Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[guanophore]

When Jesus died on the cross, the robe in the temple was ripped from top to bottom. This robe was the separation in the Temple between the “holy place” and the “holy of holies” – the very room in the temple where God dwelt.

There is no longer separation between God and man. God has made a way through Jesus Christ for any and all “who will call on His name” to freely enter His presence “behind the veil”

This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. [Heb 6:19, 20]

Jesus is the only priest in the NT and all believers are to come to God only through Him…

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

All the quotes you have provided here are Catholic. They are in the NT because they are part of Catholic teaching, which is where the entire NT came from.

It has been pointed out to you (it seems to me that you don’t read all the posts) that there is the priesthood of all believers. This is very clear in scripture.To say that Jesus is the only priest in the NT is to deny all these other passages that refer to the members of the body as a priestly people.

It has also been pointed out to you that the ordained serve ministerial functions that not all of the laity do. These persons are grafted into the priesthood of Christ, and act in the person of Christ. This is part of Jesus incarnational principle. He functions through His church which is His body on earth. He left the Apostles empowered to forgive and retain sins, so that people would be able to hear those precious words in their ears “your sins are forgiven”. They passed this power on to their successors. Jesus wants these words to be said by His ministers, and to be heard by His flock.

I also thought of this passage when considering this subject and I agree that this is about post-baptismal sin however, this passage has nothing to do with confession of sin to a priest at all. It has to do with non-confession of sin. I agree however that the Bible does give authority to the leaders of the church to “deliver such a one to satan…”

I did not mention that, but we are in agreement on this point. You wanted an example of when the Apostles did not forgive confessed sins. This is not to be found, since the church believes and teaches that, when we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins. Sins are always absolved when a good confession is made. Forgiveness is only retained when there is NOT a good confession, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira, and possibly Simon the Magician. The text is not clear if Simon is repentant, or if he just wants to avoid the consequences of his sins.

Wow, so John the Baptist was wrong after all.  That is heavy.

I don’t see how you get this out of what I said. How is John wrong to listen to people’s confessions?

The fact that some may have made private confessions does not invalidate the one’s that were private.

 

[guanophore]

So John had to believe that God spoke to him personally and directly and not through the God-established religion and he had to “rebel” from the Jewish leaders in order to be obedient to God.  Interesting.

No, John was brought up on that “God established religion”. His family was a holy and devout Jewish family, and he was steeped in it from before he was born.

Luke 1:5-6

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I am sure he did receive revelation from God personally and directly, and that what he received was entirely consistent with what he was taught by his parents.

I will agree, though, that he did run into friction with the faithless who were sitting on the seat of Moses. Remember, though, Jesus instructed the disciples to “do as they say”.

No, of course not.  However, I do not believe that I am forgiven because I did.  I believe that I am forgiven because of the love of God - that He so loved me that He gave His Son to pay the debt that I could never pay.

It is very Catholic of you to say this! This may seem like a surprise to you, but there are a lot of people who have trouble grasping that they are forgiven because of the love of God, and it really helps them to hear the words in their ears by a person who represents Jesus and the Church.

A priest is any person who stands between God and man.  In the OT the common people would take their offering to the priest to be offered to God.  They were not allowed to offer anything to God on their own.

You are creating a false dichotomy. A priest is a person who facilitiates offerings to God. The priest is the one who assists the person who is making an offering to God to do it according to the manner in which He has ordained. He is there to ensure that the sacrifice is efficacious. He is not an impediment or a blockage, but a servant/minister of God’s grace.

In the NT, Jesus is our mediator who stands between us and the Father.  There is no longer a priest on earth but there is a Priest in heaven.  All believers are invited to come boldly to His throne to find mercy and help in our time of need.

Yes, Jesus is our mediator. You did not explain, though, what is meant by “earthly priesthood”. Do you see what the OT priests did as “earthly” as opposed to spiritual?

