Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[joe370]

You said:

God is a God of order and not confusion, why did God write to the Bishop and not to the Pope?

If God is the God of order and not confusion, do you really think God is pleased with all of the confusion, division and heterogeneity within the protestant Body to which Jesus is the Head and Savior? If God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints, where can one go to find these churches where the saints are still one and united as they were when Peter and John walked the earth? 1 Corinthians 14:33

One thing I learned long ago as a protestant, preaching half truths from my proverbial armchair was: The devil will let a preacher prepare a sermon if it will keep him from preparing himself, and in no way am I applying this quote to you or anyone else for that matter; just to myself!!!

 

[guanophore]

Again, if we are to truly believe the words of Jesus in John 6:53 then no one can be saved without literally taking communion in the RCC. The RCC does not teach this. The RCC teaches that a person who has never taken communion in the RCC can be saved.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, BereanRuss. Your continued use of this inappropriate term is considered insulting.

The Scripture does not say that no one can be saved without taking communion in the RCC.

The passage, addressed to His disciples, says that they will not have life within them if they do not.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Salvation is is not “Roman”. Eucharist is not “Roman”.

Do you want to learn anything here, or do you just want to continue purporting your errors?

 

[BereanRuss]

To which Christian church in the world today, do you belong?

Why do you want to know?

 

[BereanRuss]

Berean,

The other thread was locked so you didn’t get a chance to reply, but I’m wondering why you are posting here. I’m not against it, in fact I encourage you to keep posting, but I’d like for you to be honest about your motivation. It doesn’t seem that you are interested in learning about the Catholic faith, but rather you are trying to argue against. When people actually answer your questions you ignore them and reply elsewhere with just more accusations. Are you trying to convert Catholics or just condemn us or what?

Brad,

I would never condemn anyone and I am not accusing anyone but I am challenging all of us, as Paul did, to, “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you are disqualified.”

Paul wrote to some with confidence… “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it”

To others, he was less confident… “You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.”

And about others he concluded that there was no real life at all… “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You are more then welcome to join in if you choose.

 

[bradwill911]

Brad,

I would never condemn anyone and I am not accusing anyone but I am challenging all of us, as Paul did, to, “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you are disqualified.”

Paul wrote to some with confidence… “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it”

To others, he was less confident… “You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.”

And about others he concluded that there was no real life at all… “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You are more then welcome to join in if you choose.

Okay, that’s fair, but it seems that you don’t believe that we Catholics have challenged ourselves at least not to the degree in which you have. It seems that regardless of what we say, you are convinced that your interpretation of Scripture is superior. Do you believe Catholics are Christians? If I, a Catholic, do challenge myself and agree with the Church’s teaching, am I still wrong? If you don’t believe that the CC is Christ’s true Church, it’d be helpful if you mention where we can find this true Church.

 

[BereanRuss]

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, BereanRuss. Your continued use of this inappropriate term is considered insulting.

My apologies concerning my ignorance of the Eastern Church. I am not trying to insult anyone. I will try to use CC from now on.

The Scripture does not say that no one can be saved without taking communion in the RCC.

If Jesus was referring to the Eucharist in John 6:53 then the Bible does indeed say that no one can be saved apart from taking communion in the CC.

 

[joe370]

BereanRuss…

Where in Galatians chapter 1 does Paul liken the RCC or the divided P.C.'s doctrines concerning the Eucharist to another gospel?

There was only one UNITED Ekklesia when Paul wrote his letter to Galatia; let’s assume for the moment that it was not the Universal Ekklesia; which church in the world today existed when Paul wrote that letter? If we can find that one church in the world today that existed when Paul, John and Peter walked the earth teaching and preaching the good news 2000 years ago, then perhaps we can unravel the mystery behind John 6:53; after all, she as the bride of Christ has to be write vis-a-vis any one doctrine, thanks to the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit; is that a reasonable assessment? What do ya think???

