Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[cazayoux]

Michel,

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. {Ps 119:160]

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [John 17:17]

YES!

How important is the TRUTH?

John 8:32
[32] and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

John 18:38
What is TRUTH?

John 14:6
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus IS truth!!

John 17:16-18
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
[18] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

Read all of John 17.
This is Jesus praying to God.
He says these ‘men’ speak truth, the truth that Jesus gave them, that God gave Jesus.

Who are these men?
The apostles, leaders in the CHURCH.
Why do we need a church?
So that WE KNOW what the truth is.

Rom 2:8
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Where do we go to find out what is and is not TRUTH?

Matt 18:15-17
[15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
[16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

You made it sound like the power to bind and loose was something Catholics think is telling God what is and is not right. Wrong thinking on your part.

Matt 16:19
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt 18:18
[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If it is bound on earth, it is known as truth for those on earth and is already known in heaven as truth.
We see it as God allowing truth to be known and error to be known on earth.
It is already known as truth or error in heaven.

Jesus IS truth.
Jesus founded a church.
His church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
His church will bind and loose.
His church it to be sought as the final arbiter.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

There is a change in priesthood, not an abolition of it.
I read it in Hebrews 7 this morning.
Jesus is now the high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
No longer is a priest given that function by birth like in the O.T with Aaron’s and Levi’s descendants.”

I like the fact that you are using the Bible as your final authority for truth. Awesome!

Only God can establish a priesthood. God established the OT priesthood in great detail covering multiple books and numerous chapters.

However, there in no mention of another earthly priesthood in the NT except the priesthood of all believers as you point out.

A priest is a meatiator between God and man but in the NT there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

Is Jesus the only priest or the high priest?

Rom 15:15-16
[16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t know what translation you are using but the original Greek does not use the Greek word for priest in this passage.

The Bible never refers to any leader in the church as a priest (hiereus in the Greek).

The reason that the NT does not establish a new priesthood to replace the OT priesthood is twofold:

1. There are no more sacrifices for in to be offered. This was a major role of the OT priest but is no longer required because Jesus was offered, “once, for all”.
2. All believers have access directly to the throne of God through our High Priest, Jesus Christ. If I have access directly to God, why would I go through another man? Christianity is a relationship with God, not a religion.

To say there is no priesthood in the new testament is to ignore scripture.

I agree. There is the priesthood of all believers and there is the priesthood of Jesus Christ according to the order of Melchizedek but there is no longer an earthly priesthood in the NT church.

 

[jmcrae]

If the Christian can be saved without communion in the CC then are the words of Jesus are not literal.

Again - third time I’m writing this, in this thread.

IF they are saved. (There are no guarantees that such will be saved - we acknowlege that God makes the final decision, one way or the other; not us.)

IF they are saved, it is by a miracle of God that brings them into the Catholic Church in some way that is not known to us, and by means of this unknown miracle, they would receive Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Communion.

But they would not go to Heaven on the basis of their false religion - it would be by means of the Catholic Church.

 

[cazayoux]

Michel

The church is made up of believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again of His Spirit. Where those who are born of the Spirit are gathered, there is the church.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [Rom 8:9]

Agreed!
This does not mean His Church is an invisible church.
We still need to be able to FIND His Church so that we can know the truth.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

Please define who is inside and who is outside the church. If a Christian never receives communion in the CC and never desires to, are they in or out?

By some miracle, because of the sincerity of their hearts, they may be in.

But it is much more likely that, having consciously rejected the Christ of history and the Church, that their imaginary Jesus of “once saved always saved,” or “TULIP,” or “five solas,” or “know nothing,” or “seven fundamentals,” or what have you, will have no power to save them, and they will go to Hell.

 

[cazayoux]

Why then the words of the priest, "may the Lord accept our sacrifice… the work of human hands…”? Do the words of the mass have no meaning? If the priest does not see this as a sacrifice, why use the word sacrifice?

It is not a re-sacrifice of Jesus.
The only thing WE offer is worship and praise.

**Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. **For every man to eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of all his labor is a gift of God. (Eccl 3:13)]

It will become for us the bread of life. I am the bread of life . . . (John 6:35)]

**Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. **Then he took a cup, gave thanks and said: “Take this and share it among yourselves, for I tell you that from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. (Luke 22:17-18)]

The work of human hands are the bread and wine brought by the church.
This is not yet the Eucharist.

**Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. **Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. (Heb 12:28)]
**May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his church. **He that offers praise as a sacrifice glorifies me. . . (Psalm 50:23)]

The sacrifice is at the Lord’s hands, not ours or the priests.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I like the fact that you are using the Bible as your final authority for truth. Awesome!

