Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[BereanRuss]

The “presbyteroi” are the priests. The “episkipoi” are the Bishops, and the “diakanoi” are the Deacons.

Again, the Greek word for “priest” is “hiereus” and is used throughout the NT but it is NEVER used of any leader in the NT church other than Jesus.

“presbyteroi” means overseer and has nothing to do with priesthood. “presbyteroi”, “episkipoi” and “diakanoi” are used intercahngably in the NT to refer to the leaders of the church.

 

[BereanRuss]

ahhhh … this is what we need to study.
What is the difference between ‘works’ and ‘works of the law’?

michel

Any work that requires a priest is of the law for the priesthood is the center of the law. Therefore, any work that requires the work of a priest is a “work of the law”.

 

[jmcrae]

Again, the Greek word for “priest” is “hiereus” and is used throughout the NT but it is NEVER used of any leader in the NT church other than Jesus.

“presbyteroi” means overseer and has nothing to do with priesthood. “presbyteroi”, “episkipoi” and “diakanoi” are used intercahngably in the NT to refer to the leaders of the church.

And priests, Bishops, and deacons are leaders of the Church.

HMMM, what other church is there that has priests, deacons, and Bishops in leadership, like the Early Church did.

(Okay, the Anglicans get a pass, then … )

 

[BereanRuss]

The work of salvation must continue on until every human being has heard the Gospel and been given the opportunity to enter into Christ’s life, by means of the Sacraments. This will not happen until the end of the world.

The work of the priest is not for the unbeliever in Catholicism, it is for the believer. The priest does not minister to unbelievers but to believers in the CC.

Salvation is not through any man other than the Man, Christ Jesus.

 

[cazayoux]

There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Those who are trusting in the work of Christ have ceased from their own works. This is the faith that saves a person. Any faith in Christ that also requires additional works of another priest is not saving faith.

You seem to be ignoring much scripture and creating a new gospel.
You see works as a curse word … but we were MADE for good works.

Eph 2:10
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

… and what happens if, once saved, we do not do the good works that God prepared beforehand for us?

John 15:1-6
[1] "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
[2] Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
[3] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Do you see?
The branches are the Christians (branches of His).
These Christians, IF they do not abide in Christ, will be removed from the vine and thrown in the fire.

What is it the Christians must DO to abide in Jesus?

John 15:10
[10] If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

What all does scripture tells us we must DO to be saved?

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope. (Heb 3:6)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…
all by the grace of God.

Your oversimplification gives you kindergarten Christianity.
Time to graduate and read the WHOLE bible.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Any work that requires a priest is of the law for the priesthood is the center of the law. Therefore, any work that requires the work of a priest is a “work of the law”.

There you go again equating a Catholic priest with a Levitical priest.
Quit making this up.
Nothing you wrote above is in scripture.
Someone has given you this prejudice.
Let it go.
LISTEN to the Catholics here to find out what we believe, don’t trust some anti-Catholic to tell you what Catholics believe.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

The work of the priest is not for the unbeliever in Catholicism, it is for the believer. The priest does not minister to unbelievers but to believers in the CC.

Actually, he ministers to both.

The work of salvation is on-going; it’s not a one-time thing where someone could say, “I have been saved.” We are in the process of being saved, right up until the moment when we reach Heaven, at which time, we will be able for the first time to say, “I have been saved.”

Salvation is not through any man other than the Man, Christ Jesus.

And Christ uses other people, including His priests, to do this work.

To illustrate this concept, there is a story.

There was a terrible flood, and the man began to pray, “God, please save me from the flood!” He was a man of great faith, so, having prayed this prayer, he knew that God would save him from the flood. Just then, his neighbor arrived at his door, saying “Come quickly, there is a bus taking us all away to higher ground, before the flood comes!”

He said to her, “I don’t need to get on the bus. God is going to save me from the flood.” So she left with all the rest of the neighbors on the bus, and he was left alone.

Soon, the waters reached the ceiling of the first floor, and he went up to the second floor. He prayed again, “God, please save me from the flood,” and knew in his heart that God would save him from the flood. Just then, a rescue boat came by the window, and the rescuer called out, “Come and get in the boat! I will take you to a safe place!” He said to the rescuer, “I don’t need to get in the boat. God is going to save me from the flood!” So the rescue boat went on past, and the rescuer looked for others to rescue.

Soon, he was forced out of the house and on to the roof by the rising of the flood waters. As he climbed up on to his roof, he prayed again, “God, please save me from the flood,” and he was assured in his heart that God would save him. Just then, a helicopter came by and let down a rope for him to climb up. The person in the helicopter yelled down, “Grab on to the rope, and we will draw you into the helicopter, and take you to a safe place!” He yelled back, “I don’t need to get into your helicopter! God is going to save me from the flood,” so the helicopter moved on to find others in need of rescue.

Soon, his house was washed away in the flood, and he was drowned. When he came into the presence of God, he said, “I trusted you to save me from the flood, but you did not! Why not?!” God said, “I heard your prayer, and I even answered it three times. First, I sent a bus, and I sent your neighbor to tell you about the bus. Then, I sent a rescuer in a rescue boat. After that, I sent a helicopter pilot with his helicopter. What more were you expecting Me to do?!”

