Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[ralphy]

Right.

It is Jesus (who is the second person of God; that Word that came forth from the Father’s mouth to create all that is visible and invisible) who established the Catholic priesthood, and the Sacraments, and gave us the Mass as the means to worship Him.

All of these things are found in the New Testament, in various different places, and have been cited already throughout this thread.

The Apostles were the first priests and Bishops of the Catholic Church, appointed and ordained by Christ Himself.

Could you give me a scripture verse where the mass is found. And what does the word “mass” mean? Ralph

 

[jmcrae]

No one believer has more access to God than another for God is not a respecter of persons.

How does it follow, that because God is not a respecter of persons, that we are therefore not required to be obedient to the authorities that God has set up over us?

How does God not being a respecter of persons mean that we don’t have to be respecters of persons? We are not God.

 

[bradwill911]

Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[jmcrae]

Could you give me a scripture verse where the mass is found.

The Mass is mentioned in several places:

First, we see that Christ established the Mass during the Last Supper, and we read four accounts of how He did this:

Matthew 26:16-30
Mark 14:22-25
Luke 22:14-23
I Corinthians 11:23-26

It is prophesied in Malachi 1:11.
It is prefigured in Exodus 16:15.
The Passover is a type of the Mass: compare Exodus 12:1-13, 43-51 with John 6:32-60
It is promised in John 6:32-60
We ought to attend frequently: Acts 2:42; 20:7; Psalm 78:24-25; Proverbs 9:2; Wisdom 16:20.
It is a source of grace: Psalm 23:5

And what does the word “mass” mean?

It is the contraction of a Latin phrase, “Ita missa est” which means “It is finished.”

 

[jmcrae]

Do you believe in the Trinity?

Who are you asking?

 

[ralphy]

Where does Scripture say this?

Christ commissioned the Apostles to make disciples of all the nations. Did the Apostles do this? Or did people who they passed on their authority finish this task? I’ll give you a hint. The Catholic Church is in all the nations of the world, my brother!

People who are born again christians are the disciples of Christ, and their “job” (mandate) is to pass on the gospel of salvation to the world. I’ll give you a hint also, I am one of them. Ralph

 

[bradwill911]

Now you are back to saying that Jesus’ words mean nothing when He says, “Amen, amen…” When do we take Jesus’ words literally? Only after three “amens”?

I do take it literally, I’m not the one on here arguing against the real presence. That IS what Christ was saying in this entire passage. He was saying the bread and wine are His body and blood. I take that quite literally, as did the disciples who left him.

You cannot have it both ways Brad. Either He is speaking literally and the priest and regular communion are required for salvation or He is speaking figuratively and the priesthood is the invention of man.

Russ, I do not understand this passage to mean that Christ is saying that you need a priest and you need regular communion. I take this passage to mean that the bread and wine are his body and blood. Literalistic vs Literal interpretation. The Eucharist was not established by this passage, but the literal meaning of His body and blood were.

Again, is communion required or not?. Are the words of Jesus reliable or not?

I think this has been answered, but I’ll quote something to make it a little more clear:

CCC 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation…

Here’s something from the Catholic Encyclopedia found under “Holy Communion” in case you want to google it.

"The doctrine of the Church is that Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, that is to say, without the graces of this sacrament it would be very difficult to resist grave temptations and avoid grievous sin. Moreover, there is according to theologians a Divine precept by which all are bound to receive communion at least some times during life. How often this precept urges outside the danger of death it is not easy to say, but many hold that the Church has practically determined the Divine precept by the law of the Fourth Council of Lateran (c.xxi) confirmed by Trent, which obliges the faithful to receive Communion once each year within Paschal Time.

The subject of Holy Communion is everyone in this life capable of the effects of the Sacrament, that is all who are baptized and who, if adults, have the requisite intention (see COMMUNION OF CHILDREN)."

I’m sure your next question is going to be something along these lines, “Why, then, does the Church teach that a Muslim or Jew can be saved?” Am I right?

Christ’s words are reliable. Christ cannot lie and the Bible cannot contradict itself. If there is an apparent contradiction it is a problem with our own understanding. You are seeing an apparent contradiction, I am not.

You failed to answer this question so I’ll just ask it again. If you believe John 3:16 to mean that we are saved if we believe, then why are we having this discussion? Catholics believe so we are saved by your own definition! We believe, we confess Christ as our Lord and Savior! If you doubt this, let me end with quotes from the Nicene Creed, which we recite at every Sunday Mass:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God…

For us men and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven…

 

[bradwill911]

I’m asking Berean, I thought I had replied to his post.

 

[ralphy]

Agreed!
This does not mean His Church is an invisible church.
We still need to be able to FIND His Church so that we can know the truth.

michel

Indeed His church is NOT invisible, those who are born again are His church, the body of Christ. What you call His church is a building. Ralph

 

[jmcrae]

Indeed His church is NOT invisible, those who are born again are His church, the body of Christ. What you call His church is a building. Ralph

Actually, the Catholic Church is not a building.