Paul said in Galatians one:

*Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia…
*

The apostles, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, established many many churches in the 1st century, just as there are many many churches in the protestant world today; the key difference is that the protestant churches are astringently divided! Where is that one church built by Christ circa 33 AD --in the world today, and let’s assume for the moment that the C.C. is not that one church; let’s assume that she fell by the wayside for teaching heretical doctrines as you seem to be suggesting vis-a-vis John 6:53!!!

Galatians 1 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

There are literally thousands of P.C.'S…offshoots, issuing from the One Universal Ekklesia, circa 1550 AD, a few believing in the true presence and most, of course, not; they can’t all be preaching a gospel that is not contrary to the one preached by the apostles, can they? If the One Universal Ekklesia, built by Jesus in Jerusalem circa 33 AD, is teaching/preaching a different gospel than what the apostles taught and preached, then which church in the world today did not desert him who called us in the grace of Christ…did not turn to a different gospel? She as the bride of Christ has to be out there; she as per sacred scripture was/is being guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity!!!

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
I said:

To which Christian church in the world today, do you belong?

BereanRuss, you said:

Why do you want to know?

I always get that answer…I love to learn as much as I can about all churches, just as you are interested in learning all you can about the church to which I belong; is that a bad thing? Don’t you want everyone to be a part of your church, after all, Jesus said that He is the Head and Savior of His church; we are saved by belonging to His Church!

 

[Through_Him]

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. [John 6:53]

Often when speaking with protestants, Catholics will quote this verse in an attempt prove to their separated brethren that there is something lacking within protestantism. In response protestants often try to say that Jesus was not speaking literally but was speaking figuratively. They attempt to prove this by quoting Jesus when He later in the same chapter says, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” Catholics then often respond by insisting that Jesus was indeed speaking literally.

My question is, do Catholics truly believe the words of Jesus in John 6:53?

You seem to be very busy with this thread, I did read it all and it is nice that you answer all with the the best of your ability. There is a lot of back and forth with this but my opinion if it means anything is that, well I just read a bit on the oak tree.

Do you see the oak tree?
If you take an oak tree seed, acorn if you will but better to be a small seed. Put this seed in a glass of water, now what do you see? Do you see an oak tree? I see an oak tree but I did not always see an oak tree, I only saw a seed. We Catholics are at different journeys ourselves and yet we believe. Because we are to even if unseen.

You can look this illustration up online the story of the picture is there somewhere.

Another illustration is from the movie Miracle on 34th street. If you have not seen it it will not mean much or not anyways. Kris Kringle AKA: Santa Clause was trying to show the little girl that she needs to believe not just to make it happen but to act on her belief. She saw the cane in the corner of the house which was to be her hope of being her new house. Now there are many canes in the world and many the same but she saw it as a representation of a promise from Santa. It was not Santa himself coming down the chimney but it stood for him. No pun intended.

Our Eucharist is Jesus Christ, He left it for us to lift back up to him. He gives us the gift of life and we lift it back up to him and take it into ourselves. If you were to go to the passover or table and just sit there, you are not acting on the participation of the Eucharist. It is a continual sacrament.

Unlike Baptism, ( I better qualify with water ) which you get baptized once and receive the grace and it is not to be repeated. It is done. The Eucharist is a continual living gift, water of life, now why would we not want that?

Do you see the oak tree?

 

[BereanRuss]

Okay, that’s fair, but it seems that you don’t believe that we Catholics have challenged ourselves at least not to the degree in which you have. It seems that regardless of what we say, you are convinced that your interpretation of Scripture is superior.

I am convinced that the word of God is true. Any interpretation of scripture must fit with all of scripture. For example, a good understanding of the word must reconcile Paul’s statements concerning works with James’ statements concerning works. A theology that embraces one but rejects the other is not of God for God gave both. If a person says that they are saved by faith and do not have works like love and forgiveness and helping those in need, they are deceived.