While the presbyter does labor in the word, he does not stand between the believer and God.

This is true. The function of the priest is facilitative, and not “blocking”. I think you have gotten this notion of the priesthood as some sort of impediment. It may be a reflection of centuries of anti-catholicism just filtering through.

That is why they were not called priests in the NT.  Each believer in the NT is commanded to go boldly to His throne to find forgiveness and mercy.

They were not called priests in the NT because the word did not exist for several centuries.

The NT was written in Gk, and the word “presbyter” had to go through several layers of transformation to be truncated into the modern word for “priest”.

If you look at the word presbyter in NT, I think it will be clear that their role is not an impediment, but facilitative.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

Priests embody the ministry of mediation that Christ is.

2 Cor 5:17-20
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

They are ambassadors. An ambassador does not take the place of the one who send him. He fulfills the desires of the one who sent him, since he could not be present in person.

Acts 14:20-23
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico’nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.

The Apostles appointed elders to take their place in strengthening the souls of the discip;es, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and to support their spiritual growth. The presbyter is not an impediment between the faithful and God, but an instrument of His grace.

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by **cazayoux **
I guess I need to know WHICH parts of scripture I MUST understand to be saved???

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This is the truth that saves a man. Any truth beyond this cannot save anyone

I find it quite peculiar that this thread started with a challenge to Catholics about a particular verse, John 6:53, and 50+ pages later it turns out, Russ, that it’s all irrelevant to you anyway!

All we Catholics needed to respond with was that we affirm John 3:16, so that should be good enough for you. We could have quoted Russ and said, "What you do not understand is that Catholic salvation is NOT dependent upon our correct understanding of every scripture. Salvation is only by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. God will correct my understanding of His word as HE sees fit and in HIS timing."

We could have ended the discussion on page 2 (but it certainly wouldn’t have been as much fun!)

 

[BereanRuss]

NO Decent theology rips one verse out of context and uses it to beat other believers over the head, and then claims that the other person’s theology “does not reconcile these verses” or “even care that it does not” when that person refuses to arrive at the conclusion you demand or, worse, when that person has the nerve to quote chapters in answer to you.

You know Michael, I definitely think you have a point. I ask your forgiveness.

Could you please answer MY CHAPTERS demonstrating that the Catholic Priesthood is a continuance, not of the Aaronic Priesthood…

I do not believe that the CC priesthood is a continuance of the Aaronic priesthood. I simply believe that there is no need for an earthly priesthood because all have access to the throne of grace.

How can I keep from singing your praise? How can I ever say enough, how amazing is Your love.
How can I keep from shouting your Name? I know I am loved by the King and it makes my heart want to sing!

 

[BereanRuss]

Yet you and Ralphy disagree. Who is correct? Is one of you saved and one of you damned? Or are you disagreeing only on “nonessential” aspects as you alluded to earlier?

These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:

A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. [Prov 6:16-19]

 

[BereanRuss]

You have a good point, and I agree, we are all responsible to study and make decisions based upon what has been revealed to us. I am not sure I agree that people who listened to the leaders of thetime would necessarily have rejected Him. If they were not at least saying the right things, Jesus would never have instructed the people to follow them.

I won’t argue with you. I think you are being very gracious toward the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, but I won’t argue with you.

 

[BereanRuss]

All the quotes you have provided here are Catholic. They are in the NT because they are part of Catholic teaching, which is where the entire NT came from.:

The word of God is just that, the word of God. He alone should receive the credit for preserving it and proclaiming it. Should we not praise the author rather than the steward of it?

Getting tired. More later.

 

[joe370]

Russ, I know a lot of people are throwing questions at you, but I’ll still ask, and maybe you will find the time to respond, and this is my last question; I respect you and the church to which you belong, and your right to believe what ever you want, including your symbolical interpretation of John 6:53; I guess we will all know in the end…

How can hundreds AND HUNDREDS of churches, (both teacher and pupil of said churches) --isolated from one another, all believing that Scripture via private interpretation is the only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines, all the while teaching something different when it comes to any one particular doctrine found in the Holy Bible, be the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Can there be more than one truth regarding any one doctrine?

