Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[BereanRuss]

JL: Not so, some leaders believed, Jn12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.

Notice the leaders did not confess Him out of fear. So the only teaching that was heard from the leaders by the common folk was that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the OT.

 

[BereanRuss]

You forgot to ask why it was false. This isn’t the reason.

A priest in not required for a valid baptism

In marraige, the priest is only a witness. The couple administers the sacrament to each other.

Then the priest in indeed a mediator between you and God for the very life you need comes only through the priest via the Eucharist.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2:5]

 

[BereanRuss]

I am saying that the statements you posted previously are not true.

God can absolve the sins of anyone He likes, however He chooses.

God chooses to transform the bread and the wine through an ordained priest.

If the Bible honestly said that, I would believe it as you do but the Bible say exactly yhe opposite:

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2:5]

 

[BereanRuss]

The priest is absolutely necessary for the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine; if he is not to do as Christ did, then who???

Again…Last supper:

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”

THere is no earthly priest in this verse Joe.

 

[NotWorthy]

My interpretation of the word is NOT infallible, that is why I quote the “Word of God” which is infallible. Ralph

So Ralph, what if you come to a completely different understanding of what your pastor does for a verse?

For instance, you and BereanRuss seem to have come to completely different interpretations of John 20:20-23. You owned up to the fact that the Apostles had the authority to forgive peoples’ sins? BR indicates that they are simply declaring something that is already true - they are affirming someone salvation.

At first this may seem to be trivial, but there’s a huge difference.

 

[NotWorthy]

Regardless, God can and does baptize with His Spirit as He see fit. What is your point anyway? Are you saying that God only gives His Spirit to those who are baptized in the CC?

Yes, in the normative case. But there are two things you need to understand.

1. Anyone baptized with water and with the Trinitarian formula is validly baptized into the Catholic Church. If an athiest baptized his father who was dying and wished to be baptized before he passed away while in hospice care, even if the athiest didn’t believe the words he was saying, his father has been validly baptized in the Catholic Church.
2. Jesus is in no means constrained by the rules He lays out for His Church. That’s why I used the term, “normative”. Therefore, someone can receive the Holy Spirit fully and never been baptized, or heard the Gospel, or even knew Who Jesus was? God is not bound by those rules He lays out for the Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

I know this thread will be closed shortly, so I thought I might give it one more try (for old time’s sake!) -

Originally Posted by NotWorthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*BereanRuss, (and even Ralphy… for you still haven’t answered the question, yet)

You may have answered this already, but this thread is going so fast…

How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?

In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.

How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching.*

 

[joe370]

THere is no earthly priest in this verse Joe.

Like I said: that’s cool…if you don’t want to believe or respect what the catholic and eastern orthodox priests do, when they do as Jesus said, when He said: do this in remembrance of me, that is certainly your prerogative.

Russ, did you post an answer to the question I pm’d you? Ilooked but could not find it; that was why I pm’d you the question.

Based on you suppositions, It sounds as if Jesus’ One established church from the word go, at Pentecost, was duped by the evil one for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and still continues to be duped. If you are right then calling mere bread the flesh of God, and consuming it as God, is idolatry, which she as the bride of Christ was/is guilty of, since Pentecost; if you were right I would not be a Christian; this is a very serious matter! If you are right then millions of Christians were guilty of idolatry as well, over a 2000 year period, including those leaders who were disciples of the apostles!
Phew…Gosh, I hope you are wrong my friend, for the sake of so many reputedly duped catholc Christians and eastern orthodox Christians.

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m curious (and I don’t know if its been addressed in this thread)
How does “Minister of Reconciliation” relate to what Catholics teach is a “priest”?

 

[joe370]

Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation, as ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through them. If that’s not intercessory/mediatory work, then I don’t know what is!

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:18

 

[joe370]

Russ, I am a little confused. You claim that the earthly priesthood was made up essentially, by the C.C., and is not to be believed because the word priest is not used to identify the C.C. minister, even though the function of that priesthood can be clearly identified in the bible…can be associated with the bishop and presbyter, yet the church to which you belong, believes in the rapture, and I totally agree with your church, since the rapture can clearly be identified in the bible…can be associated with the end times, just not with her interpretation, even though that word can be found nowhere in the bible. What’s the difference?

 

[PRmerger]

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [1 Tim 2:5]

If you take Scripture verses out of isolation, you can come up with all sorts of goofy ideas.

An atheist could take the verse, “All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God” and claim that the Bible says Jesus was a sinner. After all, it says what it says. ALL have sinned.