So is my interpretation superior to yours? Only if my interpretation fits better with the teaching of the Bible than yours does. If you have a clearer understanding of a topic that fits better with the Bible, I will receive it joyfully for I am convinced that the Bible is true.

Therefore, if you want to convince me of a truth that I am failing to understand, argue from the scriptures. Quote the Bible and I will receive your message.

Do you believe Catholics are Christians? If I, a Catholic, do challenge myself and agree with the Church’s teaching, am I still wrong?

You mean, “am I wrong?” not, “am I STILL wrong? Right?
That depends on the church’s teaching. If the church is teaching the truth of God’s word, then you are not wrong.

If you don’t believe that the CC is Christ’s true Church, it’d be helpful if you mention where we can find this true Church.

…believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

The church is made up of those who worship God in spirit and in truth.

My sheep hear my voice…

 

[joe370]

Hey BereanRuss…

You said:

If Jesus was referring to the Eucharist in John 6:53 then the Bible does indeed say that no one can be saved apart from taking communion in the CC.

That still bothers me to this day, but nevertheless, Jesus said it, just as He said unless you are baptized…and I don’t believe for one minute that incognizant Christians who are unbaptized, through no fault of their own, go to hell, just as incognizant Christians, who are not properly catechized vis-a-vis John 6:53, go to hell; that’s just silly if you ask me; God is Love as per sacred scripture, and He wouldn’t judge someone who is uninformed and innocently ignorant of His teachings!

I agree with guanophore; God is not bound by His own rules; He can do what ever He wants…Salvation is a free gift, as long as we do all that Jesus commanded, and the closer we get to that fullness of faith, the more duty bound we become! The one who reaches the summit of that fullness of faith and discards it, is the one who should be worried, as Paul reminds us, not the unwitting Christian!

Looking forward to your responses, when you get the chance…

God bless my friend…

 

[NotWorthy]

I was just listening to David Currie and Marcus Grodi, both converts to Catholicism, and they were talking about this very verse. Both of these guys were preachers in their respective faiths.

David once asked his Fundamentalist Seminarian Professor how you resolve that John 6:53 is speaking figuratively. He replied that they have to break every hermeneutical rule in order to make John 6:53 a figurative statement. Its a hard pill to swallow once one removes all their non-Catholic biases and read John chapter 6.

 

[Through_Him]

I am convinced that the word of God is true. Any interpretation of scripture must fit with all of scripture. For example, a good understanding of the word must reconcile Paul’s statements concerning works with James’ statements concerning works. A theology that embraces one but rejects the other is not of God for God gave both. If a person says that they are saved by faith and do not have works like love and forgiveness and helping those in need, they are deceived.

So is my interpretation superior to yours? Only if my interpretation fits better with the teaching of the Bible than yours does. If you have a clearer understanding of a topic that fits better with the Bible, I will receive it joyfully for I am convinced that the Bible is true.

Therefore, if you want to convince me of a truth that I am failing to understand, argue from the scriptures. Quote the Bible and I will receive your message.

You mean, “am I wrong?” not, “am I STILL wrong? Right?
That depends on the church’s teaching. If the church is teaching the truth of God’s word, then you are not wrong.

…believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

The church is made up of those who worship God in spirit and in truth.

My sheep hear my voice…

Read the words yourself as it is not us that needs to convince you.
You must study yourself to understand.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm#VII

 

[BereanRuss]

Where is that one church built by Christ circa 33 AD --in the world today, and let’s assume for the moment that the C.C. is not that one church; let’s assume that she fell by the wayside for teaching heretical doctrines as you seem to be suggesting vis-a-vis John 6:53!!!

If the CC is that true church, shouldn’t she still believe the words of the One who founded her and not change, “Amen, amen” to “Most of the time…”, or, “The normative means…”?

Galatians 1 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

That is correct, there is no connection between, “another gospel” and the Eucharist unless the Gospel requires belief in the Eucharist.