My former Lutheran church believes in the symbolical interpretation of John 6, and a Pastor from a different Lutheran church, who I met here at CAF, believes in a literal interpretation of John 6, and they both defer to the bible for their answers; who’s right and who is wrong? They both can’t be right, can they? I honestly could not answer this question as a former Lutheran, and I still can’t as a Catholic.

God bless…

 

[Traditional_Ang]

The message of the Gospel is not negotiable for in it is the power of salvation.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

In addition, prior to being born of the Spirit by the power of the gospel, it is impossible to understand the Bible.

But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Therefore the Gospel must come first for it is by the Gospel that a person’s heart is opened to understand the word of God.

Russ:

I don’t think you answered PRmerger & NotWorthy. Our Lord didn’t just say to “Preach the Gospel” and he didn’t just to “be born of the Spirit”. He said in the Gospel of Matthew (50 AD):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 5:17-20 ESV

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Matt. 28:18-20 ESV
In the Gospel of Mark(55 AD):
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16 ESV
In the Acts of the Apostles (60 AD):So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:6-11 ESV

So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers… And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 2:41-42, 46-47 RSV
Please note that Greek in Acts 2:42 for “The Braking of the Bread” is the same as that used by the Apostle Paul in his description of what our Lord did in the Institution of the Eucharist, and that for “The Prayers” is the same as the Jews used for the Prayers used for the Seder and Pagans used for prayers during Sacrifices in “Cultic Liturgies”. These are both CATHOLIC Technical Terms…

More to follow…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Berean Russ:

Continued from the previous Post…

Please consider these from the Gospel of John (70-75 AD):On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
John 20:19-23 ESV

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love (Agape) me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love (Fileo) you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (agape) me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love (Fileo) you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love (Fileo) me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love (Fileo) me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love (Fileo) you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”
John 21:15-19 ESV
From the Book of the Prophet Daniel
"I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 ESV
And, from the Book of the Prophet Isaiah - Please note that God is replacing the Prime Minister and taking away his KEYS and giving them to another!
Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: What have you to do here, and whom have you here, that you have cut out here a tomb for yourself, you who cut out a tomb on the height and carve a dwelling for yourself in the rock? Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you and whirl you around and around, and throw you like a ball into a wide land. There you shall die, and there shall be your glorious chariots, you shame of your master’s house. I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. on his shoulder. And I will place the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. And they will hang on him the whole honor of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way, and it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken.”
Isaiah 22:15-25 ESV
It is said in the Mishna that, during the fall of Jerusalem, while the Holy Temple was burning, the High Priest climbed to the rooftop, took the keys from his neck and asked God to take away his keys if he were no longer worthy to bear them. An angel came down from heaven and took the keys from his hand - If you look at the symbol for the Holy See (the Crossed Keys) you are looking at the keys the angel took from the High Priest’s hand.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

You know Michael, I definitely think you have a point. I ask your forgiveness.

Russ

Apology accepted.

Russ, you still haven’t dealt with the fact that the Early Church had Bishops (Episcopoi), Priest (presbyteroi) and Deacons (Deaconia) from the middle of the 1st Century on. You still haven’t dealt with the fact that in that Early Church, Bishops (or the Priests in absence of the Bishops) offered the Divine Liturgy where simple bread and wine was changed into our Lord’s Body and Blood, and that Early Catholics would have rather died a horrible death than been deprived of our Lord’s Body and Blood (which they called “The Medicine of Immortality”).

Is this just too much like modern day Catholic and Orthodox Churches and too different from Modern Protestant Churches for you to deal with?

I do not believe that the CC priesthood is a continuance of the Aaronic priesthood. I simply believe that there is no need for an earthly priesthood because all have access to the throne of grace.