Of course I go to the bible!
The bible is the Catholic Church’s best Tradition.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I don’t know what translation you are using but the original Greek does not use the Greek word for priest in this passage.

The protestant RSV (Revised Standard Version).

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

Who are these men? The apostles, leaders in the CHURCH. Why do we need a church? So that WE KNOW what the truth is. Where do we go to find out what is and is not TRUTH?

when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak…

…the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

I agree. Who is the church? Again, the church is made of those who are born again by the Spirit of God. Anyone who is born of the Spirit IS the church. My sheep hear my voice…

You made it sound like the power to bind and loose was something Catholics think is telling God what is and is not right. Wrong thinking on your part.

The power to loose a person from sin exists only in the message of the Gospel. When a person believes the message of the Gospel they are, “a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Apart from being born again, you cannot be forgiven of sin:

Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Peter did indeed fulfill this when he opened the door of the church on the day of Pentecost. However, once you have opened a door the keys are no longer necessary.

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I agree that Jesus has given the church power and authority. Who is the church? The Church are the “Called out ones” whom Jesus has saved and has sealed by the gift of His Spirit.

Jesus IS truth. Jesus founded a church. His church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. His church will bind and loose. His church it to be sought as the final arbiter.

Jesus is the truth and He continues to build His church to this day. His church is made up of all who are born again of His Spirit.

 

[cazayoux]

I don’t know what translation you are using but the original Greek does not use the Greek word for priest in this passage.

Maybe you are looking for the Greek work for a priest of the O.T.
As I have shown from scripture, there is a new priesthood.

Rom 15:16 is translated using the word ‘priest’ for the greek ‘leitourgos christos’ which is ‘minister of Christ’.

You tell me what name today you would give a minister of Christ.
The fact that a protestant translation recognizes that ‘priest’ is a suitable name should tell you something.
You seem to be desperately trying to equate a Catholic priest’s position with that of an O.T. priest.
Nobody in the Catholic Church believes this.
Why do you?

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

By some miracle, because of the sincerity of their hearts, they may be in.

But it is much more likely that, having consciously rejected the Christ of history and the Church, that their imaginary Jesus of “once saved always saved,” or “TULIP,” or “five solas,” or “know nothing,” or “seven fundamentals,” or what have you, will have no power to save them, and they will go to Hell.

The Christ of History is the the Christ of the Bible. Anyone who is born again of His Spirit belongs to Him.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

 

[jmcrae]

It is not a re-sacrifice of Jesus.
The only thing WE offer is worship and praise.

Actually, the priest is offering the thanksgiving sacrifice of bread and wine, in the manner of the priest Melchizedek. (Genesis 14:17-20; Psalm 110; Hebrews 5:1-10 (see also Hebrews 9).

**Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. **For every man to eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of all his labor is a gift of God. (Eccl 3:13)]

It will become for us the bread of life. I am the bread of life . . . (John 6:35)]

**Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. **Then he took a cup, gave thanks and said: “Take this and share it among yourselves, for I tell you that from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. (Luke 22:17-18)]

The work of human hands are the bread and wine brought by the church.
This is not yet the Eucharist.

**Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. **Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. (Heb 12:28)]
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his church. He that offers praise as a sacrifice glorifies me. . . (Psalm 50:23)]

The sacrifice is at the Lord’s hands, not ours or the priests.

Actually, when we say “at your hands” we are speaking to the priest - the priest (who at this point is “in persona Christi”) is making the thanksgiving sacrifice of bread and wine (after the manner of the priest Melchizedek), the substance of which is then taken up by God into Heaven, and replaced with the substance of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Hence, “trans [it is trading places] -substance [the thing that is trading places] -iation [the condition of].”)

Just FYI.

 

[jmcrae]

The Christ of History is the the Christ of the Bible.

The Bible is our most important Catholic book.

Anyone who is born again of His Spirit belongs to Him.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

All true. All good reasons to become Catholic.

 

[cazayoux]

I agree. Who is the church? Again, the church is made of those who are born again by the Spirit of God. Anyone who is born of the Spirit IS the church. My sheep hear my voice…

I agree … but you seem to think the church is invisible and cannot be an organization with leaders. This was not true of the church in the first century and is not true today. Look at the KJV, Act chapter 1 to see that the position the apostles held is called a bishopric.
You have to be able to FIND the church if it is to be a final arbiter, to know the truth.
Protestantism shows SO much difference of opinion on what the truth is.
How would I go to any of these churches and be certain it was right and all others are wrong?

The power to loose a person from sin exists only in the message of the Gospel. When a person believes the message of the Gospel they are, “a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

The gospel is to be trusted as truth.
Baptism IS for the remission of sins.