There are literally thousands of P.C.'S…offshoots, issuing from the One Universal Ekklesia, circa 1550 AD, a few believing in the true presence and most, of course, not; they can’t all be preaching a gospel that is not contrary to the one preached by the apostles, can they?

You seem to think that believing the Gospel is synonymous with believing in the Eucharist.

If this is the case, I challenge to search the scripture and see if it is true. Post your results here (include the scriptures please) if you don’t mind.

 

[BereanRuss]

That still bothers me to this day, but nevertheless, Jesus said it, just as He said unless you are baptized…and I don’t believe for one minute that incognizant Christians who are unbaptized, through no fault of their own, go to hell, just as incognizant Christians, who are not properly catechized vis-a-vis John 6:53, go to hell; that’s just silly if you ask me; God is Love as per sacred scripture, and He wouldn’t judge someone who is uninformed and innocently ignorant of His teachings!

Thank you for your thoughtful response! That is correct. A loving God is not eager to condemn, He is eager to justify and save! Therefore Jesus MUST be speaking figuratively and if He is speaking figuratively then there is NO need for the priesthood which is why the Apostles did not establish another earthly priesthood - because NONE is required!

However, the existence of CC priesthood is the VERY thing that makes the words of Jesus literal instead of figurative - and when you make His words in this verse literal, that is when He becomes a liar! In other words, if the CC priesthood is true, then Jesus is lying in John 6:53 but if the priesthood is false, His words are spirit and they are life – they are figurative and He remains TRUE!

This has been my point from the beginning of this BLOG!

 

[BereanRuss]

I was just listening to David Currie and Marcus Grodi, both converts to Catholicism, and they were talking about this very verse. Both of these guys were preachers in their respective faiths.

David once asked his Fundamentalist Seminarian Professor how you resolve that John 6:53 is speaking figuratively. He replied that they have to break every hermeneutical rule in order to make John 6:53 a figurative statement. Its a hard pill to swallow once one removes all their non-Catholic biases and read John chapter 6.

As I have pointed out, if Jesus is to be taken literally here, then He contradicts Himself in many other places like, “anyone who comes to me I will in no way cast out…”, or “you are clean by the word that I have spoken to you…” or “He who believes in me…”

That is the reason why we take this verse figuratively, because if we do not, Jesus contradicts Himself on many levels. Not to mention that Jesus told us, “the words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.”

 

[BereanRuss]

Read the words yourself as it is not us that needs to convince you.
You must study yourself to understand.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm#VII

Sorry, I just don’t have time to read each link that a person can cut and paste. I am answering multiple objections from multiple bloggers and if each one starts including multiple pages of links…

You are more then welcome to bring out the major points from the articles that you find interesting and post your ideas but honestly, you are going to have to put a little effort into this if you want to have a meaningful conversation.

 

[byzgirl]

If the CC is that true church, shouldn’t she still believe the words of the One who founded her and not change, “Amen, amen” to “Most of the time…”, or, “The normative means…”?

Hello again. I thought I’d respond to this part of your last post. By the way, I noticed that you responded, respectfully, and have begun to use the initials CC (for Catholic Church) instead of RCC. It is appreciated.

I think that you want a definitive manner in which God works. But, as shown in Scripture, what may seem contradictory, is not. God isn’t put in a box, by His own Word. He is the Living God, and His Word is the Living Word of God. It is, therefore, understandable that God does things according to His plan, and not necessarily how we think he should. Just look at your own life, and think about how God has worked in your life, even through the use of things and people why may not be ‘the obvious choice’ that you would make. It’s how God works sometimes. It doesn’t mean, at the same time, that God ever changes His mind. But it does mean that God is endlessly merciful and judges each person individually and by their heart (not by any checklist). It reminds me of the ‘Way of the Master’ program, where any admission to ‘breaking a commandment’ results in hell–without knowing anything more about the person and their relationship with Christ. God isn’t confined by the written Word and is Infinite Mercy and Infinite Love.