Do you believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Russ?

 

[jlhargus]

Notice the leaders did not confess Him out of fear. So the only teaching that was heard from the leaders by the common folk was that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the OT.

JL: Please show me that evidence, otherwise it is only your opinion

 

[jlhargus]

Sin is the result of the LAW. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

JL: Sin is not a result of the law, the law is a result of sin, to teach men certain things are wrong or sin, [Gal 3:29 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was ADDED BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.] Where there is no law there is no transgression, because no one knew what sin was, till the law taught them. Men sinned but were not held accountable because they were not aware they were sinning, [Rm5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW. Jn15:22 IF I HAD NOT COME AND SPOKEN to them, THEY WOULD NOT BE GUILTY OF SIN. NOW, however, they have NO EXCUSE FOR THEIR SIN.]

Adam was given the law not to eat of the tree. When Adam ate he sinned, because he knew God commanded him not to eat of the tree. So from Adam to Moses there was no law, so in a sense no sin, because there was no teacher, law. Christians have a moral law and a teacher, those whom Christ SENT to teach ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING. That law is summed up and fulfilled by love, so any serious violation of love is a sin. Jn15:17 THESE THINGS I COMMAND YOU, that ye LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Rm13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except THE CONTINUING DEBT TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER, for HE WHO LOVES HIS FELLOWMAN HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” "Do not covet,"and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself.“10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. Rm15:10 IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 MY COMMAND is this: LOVE EACH OTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. Jn14:21 WHOEVER HAS MY COMMANDS AND OBEYS THEM, he IS THE ONE WHO LOVES ME. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jn14:23 JESUS REPLIED, "IF ANYONE LOVES ME, HE WILL OBEY MY TEACHING. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE ME WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHING. 1Cor7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. KEEPING GOD’S COMMANDS IS WHAT COUNTS. Jn15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. IF THEY OBEYED MY TEACHING, THEY WILL OBEY YOURS ALSO. Jn14:24 HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE ME WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHING. THESE WORDS YOU HEAR are not my own; they BELONG TO THE FATHER WHO SENT ME.

 

[BereanRuss]

Jesus is in no means constrained by the rules He lays out for His Church. That’s why I used the term, “normative”. Therefore, someone can receive the Holy Spirit fully and never been baptized, or heard the Gospel, or even knew Who Jesus was? God is not bound by those rules He lays out for the Church.

If Jesus is not a man of His word, how can He judge the world of being liars?

The only reason that you believe that Jesus can say one thing and so another is because His words do not agree with your theology. So rather than change your beliefs, you accuse Jesus of not meaning what He says.

If Jesus’ plain words have no true meaning then who decides what He really meant?

 

[jlhargus]

No. Your friend has equal access to God as you do if you are believers. If your friend required you to pray because he did not have access to God, then you would be mediating for him.

JL: We all have the same access as any pastor, priest or pope, but we all still mediate or intercede for one another. By your personal definition then when a Christian prays for those who do not know Christ they are mediating as that person does not have access. Tell me what does Christ do to mediate for us? When the priest mediates at mass, he is the sacramental sign of Christ mediating, just as baptismal water is the sacramental sign of the action of Holy Spirit. It is Christ himself offering the sacrifice. I still have direct access to the Father thru Christ, plus I mediate when I pray for anyone.

 

[NotWorthy]

If Jesus is not a man of His word, how can He judge the world of being liars?

The only reason that you believe that Jesus can say one thing and so another is because His words do not agree with your theology. So rather than change your beliefs, you accuse Jesus of not meaning what He says.

If Jesus’ plain words have no true meaning then who decides what He really meant?

Hmmm… What did Jesus say, “For all things are possible with God”. I hold Jesus to his word, too, brother!

 

[BereanRuss]

Based on you suppositions, It sounds as if Jesus’ One established church from the word go, at Pentecost, was duped by the evil one for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and still continues to be duped.

When you change the definition of the word “church”, your theology becomes distorted. The “church” are those who are born of the Spirit. Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot be born again by the will of any man through baptism, you can only be born into His kingdom by His will.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:12, 13]

 

[BereanRuss]

I’m curious (and I don’t know if its been addressed in this thread)
How does “Minister of Reconciliation” relate to what Catholics teach is a “priest”?

The ministry of reconciliation is related to the preaching of the gospel.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [2 Cor 5:18,19]

 

[BereanRuss]

Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation, as ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through them. If that’s not intercessory/mediatory work, then I don’t know what is!

Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.