The Catholic Church is a society of people who share a set of common beliefs and a common culture, with a structured leadership, that was established by Jesus Christ on the Apostles. We make use of buildings, but we are not actually a building, as such (other than in the sense of being living stones gathered together, as in I Peter 2:5).

 

[cazayoux]

Peter was feeding the sheep with the word of God. Just like our Pastor in the place we assemble as christians, the church. Christ is our Chief sheperd of the church. Ralph

You have an inconsistency here.
Did Jesus set up Peter to feed His sheep?
Peter did not ordain your pastor to do follow in his work.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Could you give me a scripture verse where the mass is found. And what does the word “mass” mean? Ralph

‘mass’ means to ‘send forth’ (to spread the good news).
It comes from ‘missa’ which is the same word that ‘mission’ comes from.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Indeed His church is NOT invisible, those who are born again are His church, the body of Christ. What you call His church is a building. Ralph

… wrong again.
If every ‘Catholic’ building in the world turned to dust at this very moment, the Catholic Church would remain.
NOBODY in the Catholic Church thinks it means ‘building’.

Keep the prejudice coming … we’ll fix it with knowledge.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

What you call His church is a building. Ralph

I really want to know where you get this tripe.
Who told you what Catholics believe?
If I were you I’d SERIOUSLY question what this person tells you.
That person make you look foolish when you repeat it.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

Right.

It is Jesus (who is the second person of God; that Word that came forth from the Father’s mouth to create all that is visible and invisible) who established the Catholic priesthood, and the Sacraments, and gave us the Mass as the means to worship Him.

All of these things are found in the New Testament, in various different places, and have been cited already throughout this thread.

No person in the NT church is refered to as a priest except Jesus and “all believers”.

 

[jmcrae]

No person in the NT church is refered to as a priest except Jesus and “all believers”.

The “presbyteroi” are the priests. The “episkipoi” are the Bishops, and the “diakanoi” are the Deacons.

 

[SHW]

Michel,

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. {Ps 119:160]

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [John 17:17]

Hi Russ,

Jesus “Word” is His “gospel” which was preached by the Apostles and disciples. It is not limited to the written word. Scripture actually states otherwise:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Scripture states that the gospel of Christ, His Word, was preached orally and some of it was also written down.

John 21:25 “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.”

Since you teach and believe only the written Word and do not believe in the oral Word of God with its traditions, then you do not know the whole truth of the gospel of Christ.

Pax,
SHW

 

[BereanRuss]

If you believe John 3:16 to mean that we are saved if we believe, then why are we having this discussion? Catholics believe so we are saved by your own definition! We believe, we confess Christ as our Lord and Savior!

If you believe that Jesus is the Savior (I am not saying that you do not believe) I don’t understand why your salvation is dependant upon another priest other than Christ. If Christ saved you, you are free from the works of the law. There is no longer an offering for sin to be offered.

The fact that the work of the priest is still required for the Caholic to be right with God indicates that the work of salvation is not complete. You can say what you like but the fact is that the WORK of the PRIEST in ABSOLUTELY required. Without the continued, daily work of the priest, there is no salvation for anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic.

I question this belief as it distorts the Gospel and muddies the pure waters of salvation.

There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Those who are trusting in the work of Christ have ceased from their own works. This is the faith that saves a person. Any faith in Christ that also requires additional works of another priest is not saving faith.

 

[jmcrae]

If you believe that Jesus is the Savior (I am not saying that you do not believe) I don’t understand why your salvation is dependant upon another priest other than Christ. If Christ saved you, you are free from the works of the law. There is no longer an offering for sin to be offered.

There is no longer any *other *offering for sin to be offered than Christ on the Cross, but Christ on the Cross is an eternal and ongoing Sacrifice (otherwise, only those few disciples who were present at the actual Crucifixion can be saved) that covers the whole world, in all places, and from the beginning to the end of time.

The fact that the work of the priest is still required for the Caholic to be right with God indicates that the work of salvation is not complete. You can say what you like but the fact is that the WORK of the PRIEST in ABSOLUTELY required. Without the continued, daily work of the priest, there is no salvation for anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic.

The priest is the vehicle of salvation; he is not, himself, the Saviour.

The work of salvation must continue on until every human being has heard the Gospel and been given the opportunity to enter into Christ’s life, by means of the Sacraments. This will not happen until the end of the world.

 

[cazayoux]

If you believe that Jesus is the Savior (I am not saying that you do not believe) I don’t understand why your salvation is dependant upon another priest other than Christ. If Christ saved you, you are free from the works of the law. There is no longer an offering for sin to be offered.

ahhhh … this is what we need to study.
What is the difference between ‘works’ and ‘works of the law’?

michel