In the same way, God uses priests to bring us to eternal salvation.

 

[BereanRuss]

You seem to be ignoring much scripture and creating a new gospel.
You see works as a curse word … but we were MADE for good works.

I agree that we are created for good works but those works are not works of the law.

We are created for compassion, love, forgiveness, giving, faithfulness, visiting those in prison, etc.

But we must not be involved in the works of the law for the law bring a curse, not a blessing.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

You cannot ignore Paul by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

 

[cazayoux]

You cannot ignore Paul by quoting James. You must reconcile both Paul and James.

Agreed !!!

You do not seem to understand what ‘works of the law’ really are.

The works of the law are found in the Pentateuch (Leviticus, specifically).
Catholics do not do them.

Quit trying to equate anything Catholics do with what is in Leviticus.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

I agree that we are created for good works but those works are not works of the law.

Nor do Catholics do any kind of “works of the law.”

 

[BereanRuss]

There you go again equating a Catholic priest with a Levitical priest.
Quit making this up.
Nothing you wrote above is in scripture.
Someone has given you this prejudice.
Let it go.
LISTEN to the Catholics here to find out what we believe, don’t trust some anti-Catholic to tell you what Catholics believe.

michel

I was Catholic for 20 years. I know what you believe.

I did not equate the Catholic priest with the Levitical priest. I equated the works of the Law with the priesthood. There was no earthly priesthood before the Law. It is the Law itself that requires a priest to do the work that is in the law. If there are not more “works of the Law” to be done, there is no longer a need for an earthly priesthood.

The existence of another earthly priesthood PROCLAIMS loudly that the work of salvation in not complete in Christ but continues to require additional works to maintain it. This is “another gospel”.

There is no longer a need for a priest because the law has been fulfilled in Christ.

 

[BereanRuss]

Nor do Catholics do any kind of “works of the law.”

Then what need is the priest for the priest is of the law, not of faith.

 

[cazayoux]

We are created for compassion, love, forgiveness, giving, faithfulness, visiting those in prison, etc.

Let me list them for you again.

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope. (Heb 3:6)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…
all by the grace of God.

All of these are WORKS that we must do.
To have faith in Jesus is to DO what scripture (HIS word) says to DO.

Peter is not contradicting Paul. The only way you might see that is if you equate ‘works’ and ‘works of the law’ (found in Leviticus). When you understand the difference, you will realize there is no contradiction.

To have faith and to not do these works (listed above) is to have a dead faith.
Can a dead faith save you?

michel

 

[jmcrae]

I was Catholic for 20 years. I know what you believe.

Really, you learned everything there is to know in just 20 years? I started studying the Catholic faith in 1983, and I am still just barely scratching the surface. (I converted 8 years ago.)

I did not equate the Catholic priest with the Levitical priest. I equated the works of the Law with the priesthood.

It is false to do this. The Christian priesthood is not about “works of the law.” It is about enabling the channels of grace that flow forth from the heart of Christ, blood and water pouring out over the whole world, by means of the Sacraments.

 

[cazayoux]

Then what need is the priest for the priest is of the law, not of faith.

Who says a Catholic priest is a priest of a Levitical nature, a priest ‘of the law’?
This just isn’t so.
You MUST quit believing everything your anti-Catholic, prejudice acquaintances are telling you.

michel

 

[BereanRuss]

Agreed !!!

You do not seem to understand what ‘works of the law’ really are.

The works of the law are found in the Pentateuch (Leviticus, specifically).
Catholics do not do them.

Quit trying to equate anything Catholics do with what is in Leviticus.

michel

Works of the law include the ten commandments.

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Rom 7:7]

Covetousness is the last commandment. It is of the Law of Moses.

There is no distinction in the Bible between the “moral law” and the “ceremonial law”. All are included in this word “law”.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [Gal 5:4]

 

[BereanRuss]

Let me list them for you again.

keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. [James 2:10]

 

[jmcrae]

Works of the law include the ten commandments.

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Rom 7:7]

Covetousness is the last commandment. It is of the Law of Moses.

There is no distinction in the Bible between the “moral law” and the “ceremonial law”. All are included in this word “law”.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [Gal 5:4]

So, in order to prove that we are real Christians, we have to go around breaking the 10 Commandments, and if we don’t break the Sabbath, worship idols, use God’s name as a swear word, insult and disobey our parents, commit murder, have sex outside of marriage, steal, gossip, swear falsely, lust after our neighbor’s spouses, and covet our neighbor’s goods, we have fallen out of grace?

 

[jmcrae]

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. [James 2:10]

That’s why we have the Confessional.

 

[BereanRuss]

The Christian priesthood is not about “works of the law.” It is about enabling the channels of grace that flow forth from the heart of Christ, blood and water pouring out over the whole world, by means of the Sacraments.

Only the law creates the need for a priest. No law = no priest required.

Abraham had a relationship with God by faith without any earthly priest. The entrance of the law is the catalyst that then produced the priesthood.

The existence of the priesthood today proclaims that the work of the salvation is not completed. If salvation is secured by the work of Jesus on the cross, there are no longer works for the priest to perform. The fact that the priest is still required testifies that the work of Christ is not completed.