Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[fbl9]

At any rate, questions aside for now, there are additional problems with believing that Jesus was speaking of the Eucharist when He said, “…unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…”

First are the problems I have already stated – If Jesus is speaking literally than He is contradicting Himself and others such as the Apostle Paul.

But there are other problems with this interpretation as well for the CC refers to protestants as “separated brethren” indicating that even though they are “separated”, they remain “brethren”. However, Jesus said, “Amen, amen…” indicating that His word is unchangeable and irreversible.

Therefore even the CC does not take Jesus’ words literally for if the church truly believed Jesus’ word they would not call those whom Jesus has clearly excluded from His kingdom, “brethren”.

Not only does the CC refer to protestants as “brethren”, but the CC also teaches that even some Muslims and Jews and even pagans are part of the CC even though Jesus clearly excludes them from His kingdom when He loudly proclaims, “Amen, amen…”

But there is another problem with this theology. This theology is opposed to the love and grace of God.

Why would God allow His Son to suffer humiliation and rejection and crucifixion and shame – all for the purpose of saving whoever calls upon His name – only to reject them from His kingdom because they failed to be part of a religious ritual? God desires all men to be saved and is not willing that any perish.

Certainly God desires His church to celebrate communion and to remember Him in the breaking of bread but God has redeemed us from the law. Why would God redeem us from one law only to condemn us with a new law? This is an argument against the love and mercy and grace of God.

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)… [Gal 3:13]

1. If Jesus is speaking literally in John 6:53 He is clearly contradicting both Himself and the teachings of the Apostles whom He inspired to write the NT.
2. Even the CC does not take Jesus’ words literally for the CC clearly teaches that protestants and others are part of the universal church. The CC includes in the universal church those whom Jesus clearly excluded from His kingdom when He said, “Amen, amen…”
3. This interpretation opposes the love and mercy of God. It declares that God is more concerned with ritual then with humility and brokenness and faith for it teaches that God does indeed exclude some, even those who have called upon the name of Jesus, from eternal life for failing to receive the Eucharist in the CC.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [John 3:17]

You hypocrit,you condenm catholics for beleiving what we beleive,yet say we teach against the word of God when we “according to you condemn others” or say that they can be saved.

Where is there any condridiction between a littral belief and what the apostle’s taught? There is none ,give it up and admit that you are fighting the truth.

where does any teaching of the church go against God’s love and mercy? oh yeah when it says that other can be saved without the church?

 

[ralphy]

I think you are confused, Ralph. All Scripture is inspired, yes, that’s true.

But you asked for an example of Sacred Tradition. The Canon of the Bible is Sacred Tradition. For while the Holy Spirit was inspiring the authors to write the Holy Book of Scripture, He never inspired anyone to make a Table of Contents… Oh right, but He did! He inspired the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to determine the Canon of Scripture.

And there’s one little tid-bit that you may not realize. The Catholic Church chose Scripture that agreed with Her Sacred Traditions! That was one of the main factors in determining Scripture.

Are you saying that scripture is based on something that agreed with “scared tradition”? Scripture is the word of God, tradition is based on MANS word. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Read posts 1 - 1100. You’ll find it. “Do this in memory of me”. Look up the parts about “poeien” and “anamnesis”.

I was hoping that you would give me some “scripture” to show me where the priest gets this power to turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Maybe it is very hard to find scripture for this “power” is it ?. Ralph

 

[jmcrae]

At any rate, questions aside for now, there are additional problems with believing that Jesus was speaking of the Eucharist when He said, “…unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…”

First are the problems I have already stated – If Jesus is speaking literally than He is contradicting Himself and others such as the Apostle Paul.

There is no contradiction. Jesus made His meaning clear when He showed the Apostles the transformed bread and told them, “This is My body” and when He held up the chalice and told them, “This is My blood.” At that time, it became clear to the Apostles, how it is that we may eat Christ’s body and drink Christ’s blood, as He had commanded them to do, just a few days previous. St. Paul warns us that we must approach the Eucharistic banquet with a clear conscience, and with reverence, or otherwise be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ - which would be physically impossible, if the bread and wine were only symbols - you cannot profane a symbol.

This is well understood by most modern Protestant communities, since they not only have no fear of profanation from human beings (some are even proud to boast that anyone who is breathing may receive Holy Communion in their churches - there is not even any requirement for baptism, or faith, let alone doctrinal unity), they actually throw the sacred species into the garbage, or else feed it to animals, if there is any left over after their services of Holy Communion.

