Do Catholics believe in imputed righteousness?

[PRmerger]

Last time I checked, “no one,” meant, “no one."

Clearly Scripture often uses hyperbole.

Romans says “all have sinned”, but, of course, you don’t believe that “all” means “all”, right?

(If you answer in the affirmative, then you’re going to have a bit of a hard time evangelizing a non-Christian, eh? He’s going to tell you: “hey, even your Scriptures say that ALL have sinned–so that means Jesus! ALL means ALL, right?”

Rather, it might be better to say, “Scripture often uses hyperbole.” You’ll have better positioning when evangelizing )

At any rate, this is beside the point because* no one* here (literally, no one ) is saying that you can be snatched from God’s hands against your will.

 

[lampalm]

Clearly Scripture often uses hyperbole.

Romans says “all have sinned”, but, of course, you don’t believe that “all” means “all”, right?

(If you answer in the affirmative, then you’re going to have a bit of a hard time evangelizing a non-Christian, eh? He’s going to tell you: “hey, even your Scriptures say that ALL have sinned–so that means Jesus! ALL means ALL, right?”

Rather, it might be better to say, “Scripture often uses hyperbole.” You’ll have better positioning when evangelizing )

I understand what you mean, but remember in that scripture God is looking at the world. Jesus is God so He is the one looking.

 

[PRmerger]

Last time I checked, “no one,” meant, “no one.”

I wonder what you think about this, WCH:

As it is written: "There is* no one **righteous, not even one;"*–Romans 3:10

and

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.–Luke 1:6

Do you think that the Bible contradicts itself? Is there no one righteous, but then again Scripture declare that, well, there* are *righteous?

Or is it possible that sometimes “no one” doesn’t really mean “no one”?

 

[guanophore]

I wonder what you think about this, WCH:

As it is written: "There is* no one ***righteous, not even one;"–Romans 3:10

and

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.–Luke 1:6

Do you think that the Bible contradicts itself? Is there no one righteous, but then again Scripture declare that, well, there* are *righteous?

Or is it possible that sometimes “no one” doesn’t really mean “no one”?

Here is another example:

Matt 3:4-6

4 Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and** all Judea and all the region about the Jordan**, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 7:28-30

28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

“All” apparently does not always mean “all”.

 

[lampalm]

I wonder what you think about this, WCH:

As it is written: "There is* no one ***righteous, not even one;"–Romans 3:10

and

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.–Luke 1:6

Do you think that the Bible contradicts itself? Is there no one righteous, but then again Scripture declare that, well, there* are *righteous?

Or is it possible that sometimes “no one” doesn’t really mean “no one”?

This would probably be a better verse for you to sight-

And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
Luke 2:1
KJV

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Luke 2:1
NASB

All did not mean all, but just the Roman empire.

 

[PRmerger]

I understand what you mean, but remember in that scripture God is looking at the world. Jesus is God so He is the one looking.

Not really seeing this, lampalm. St. Paul is writing, after the death/crucifixion/resurrection of Christ, that all have sinned.

Not seeing where it mentions that God is looking at the world and that this means that Jesus is the exception from this “all”.

 

[lampalm]

They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.–Luke 1:6

Not to take this too far off topic.

Do Catholics believe that a person can be, “righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord” without Jesus death on the cross?

 

[lampalm]

Not really seeing this, lampalm. St. Paul is writing, after the death/crucifixion/resurrection of Christ, that all have sinned.

Not seeing where it mentions that God is looking at the world and that this means that Jesus is the exception from this “all”.

St. Paul the Apostle is quoting a psalm.

The LORD looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Psalms 14:2-3

 

[guanophore]

This would probably be a better verse for you to sight-

And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
Luke 2:1
KJV

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Luke 2:1
NASB

All did not mean all, but just the Roman empire.

Good one!

 

[guanophore]

Not to take this too far off topic.

Do Catholics believe that a person can be, “righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord” without Jesus death on the cross?

God has always saved people the same way, by grace, through faith. If it were not possible to walk blamelessly, then Enoch and Elijah could not have been taken up.

In the reference given in Luke, were these people able to do this prior to the death of Jesus on the cross?

 

[lampalm]

God has always saved people the same way, by grace, through faith. If it were not possible to walk blamelessly, then Enoch and Elijah could not have been taken up.

In the reference given in Luke, were these people able to do this prior to the death of Jesus on the cross?

I’m honestly not sure.
I am asking for the Catholic understanding?

I do know that if righteousness could be achieved without the cross then Christ did not have to die.

 

[guanophore]

I'm honestly not sure.

The two people spoken about in this passage are the parents of John the Baptist. Given the historical timeline, did their blameless walk before God occur before the Crucifixion of Christ?

I am asking for the Catholic understanding?