Apart from being born again, you cannot be forgiven of sin:

These words are not in the bible.
Since we agree that the gospel is truth, let’s look at it.
John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The resurrected Jesus is given men the power to forgive sins … not of their own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Amen!

Peter did indeed fulfill this when he opened the door of the church on the day of Pentecost. However, once you have opened a door the keys are no longer necessary.

These words are not in scripture.
Keys are not just access, but authority as we see in Isaiah.

Isaiah 22:19-24
[19] I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station.
[20] In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah,
[21] and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
[22] And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
[23] And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.
[24] And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.

Do you think the apostles, these Jewish men, didn’t see ‘keys’ as having to do with authority?

I agree that Jesus has given the church power and authority. Who is the church? The Church are the “Called out ones” whom Jesus has saved and has sealed by the gift of His Spirit. Jesus is the truth and He continues to build His church to this day. His church is made up of all who are born again of His Spirit.

I agree … but this STILL does not mean that His church is an invisible collection of disagreeing people.
Scripture talks about unity.
I just don’t see the X number of non-Catholic Christian communities as having any unity of doctrine whatsoever.
I see in the Catholic Church 1.1 billion people being taught the SAME doctrine.

The Catholic Church is visible.
I can find it to go to it as an arbiter and to help me know what truth is.
If the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong on one doctrine, how in the world am I supposed to know that the Bethany Street First Baptist Church of Christ the Redeemer in Bobville, Arizona has it right?

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

Rom 15:16 is translated using the word ‘priest’ for the greek ‘leitourgos christos’ which is ‘minister of Christ’.

A minister is not a priest for a minister does not stand BETWEEN God and men. Eucharistic minister for example.

A priest stands between God and man but there are none in the NT that hold this position in the church. All believers are equal and none goes to God through another believer.

When Paul uses the term “minister” he is referring to the preaching of the Gospel:

…that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God…

…and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister…

…that on your behalf he might minister to me in my chains for the gospel…

 

[cazayoux]

A minister is not a priest for a minister does not stand BETWEEN God and men. Eucharistic minister for example.

I am a Eucharistic minister.
I no way am I between Jesus and the individual I’m ‘ministering’ to.
The person I’m giving the Eucharist too is likely closer to God spiritually than I am.
There is no rank attached to being a Eucharistic minister.

A priest stands between God and man but there are none in the NT that hold this position in the church. All believers are equal and none goes to God through another believer.

Were hands laid upon every Christian, or the ‘ministers’?
You need to realize that we see the priests as servants to the church (the community), not as a leader.

When Paul uses the term “minister” he is referring to the preaching of the Gospel:

…that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God…

…and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister…

…that on your behalf he might minister to me in my chains for the gospel…

None of these verses say what you want them to say.
They don’t say ‘ministering’ = ‘preaching’.
‘Ministering’ could be much more than just preaching.

You are reading something into it that just isn’t stated.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

I agree … but you seem to think the church is invisible and cannot be an organization with leaders.

Where those who are born of the Spirit of God are gathered, there is the church. The church is visible not invisible.

Since we agree that the gospel is truth, let’s look at it.
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The resurrected Jesus is given men the power to forgive sins … not of their own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Again, there is no person in the NT church who is referred to as a priest except “all believers” and Jesus himself.

Only God can establish a priesthood for only God has the authority to determine who may approach Him. God went to great lengths to establish the OT priesthood. How is it He failed to mention it in the NT?

The church does have authority to forgive sins but the church is not made up of priests and laity, it is made up of believers who are born of His Spirit. No one believer has more access to God than another for God is not a respecter of persons.

Keys are not just access, but authority as we see in Isaiah.
I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station…

Do you think the apostles, these Jewish men, didn’t see ‘keys’ as having to do with authority?

The priesthood is absolutely essential to the CC. No priest – No Jesus – No church – No salvation.

If the priesthood is absolutely essential to the Christian faith, why doesn’t the NT ever mention it?

God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Why is there no priest in this list if the priest is absolutely essential to Christianity?

Scripture talks about unity. I just don’t see the X number of non-Catholic Christian communities as having any unity of doctrine whatsoever.

There is tremendous unity in the Bible believing church.

1. The word of God is infallible.
2. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin, was crucified, died and rose again.

There are also many differences but these differences are in “non-essential” areas such as can future events.

If the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong on one doctrine, how in the world am I supposed to know that the Bethany Street First Baptist Church of Christ the Redeemer in Bobville, Arizona has it right?

You are not to follow any church. You are called to follow Jesus. The church is merely the place where His followers meet to fellowship, worship, study and love one another.

 

[jmcrae]

Only God can establish a priesthood for only God has the authority to determine who may approach Him.

Right.