But there are other problems with this interpretation as well for the CC refers to protestants as “separated brethren” indicating that even though they are “separated”, they remain “brethren”. However, Jesus said, “Amen, amen…” indicating that His word is unchangeable and irreversible.

No one has ever claimed that Protestants get to Heaven on the basis of being Protestant. IF they are saved (which is by no means certain) it is by being joined in some unknown way to the Catholic Church.

Therefore even the CC does not take Jesus’ words literally for if the church truly believed Jesus’ word they would not call those whom Jesus has clearly excluded from His kingdom, “brethren”.

They are “brethren” if they have been baptized, they pray, and if they read the Scriptures, because these are Catholic activities. But they are “separated” because they typically do no more than these things, in addition to the fact that they are out of communion with Rome.

Not only does the CC refer to protestants as “brethren”, but the CC also teaches that even some Muslims and Jews and even pagans are part of the CC even though Jesus clearly excludes them from His kingdom when He loudly proclaims, “Amen, amen…”

I recommend that in order to understand this problem better, you should sit down in a quiet place, with about an hour of uninterrupted time, and read The Decree on Ecumenism from the Second Vatican Council.

But there is another problem with this theology. This theology is opposed to the love and grace of God.

Why would God allow His Son to suffer humiliation and rejection and crucifixion and shame – all for the purpose of saving whoever calls upon His name – only to reject them from His kingdom because they failed to be part of a religious ritual? God desires all men to be saved and is not willing that any perish.

God saves communities - not individuals - except insofar as they are members of saving communities. God saved the Ark of Noah - as individuals, Noah and his family were saved because they were in the Ark; not because they had made individual statements of faith in God. It was their faith in God that got them on to the Ark to begin with, and it’s also probably what kept them there, but if they had at any time in their journey leaped off of the Ark and into the floodwaters, they would have been lost, regardless of any good intentions or individual relationships with God.

God saved the family of Abraham - but when some were cast out of the family (even though it was because of jealousy, and not because of their own fault), they were no longer members of God’s people; they became counted as enemies of God’s people.

God saved the nation of Israel - but when Korah challenged the authority of Moses because his way was better (which it was; there is no doubt that, all things being equal, Korah would have gotten them into the Promised Land a lot faster than Moses did) God smote him and his followers. (See Numbers 16)

Jesus (God) established the Church, with Peter as its Pope, and the Sacraments, for us to be members of it, so that we can be saved.

 

[BereanRuss]

Where is there any condridiction between a littral belief and what the apostle’s taught?

(Copied from a previous post…)

If Jesus is speaking literally in this passage then He is contradicting MANY other scriptures…

…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Rom 10:9…]

Notice that it is not what goes into the mouth that saves a man but what comes out of the mouth saves. If you confess with your mouth…

Jesus said, “Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?”

Nothing you eat can save you. Only what you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth can save you.

 

[cazayoux]

Are you saying that scripture is based on something that agreed with “scared tradition”? Scripture is the word of God, tradition is based on MANS word. Ralph

Ah … here is your prejudice against ‘tradition’.
You can’t see that the tradition of the apostles is FROM GOD.
What scripture warns against are man-made traditions that negate the Word of God.

The Catholic Church’s best tradition IS scripture.
If it were not for Catholic Tradition (capital ‘T’), you would not have the bible.
The only reason you KNOW that scripture is the inerrant Word of God is because the Catholic Church says it is.

God inspired the scripture.
God inspired the Church to know what writings were and were not inspired.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

I was hoping that you would give me some “scripture” to show me where the priest gets this power to turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Maybe it is very hard to find scripture for this “power” is it ?. Ralph

The Apostles received power from Jesus to do this, when He commanded them, “Do this in anamnesis of Me.” (I Corinthians 11:24)

They passed this power down by means of the Sacrament of Ordination.

 

[cazayoux]

(Copied from a previous post…)

If Jesus is speaking literally in this passage then He is contradicting MANY other scriptures…

…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Rom 10:9…]

You keep seeing John 6 taken literally as being in contradiction with Romans 10, but this is because you have an either/or mentality.
Catholics say both/and.

There are many things scripture says are necessary … will you choose only one of them, or listen to ALL of them?

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope. (Heb 3:6)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)

Catholics believe ALL OF SCRIPTURE, while you seem to pick and choose.

Notice that it is not what goes into the mouth that saves a man but what comes out of the mouth saves. If you confess with your mouth…

Jesus said, “Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?”

Nothing you eat can save you. Only what you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth can save you.

You completely take Mark 7 out of context by pasting one verse.

Mark 7:18-19
[18] And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him,
[19] since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

The whole context is about showing that ‘all foods are clean’ and has nothing to do with Jesus saying ‘eat my flesh’ or ‘take and eat’… unless you think it is Jesus that is contradicting scripture.

