen; his name was Athenagoras, Patriarch of Constantinople. His successor Bartholomew is simply taking his approach further. I want to ask forgiveness if I have caused anger to anyone. I am simply stating that the rapproachment with Rome that the world orthodox leaders are attempting, especially since rome won’t deny any of its heresies, is totally against the cannons that were given to us by the Father’s of the Church. That alone makes these patriarchs heretics, and by consequence no longer Christians (Orthodox). Let us pray to Christ our God that by the intercessions of His All Holy Mother that all heretics will see the Light and return to the Church, the Ark of our salvation.

The unworthy sinner,
Josh

Orthodoxy or Death (for me at least)

Before you continue on hurling anathemas, can you please provide by what authority you have to deem anything Rome teaches as a heresy? If you personally have no authority can you please provide the documents from ecumenical councils that have declared those doctrines that Rome teaches that are heretical? Thanks.

 

[jam070406]

I am a Catholic, just not of the Latin kind. I am no man’s judge! I am more worthy to burn in hell than Judas himself. God have mercy on me! I pray that through the Prayers of the Mother of God that the RC and the Orthodox will be united again oneday, but not a false union. A union that wears the cloak of union but is only a union because the heresies that keep us apart are swept under the rug.

The sinner,
Josh

Most Holy Mother of God Save us!

Immaculate heart of Mary pray for us!

What heresies? And by what authority does one have to declare what Rome teaches as heresy?

 

[jam070406]

I am a Catholic, just not of the Latin kind. I am no man’s judge! I am more worthy to burn in hell than Judas himself. God have mercy on me! I pray that through the Prayers of the Mother of God that the RC and the Orthodox will be united again oneday, but not a false union. A union that wears the cloak of union but is only a union because the heresies that keep us apart are swept under the rug.

The sinner,
Josh

Most Holy Mother of God Save us!

Yet, in a previous post you deemed yourself more Christian than Patriarch Bartholomew and said he was a heretic outside the Ark of salvation. I would like to know what makes you more Christian and how you know this?

 

[DL82]

One condition before the inter-Communion was an agreement on Christology. We are pretty sure that they accept and teach what the Catholic Church teaches.

I’m not confusing them. I’m just saying that between the Catholic Church and the various other true Apostolic Churches, there is in fact an inter-Communion going on as we type.

This raises an interesting question. If the EO and OO are reaching agreements on Christology, and the Catholic Church has already come to understand that OO Christology is not heretical, could there be a situation where the Catholic and OO are in communion, and the OO in communion with the Eastern Orthodox. Wouldn’t the laws of logic then dictate that if A=B and B=C then A=C, in other words, inter-communion?

Also, there are places in the world where Catholics and Orthodox are in communion. I can’t find a reference for it right now, but remember reading that the Assyrians and Chaldeans are allowed to receive communion in one another’s churches where they cannot find a church of their own communion. I think similar arrangements exist in some South Pacific nations for Catholics and Orthodox where churches of both communions are rare.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Yet, in a previous post you deemed yourself more Christian than Patriarch Bartholomew and said he was a heretic outside the Ark of salvation. I would like to know what makes you more Christian and how you know this?

His adherence to the Julian Calendar makes him extra holy

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

His adherence to the Julian Calendar makes him extra holy

I never once called myself “more holy” than anyone. My comments about Bartholomew and other Patriarchs of local churches were meant to convey that they have not adhered to the cannons of the Church concerning prayer with heretics (which we are forbidden to do), and that they are themselves espousing the “Branch Theory” which basically says that all churches are equal and that there is not One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I can’t remember the Russian Church website that lists all the cannons of the Eastern Church, but you can try to find a copy of the book “The Rudder” which does list exstensively the Cannons of the Eastern Orthodox Church. My problem is not with the church of Rome, per se, but with the Orthodox Patriarchs not heeding these Cannons which our Holy Fathers, and even the Apostles set down as the governing Cannons of the Church. I believe that the Holy Father is “Primer Inter Pares” and not the Supreme Pontiff. I apologize if I have scandalized anyone by my comments. It all started with me explaining to another poster that the Eastern and Western Churches still don’t share the Eucharist with one another. I however won’t apologize for speaknig what I believe is the truth without prettying it up for anyone. As far as my use of the Julian Calendar, please remember until Pope Gregory (which ever one he was) even the Latin Church used the Julian Calendar. At the inception of the Gregorian Calendar Europe itself had a hard time getting used to it, but eventually made it work. The reason Traditionalist Orthodox use the Julian Calendar is because it was the calendar used during the Seven Eccumenical Councils, and even the Apostles themselves, so we feel that we are simply carrying on the Tradition as it was handed down to us. Again, I am no man’s judge. That is God the Trinity alone. I am the cheif among sinners, and was only hoping to engage other liturgical christians in dialogue. I am no theologian, I am a simple sinner who sometimes wishes to share my opinions and hope to learn from the opinions of others. Please remember me in your prayers, and I will try to remember you in mine.

The unworthy sinner,
Josh

Most Holy Mother of God Save us!

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

Yet, in a previous post you deemed yourself more Christian than Patriarch Bartholomew and said he was a heretic outside the Ark of salvation. I would like to know what makes you more Christian and how you know this?/QUNot

I never said that I was more Christian. I simply said that if he has cut himself off from the Church by disregarding and ignoring the cannons that he does not like, then he is no longer and member of the Church, and being a memeber of the Church is what makes one Christian. We can not pick and choose which Holy Cannons we want to obey, and Economia does not give bishops the right to ignore the Cannons. I am not talking about the Cannons of the Latin church, but the 2000 year old Cannons of the Orthodox Church.

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

And the Latins can ignore this Charity in their responses when they misundertand what I am saying? By the way, the Orthodox are Catholic, we’re just not Latin (Roman Catholic). I appreciate the welcome, but I am confused that because misundertanding of what I am saying is being attacked and yet this comment was directed at me.