Since Catholic and Orthodox priests act in Persona Christi and Jesus Christ is the Great High Priest in the order of Melchizadek and has given his authority to his Apostles and their successors, then what line are Catholic and Orthodox priests in?

And, How do you deal with this from James and with the next one from Hebrews?
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
James 5:14-16 ESV

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever… Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace,… We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured… Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name…

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Hebrews 13:7-17 ESV
The first is clearly the Sacrament of Anointing the sick – Elders = Presbyteroi (Priests). James didn’t say to pray directly to the Lord - He said to go to the presbyteroi, the priests! and, The one from Hebrews clearly talks about the Altar and the Sacrifice of the Mass. Please also note that the author of Hebrews talks about the Mass strengthening the heart by Grace. and, The Mishna said that, in after the Coming of the Messiah, the only sacrifice that would be offered would be the “Sacrifice of Praise” - which is referred to in Hebrews 13:15.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[AmbroseSJ]

BereanRuss:

I do not believe that the CC priesthood is a continuance of the Aaronic priesthood. I simply believe that there is no need for an earthly priesthood because all have access to the throne of grace.

You are no doubt basing this on some verse in Scripture that says precisely that? Because if you are inferring that from other verses in Scripture that just don’t happen to spell out this doctrine for you, then you are in grievous error.

You will not find complete doctrines all neatly defined in Sacred Scripture. That is not what Scripture is about, or trying to do. See John Henry Newman’s Anglican period work: Tract 85 which gives most excellent arguments for why Scripture proofs for Church doctrines are so difficult. Most “popular Protestants” and/or fundamentalists viz: born again christians should definitely give this a read. Especially those of you, (you know who you are) that were formerly Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:

A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, **And one who sows discord among brethren. ** [Prov 6:16-19]

Are you not sowing discord, Russ? You can’t have it both ways–challenge people on these forums, then when you’re challenged back, run and hide.

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

If 2 people such as you and Ralph, disagree about a particular interpretation, is one saved and one damned?

It simply doesn’t make sense that “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you believe in Christ.”

You can’t have it both ways, Russ. Either Scripture matters, or it doesn’t.

 

[ralphy]

How did those who heard Jesus know that He was right and the religious leaders were wrong?

What you do not understand is that my salvation and Ralph’s salvation is NOT dependant upon our correct understanding of every scripture. Salvation is only by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. God will correct my understanding of His word as HE sees fit and in HIS timing.

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. [Rom 14:4]

Ralph is not my servant nor is he yours. Ralph is God’s servant and God is able to make him stand.

I support Russ in the above statement (and whenever he is following scripture), regarding salvation. One does not have to know a lot of scripture or even very much scripture to be saved. One has to know ,first of all,that one is lost and dead in sin Rom:3:23. Secondly one must understand Rom: 6:23. Thirdly, one must understand Eph:2:8,9 (I have used this verse many times, however you cannot wear it out). This is not a “head” understanding, but must come from the heart. In 1977 I realized from the word of God, after attending several bible studies, that I was on the road to hell and unable to save myself. I followed scripture and turned to God, repenting of my sin and turning to Him , fully trusting in what He said, that if I came to Him , that He would in no way cast me out and accepting this “free” gift of salvation that He offered, I asked Him to come into my life and save me, which He did. I am so thankfull to know Him in a personal way and to follow Him with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. PTL. Ralph

 

[NotWorthy]

I support Russ in the above statement (and whenever he is following scripture), regarding salvation. One does not have to know a lot of scripture or even very much scripture to be saved. One has to know ,first of all,that one is lost and dead in sin Rom:3:23. Secondly one must understand Rom: 6:23. Thirdly, one must understand Eph:2:8,9 (I have used this verse many times, however you cannot wear it out). This is not a “head” understanding, but must come from the heart. In 1977 I realized from the word of God, after attending several bible studies, that I was on the road to hell and unable to save myself. I followed scripture and turned to God, repenting of my sin and turning to Him , fully trusting in what He said, that if I came to Him , that He would in no way cast me out and accepting this “free” gift of salvation that He offered, I asked Him to come into my life and save me, which He did. I am so thankfull to know Him in a personal way and to follow Him with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. PTL. Ralph

Amen, Ralphy! And may God stay with you on your journey, until He welcomes you into His loving arms!