Context, context, context.

michel

 

[ralphy]

Ah … here is your prejudice against ‘tradition’.
You can’t see that the tradition of the apostles is FROM GOD.
What scripture warns against are man-made traditions that negate the Word of God.

The Catholic Church’s best tradition IS scripture.
If it were not for Catholic Tradition (capital ‘T’), you would not have the bible.
The only reason you KNOW that scripture is the inerrant Word of God is because the Catholic Church says it is.

God inspired the scripture.
God inspired the Church to know what writings were and were not inspired.

michel

I am surprised that you would mentioned “man made traditions”, the Roman catholic church is full of them, I have been there and I am familiar with most of them. The catechism is full of man made rules. Ralph

 

[BereanRuss]

No one has ever claimed that Protestants get to Heaven on the basis of being Protestant. IF they are saved (which is by no means certain) it is by being joined in some unknown way to the Catholic Church.

Then why do you call them “brethren”?

They are “brethren” if they have been baptized, they pray, and if they read the Scriptures, because these are Catholic activities. But they are “separated” because they typically do no more than these things, in addition to the fact that they are out of communion with Rome.

Jesus excluded all who do not take communion in the CC when He said, “Amen, amen”. Why don’t you believe the Lord when He says, “Amen?”

God saves communities - not individuals - except insofar as they are members of saving communities…]

The Apostle Paul said, “…all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved…”.

God saved the family of Abraham - but when some were cast out of the family (even though it was because of jealousy, and not because of their own fault), they were no longer members of God’s people; they became counted as enemies of God’s people.

God saved all who put the blood on the door at Passover. Anyone with the lamb’s blood on the door was saved, Egyptians included. Protestants are covered in the blood of Christ.

God saved the nation of Israel - but when Korah challenged the authority of Moses because his way was better (which it was; there is no doubt that, all things being equal, Korah would have gotten them into the Promised Land a lot faster than Moses did) God smote him and his followers. (See Numbers 16)

And Jesus condemned the successors of Moses and the sons of the Prophets.

Jesus (God) established the Church, with Peter as its Pope, and the Sacraments, for us to be members of it, so that we can be saved.

God has established His word above His name.

 

[BereanRuss]

You keep seeing John 6 taken literally as being in contradiction with Romans 10, but this is because you have an either/or mentality. Catholics say both…

It is impossible for God to lie. If salvation is not through believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth but is by keeping the commandments instead then God is a liar and Christ died in vain…

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." [Gal 2:21]

 

[cazayoux]

It is impossible for God to lie. If salvation is not through believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth but is by keeping the commandments instead then God is a liar and Christ died in vain…

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." [Gal 2:21]

Salvation IS through believing with the hear and confessing with the mouth!!
This is NOT the only thing scripture requires of us.
It doesn’t say “Salvation is through believing with the hear and confessing with the mouth only”.
You add to scripture to read it this way.

Cherry picking like you do gives you a kindergarten theology.
You over-simplify … basically removing all of the rest of scripture to keep only that one line.
Read ALL of scripture.
Those who have ears ought to here.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I am surprised that you would mentioned “man made traditions”, the Roman catholic church is full of them, I have been there and I am familiar with most of them. The catechism is full of man made rules. Ralph

Man-made traditions are not bad if they do not negate the Word of God.
An example … Wednesday night bible study… not in the bible … a man-made tradition, but a good one.

Sola scriptura … not in the bible … a man-made tradition, and a bad one since it goes against scripture!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Man-made traditions are not bad if they do not negate the Word of God.
An example … Wednesday night bible study… not in the bible … a man-made tradition, but a good one.

Sola scriptura … not in the bible … a man-made tradition, and a bad one since it goes against scripture!

michel

The canon of the bible … a man-made tradition, and a good one since it does not negate the Word of God.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

And Jesus condemned the successors of Moses and the sons of the Prophets.

Jesus condemned their bad practices, not their teachings.

Matt 23:3
[3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

Then why do you call them “brethren”?

Because they are baptized, they pray to Jesus, and they read the Scriptures.

Jesus excluded all who do not take communion in the CC when He said, “Amen, amen”. Why don’t you believe the Lord when He says, “Amen?”

Yep. That’s one of the reasons why I forsook Protestantism and became a Catholic in 2001.

The Apostle Paul said, “…all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved…”.

He also said, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord.” I Corinthians 11:27

God saved all who put the blood on the door at Passover. Anyone with the lamb’s blood on the door was saved,

Korah did this, and yet in the end the Lord smote him - he did not make it to the Promised Land.