The following quoted material may be helpful to explain this part of your question (though this is more focused on baptism and not the Eucharist:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901chap.asp

THE ‘EXCEPTIONAL CASES’ RULE
By James Akin

“Hard cases make bad law.” This legal maxim—a warning against taking considerations that apply to exceptional circumstances and using them to establish what should be done in ordinary circumstances—has parallels in other fields. In Scripture study one might phrase it like this: “Exceptional cases make bad doctrine.”

Some groups have seized on something God did once or a few times in the Bible and try to make it normative for how God is supposed to work in the lives of all believers. This is done even when one can prove that one is talking about an exceptional situation.

For example, Protestants often point to the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10–11) to deny the role of baptism in salvation (cf. 1 Peter 3:21). At the conversion of Cornelius, Peter preaches (Acts 10:34–43), his hearers respond with faith and repentance (cf. 10:43, 11:18), the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles (10:44–45), they speak in tongues (10:46), and, seeing this, Peter orders that they be baptized (10:47–48). Because the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit—and thus salvation—before they received baptism, Evangelicals often conclude that baptism must convey neither the gift of the Holy Spirit nor salvation

matt1618.freeyellow.com/baptism.html

 

[PJM]

=byzgirl;5047407]Thank you. I appreciate the kindness of your words, but I can’t take credit for the wording, as it is mostly quoted material from much more eloquent writers and thinkers (like Peter Kreeft and Scott Hahn, etc.) I am just gifted at finding materials that get to the core of the issue at hand, and am happy to share them. I never tire of searching and gathering the best ways to teach and defend the Church. Most of the material, I have on my web site somewhere.

There is also a good pdf file that I have on my web site. It’s short and sweet, and hails from converts to the faith, entitled: “You Gotta Eat the Lamb”. It goes right along with the connection between the Passover (Seder) meal and the Eucharistic sacrificial meal/offering.
This is the URL address: www.box.net/shared/98gtteg7p5

Thanks for your appreciation of the “keys” logo. I just thought it was such a cute, modern expression of a deeply meaningful need (to be in unity with Peter and his successor).

May God bless you during this very Holy Week. As my friend wrote to me so beautifully this morning, “May the graces of this Holy Week bring you much comfort and grace as you fill your lamp with the oil of the Holy Spirit to welcome the coming of the Divine Bridegroom.”

Thanks again my friend.

I believe that Wisdom is not really Wisdom until it is shared.

May our Blessed Lord Bless you and your super-abundantly, in this season of Greated Joy!

 

[byzgirl]

Since all of this seems to be boiling down to this question (salvation outside the Church), I offer the following link to a discussion that may shed some further light for BereanRuss:

CAN THERE BE SALVATION
FOR NONCATHOLICS?
By: Matt1618
matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens2.html

By the way, if it were so black and white an issue, then Catholics would be going about with the same “assurance” theory that a faction of OSAS christians do! And wrongly so. If Catholics are not ‘in full communion’ with the Church, receiving the Eucharist is not a guarantee, even for them! One must live for Christ, and obey Him. God, alone, will judge whether we have succeeded or not. But we cannot walk about thinking that, because we Catholics receive the Eucharist, that we are guaranteed heaven any more than Protestants who make a ‘decision for Christ’ are guaranteed the same. We must all, like Saint Paul, “work out our faith with fear and trembling”

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and, by his grace, in obedience to his commands (“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from you; it is the gift of God. It is not from works, so no one may boast” [Eph. 2:8-9; see Phil. 2:13, Col. 1:29, Jas. 2:14-26]). That is an uncompromising Truth.

Steven Ray asked this question:
"How does one receive salvation, justification, new birth, and eternal life?

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)?

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)?

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

There is a big picture…that none of us can see that clearly. But God has a plan for us, as a covenental people/Church and as individual souls. God gave us His sacraments, through His Church, as a way for Him to continue to give us His Grace in an Incarnational manner. How else would a God who is both Human and Divine express His Love to us?