 

[pete_29]

Pete,

Thank you for a thoughtful, reasonable answer. My point is that in order for you to have believed Jesus when He came, you would have to make the decision for yourself based upon what you understood the scriptures to say. If you simply listen to the instruction of the religious leaders at the time of Christ, you would have rejected Him just as they did.

God holds us accountable to know and understand His word. We must apply what we understand to be the truth to our lives and continue to grow and trust that God will correct us if we do not understand Him clearly.

Both Protestants and Catholics are studying God’s word for one purpose – to know Him and the truth that sets us free.

Where did I say I would have rejected Him. I might have not known a lick of Scripture and still accepted Him. The point is I couldn’t know, niether could you, or niether could anyone else since we were not put in that situation.

I’ll ask again. Why would Jesus not put some kind of authority in His Church, knowing that humans would never agree by themselves the meaning of any verse of Scripture? I mean, doesn’t there have to be a centralized teaching authority so that we would have one church (Body of Christ) of many instead of many churches of individual interpretations. This just seems logical to me.

 

[BereanRuss]

How can hundreds AND HUNDREDS of churches, (both teacher and pupil of said churches) --isolated from one another, all believing that Scripture via private interpretation is the only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines, all the while teaching something different when it comes to any one particular doctrine found in the Holy Bible, be the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Can there be more than one truth regarding any one doctrine?

The truth is this. All men are sinners. The wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.

I think about 99% of protestants believe these truths.

Again, salvation is not dependant upon understanding perfectly every scripture. Salvation comes by believing the Gospel.

Only after a person has received the Gospel can they begin to understand the truth in the Bible. God teaches each believer as HE see fit - for the word of God is living and powerful.

The church is not the “Pillar and Foundation of truth” because she has a correct and perfect catechism. The church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth because she is steward of the perfect word of God and is empowered by the Spirit of God to proclaim this truth to the world.

 

[NotWorthy]

The truth is this. All men are sinners. The wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, you will be saved.

I think about 99% of protestants believe these truths.

Again, salvation is not dependant upon understanding perfectly every scripture. Salvation comes by believing the Gospel.

Only after a person has received the Gospel can they begin to understand the truth in the Bible. God teaches each believer as HE see fit - for the word of God is living and powerful.

The church is not the “Pillar and Foundation of truth” because she has a correct and perfect catechism. The church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth because she is steward of the perfect word of God and is empowered by the Spirit of God to proclaim this truth to the world.

This is ironic. Here we have a Christian saying that Scripture is not too critical to our Salvation, and that’s its just important to follow Christ. And the Catholic Church, since the very first century, insuring that Scripture is not mis-interpreted, guarding the Faith, and making sure that none of the Faithful are teaching in error.

Actually, it’s the way I’ve always thought it was, but its rare that its been evidenced so clearly on this thread.

 

[BereanRuss]

Russ, I know a lot of people are throwing questions at you…

Hey Joe, now that I think about it, do you ever answer my questions? Which is greater, the baptims of water or the Baptism of fire? If a person is baptized in water but not in file will not his baptism become un-baptism?

Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. [Rom 2:26…]

 

[NotWorthy]

Hey Joe, now that I think about it, do you ever answer my questions? Which is greater, the baptims of water or the Baptism of fire? If a person is baptized in water but not in file will not his baptism become un-baptism?

When a person is baptized, using the proper form and matter, there is no difference between baptism of water and baptism of fire.