Egyptians included.

No, the sign of the blood was for the salvation of Israel, only. The Egyptians could not have done this.

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus Himself explained that the words he was speaking were not literal but were, “spirit and life.”

If Jesus is speaking literally in this passage then He is contradicting MANY other scriptures…

…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Rom 10:9…]

Notice that it is not what goes into the mouth that saves a man but what comes out of the mouth saves. If you confess with your mouth….

That’s right. Believe and confess an you will be saved. In other words, its not salvation through faith alone, but through faith and confession. Because as you have stated, it is “what comes out of the mouth that saves.”

Jesus said, “Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?”
Nothing you eat can save you. Only what you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth can save you

First of all, you are taking a passage out of context and your application of it is wrong. Jesus is talking about those who believed that unclean food defiles you, not that food saves you. He says that food does not defile you, only that which come from the heart. Secondly, Christ here is speaking of regular food, not the Bread that comes from Heaven (His Body and Blood). And finally, only one who already has faith can partake of His Body and Blood. Therefore, receiving the Body and Blood of Christ properly is an act of faith and any spiritual blessing given in the Sacrament can only be subjectively appropriated through a living faith.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let me repeat what said earlier since there was no real reply:

This thread is supposed to be about John 6:53 and yet I haven’t seen a response to post #s 878-884?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5090781#post5090781

God Bless,
Michael

 

[twb1621]

You know what, I get tired of the statement “the catholic church teaches”. You are absolutely wrong in this statement. The “ROMAN catholic church teaches” is the correct statement you should be making, as that is who you are refering to. The “catholic church” are those who are saved and belong to the body of Christ, of which I belong, this is the universal church of God. Ralph

Ralphy, you have a serious serious problem with failing to accept your own responsibility and your passing off the blame onto the CC for your ignorance of the Faith when you “belonged”. You have placed the blame on the CC for your not being able to “find” your way when in fact it was your responsibility to continue seeking God and the fact is, you have run and hid from every scripture verse I posted to you that conflicts with what you claim scripture means. Now unless you can refer to those verses I offered for an explanation of your “understanding” of them in light of the fact scripture does not conflict with itself, you really should accept your own failures and work toward finding the truth and it is not what you are pushing.

Remember this ralphy;

Jesus said;
“…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them."

Ralphy, In what you have chosen to do and are doing according to your own words in earlier posts, have you considered you have become one of those who abandoned the Bride of Christ to become one of the “perverters of truth”, as Jesus Himself referred?
consider it Ralphy,
*________________________ *

**Originally Posted by ralphy **
You are mistaken my friend, verse 20 refers to those who are saved, they are in good soil planted in Christ through “the word of God” and are producing good fruit. There is no reference to them turning away from the Lord. We are kept by the power of God, and nothing can take us out of His hand. Ralph

You are sadly yet defiantly wrong my wayward brother and you should read it repeatedly until you get it correctly. It speaks of those who were Baptized and accepted as chosen with Moses in both the OT and then those in the NT. It speaks to those who are Baptized in the Holy Spirit and warns them of what could be and what not to become. You can not say any longer you didn’t have the opportunity to learn the truth.

1 Corinthians CH10; 1 1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 2 and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 All ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, 2 and the rock was the Christ. 5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert. 63 These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did. 7 And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel.” 8 Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day. 9 **Let us not test Christ **4 as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents. 10 Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer. 11 These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 5**12 **Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

---

Continued;

 

[twb1621]

Ralphy;
No, Ralphy didn’t come here looking for answers, he came trying to misguide others into his way of thinking but for someone so concerned for his eternal life as he claims to be he should remember as he trys to do so;

Jesus said;
“…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them."

Ralphy, In what you have chosen to do and are doing according to your own words in earlier posts, have you considered you have become one of those who abandoned the Bride of Christ to become one of the “perverters of truth”, as Jesus Himself referred?
consider it Ralphy,

---

Does your Bible have these verses Ralphy? Every one of them refers to the importance of good works with Faith.

Matthew CH 6: 2 “When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites 2 do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, 4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
“17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you may not appear to be fasting, except to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees what is hidden will repay you.”

Matthew CH 5: 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. 16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.”

Matthew CH 7: 15 9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them.”

Matthew CH 23: “8 6 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. 10 Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant.”
John CH 14: 12 “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.”

Acts CH 26: 17 “I shall deliver you from this people and from the Gentiles to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes 5 that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may obtain forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been consecrated by faith in me.’ 19 "And so, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. 20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.”

continued…