The NT is a Catholic book, Lampalm. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. It was written by, for, and about Catholics. It reflects the Catholic understanding.

We walk before God by grace, through faith, and thus are able to keep His commandments.

John 14:15-21

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.,. 21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

1 John 5:1-5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I do know that if righteousness could be achieved without the cross then Christ did not have to die.

The OT saints sought for Christ in faith, and His righteousness was applied to them at the time of the resurrection.

 

[lampalm]

The OT saints sought for Christ in faith, and His righteousness was applied to them at the time of the resurrection.

Then I presume it would be the same case with the parents of John the Baptist.

 

[guanophore]

Then I presume it would be the same case with the parents of John the Baptist.

So, at what point were they walking blameless before God?

Luke 1:5-7
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years.

 

[lampalm]

So, at what point were they walking blameless before God?

Luke 1:5-7
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years.

The OT saints sought for Christ in faith, and His righteousness was applied to them at the time of the resurrection.

I agree with this quote. So I assume it would be the same situation?
Like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Job. Right?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Catholics and Orthodox Christians do not believe one can be made righteous without the Cross. The Cross is salvation itself. And sanctifying grace begins at baptism, is increased through the sacramental life with confession, the Eucharist, marriage, confirmation, prayer, the sacramentals, and an ever-increasing faith in the Lord. Catholics put more stress on works than Protestants do of course. The stress is really different. Protestants believe that human beings get baptized and salvation takes place at that moment as Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Then they begin to grow in grace and get sanctified. So really with the Protestant thinking salvation comes first, sanctification second. With Catholicism baptism is the beginning of the divine life. Sanctification must take place before salvation. Salvation isn’t assured or the beginning. It is the end game. Sanctification is a must for salvation whereas in Protestantism sanctification is the outcome or benefit but not the requirement.

I’m honestly not sure.
I am asking for the Catholic understanding?

I do know that if righteousness could be achieved without the cross then Christ did not have to die.

 

[lampalm]

Catholics and Orthodox Christians do not believe one can be made righteous without the Cross. The Cross is salvation itself. And sanctifying grace begins at baptism, is increased through the sacramental life with confession, the Eucharist, marriage, confirmation, prayer, the sacramentals, and an ever-increasing faith in the Lord. Catholics put more stress on works than Protestants do of course. The stress is really different. Protestants believe that human beings get baptized and salvation takes place at that moment as Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Then they begin to grow in grace and get sanctified. So really with the Protestant thinking salvation comes first, sanctification second. With Catholicism baptism is the beginning of the divine life. Sanctification must take place before salvation. Salvation isn’t assured or the beginning. It is the end game. Sanctification is a must for salvation whereas in Protestantism sanctification is the outcome or benefit but not the requirement.

Good post

Do Catholics acknowledge (understand?) the bible teaches you are already saved, you are being saved, you will be saved?

What happens to a Catholic that dies before final sanctification? Are they not saved?
I understand the bible to teach that a person has already been saved even if they died before final sanctification.

 

[Carlan]

Catholics and Orthodox Christians do not believe one can be made righteous without the Cross. The Cross is salvation itself. And sanctifying grace begins at baptism, is increased through the sacramental life with confession, the Eucharist, marriage, confirmation, prayer, the sacramentals, and an ever-increasing faith in the Lord. Catholics put more stress on works than Protestants do of course. The stress is really different. Protestants believe that human beings get baptized and salvation takes place at that moment as Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Then they begin to grow in grace and get sanctified. So really with the Protestant thinking salvation comes first, sanctification second. With Catholicism baptism is the beginning of the divine life. Sanctification must take place before salvation. Salvation isn’t assured or the beginning. It is the end game. Sanctification is a must for salvation whereas in Protestantism sanctification is the outcome or benefit but not the requirement.

Thank you Gurney for this most common sense Catholic explanation of infused righteousness.The kids must love you! :thumbsup:
Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Good post

Do Catholics acknowledge (understand?) the bible teaches you are already saved, you are being saved, you will be saved?

What happens to a Catholic that dies before final sanctification? Are they not saved?
I understand the bible to teach that a person has already been saved even if they died before final sanctification.

yes Lampalm,Sanctifying Grace purifies us through God’s gifts of Sacraments, if purification isn’t realized before death there is the purification state Catholics call Purgatory which finishes the job. Peace, Carlan

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Already saved? No. Being saved? Yes. Final salvation? Only God knows, literally. Hopefully with sanctifying grace, the sacraments, and walking with Christ, yes, one will be saved. It is a mystery who is and who isn’t, from the Catholic standpoint. Once saved always saved is not Catholic thinking at all.

Good post

Do Catholics acknowledge (understand?) the bible teaches you are already saved, you are being saved, you will be saved?

What happens to a Catholic that dies before final sanctification? Are they not saved?
I understand the bible to teach that a person has already been saved even if they died before final sanctification.