It is Jesus (who is the second person of God; that Word that came forth from the Father’s mouth to create all that is visible and invisible) who established the Catholic priesthood, and the Sacraments, and gave us the Mass as the means to worship Him.

All of these things are found in the New Testament, in various different places, and have been cited already throughout this thread.

The Apostles were the first priests and Bishops of the Catholic Church, appointed and ordained by Christ Himself.

 

[cazayoux]

Where those who are born of the Spirit of God are gathered, there is the church. The church is visible not invisible.

Glad you agree.
Now if my wife wants to have an abortion and I don’t agree, which bible-only Christian Church should I go to as an authority to tell us if it is wrong or not? There are bible-only Christian churches that disagree on this.

Again, there is no person in the NT church who is referred to as a priest except “all believers” and Jesus himself.

Which is it? Nobody or everybody? You say both above.

Only God can establish a priesthood for only God has the authority to determine who may approach Him. God went to great lengths to establish the OT priesthood. How is it He failed to mention it in the NT?

Again, there is no equivalent to the OT priesthood.
You are the only one here trying to connect them.
If you prefer ‘minister’ as protestant bibles agree a new testament priest is, that is fine. You are getting hung up on a name. Maybe you prefer presbyter or elder.

The church does have authority to forgive sins but the church is not made up of priests and laity, it is made up of believers who are born of His Spirit. No one believer has more access to God than another for God is not a respecter of persons.

The resurrected Jesus gave the apostles, specifically, this power.
He did not give this power to every individual in the church.
Paul empowered Timothy to appoint others that would in turn appoint others.
It’s not that these appointees (or even Timothy) had more access to God, but that they could be relied up for the TRUTH.

The priesthood is absolutely essential to the CC. No priest – No Jesus – No church – No salvation.

You fail to see that Jesus is the one that gave the power to forgive sins to the apostles. To ignore them, and those they appointed IS to ignore Jesus and separate yourself from Jesus’ church and to separate yourself from salvation.

If the priesthood is absolutely essential to the Christian faith, why doesn’t the NT ever mention it?

I’ve already shown you that there was a change in the priesthood.

God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Why is there no priest in this list if the priest is absolutely essential to Christianity?

‘Minister’ is not in this list either, but you agree that scripture talks about ‘ministers’ (which protestant bibles agree translates to ‘priest’).

There is tremendous unity in the Bible believing church.

1. The word of God is infallible.
2. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin, was crucified, died and rose again.

There are also many differences but these differences are in “non-essential” areas such as can future events.

Where does the bible state what is and is not ‘essential’?
Really … is there any part of TRUTH that is not ‘essential’?
One non-Catholic Christian church believes baptism for babies is okay, another does not.
Do you think Jesus would hear God say ‘there those people go again baptizing babies’, and respond ‘no dad, it’s okay for them to’.
Of course not. It would be absurd.
Yet, this is what we find in protestantism today … all of them going by the bible alone.
Which church do I go to to know the truth about whether or not it is okay to baptize babies?

and btw … Catholic do not believe we earn our salvation of our own accord by doing good works… in case that was what you were referring to in number 2 of your list. We absolutely believe it is from the free gift of grace from God.

You are not to follow any church. You are called to follow Jesus. The church is merely the place where His followers meet to fellowship, worship, study and love one another.

This is not in the bible either.
You say not to follow any church, but Jesus himself founded a church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
We see letters to churches throughout the new testament.
You seem to separate Jesus from his church.
He DID found a church, ONE church.
It is visible, authoritative, apostolic, infallible on teachings of faith and morals (since it is the pillar and foundation of the truth).

Don’t you see that Jesus founded a church.
The apostles held authoritative offices in this church to serve the church not to lord over it.
The apostles passed this authority on to others. It had to be. How else will the teaching continue until the end of the age.

Matt 28:19-20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

That church Jesus founded, with authoritative leaders, is still alive today.
How do I find it?
Which church has been in existence since Jesus founded it until today?

The theology you subscribe to is a NEW TEACHING.
You will not find it in the 1st century, or the 4th, or the 7th, …

You’ve got a prejudice view of the Catholic Church.
That’s okay for now … we can fix that … with knowledge.

michel

 

[ralphy]

In John 21:15-19, we see Jesus appointing Peter to “feed His sheep” - that is, to be the chief Shepherd of the Church. Thus, Jesus passed His authority to Peter. We know from reading early documents of the Church, especially Eusebius’ History of the Church, which was written before the Emperor Constantine was even born yet, that the Papacy has been in place right from the very beginning.

How it got from there to here.

Peter was feeding the sheep with the word of God. Just like our Pastor in the place we assemble as christians, the church. Christ is our Chief sheperd of the church. Ralph