Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[joe370]

It seems then that water baptism isn’t necessary… as long as you are crucified right next to our Savior. Otherwise, I will believe Him through the Church He left us, the one of “He who hears you hears Me” fame and the one that still teaches the “born of water and Spirit” told to Nicodemus as well as the Apostles.

Hey Earnest…

Why did Jesus come from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him, by actual water? John tried to prevent him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me. Why did Jesus say to him in reply, allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness?

[No doubt you will come away from this passage with a different interpretation; see how the Bible, via private interpretation, as our one and only authority, simply does not work!!!]

Jesus clearly allowed John to baptize Him; Jesus clearly came up from actual water, and immediately after coming out of said water, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove upon him.

Perhaps this is what happens to every person who is baptized, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, only we are not lucky enough to actually witness the dove; what do you think; is that a possibility? I have to be honest; if Jesus thought it was necessary, shouldn’t we all…?

Remember, Christians have been baptizing one another since Pentecost, the birth of Jesus’ one church; the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus’ one Apostolic Church, circa 33 AD, to remind Jesus’ one church, ALL that Jesus taught, as per the Holy Bible; did the Holy Spirit teach a heretical doctrine, on that fateful day --Pentecost???

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saved?

Question to those who know the writings of the Church Fathers and early Christian history: is the above (are you saved?) a question that was asked of the early Christians?

My understanding is that this is a question that has only been in popularity since the 20th century…am I correct?

 

[BereanRuss]

They have to do with establishing the disciplines of the Church, including when and how Confessions are to be done.

Did you even read the “binding and loosing” passages? Are you just parroting what others have told you? Please show me in the context of these passages anything that has to do with confession of sin.

 

[BereanRuss]

…I signed a “4 Spiritual Laws” tract one time when I was a kid, which I think was supposed to be my written guarantee of salvation.)

Did they get that from the BIble? If so, please sight the passage.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, honestly I am not sure what you are referring to when you say I am backpedaling. Did you ask me a question that I did not answer?

No, not this time.

You boldly asked for a Scriptural reference to Jesus praying to Saints, as if to indicate that Catholic teaching on intercessory prayer to Saints is un-Biblical. Then, when a verse is provided, you do not acknowledge that your request was granted.

 

[jmcrae]

Did you even read the “binding and loosing” passages? Are you just parroting what others have told you? Please show me in the context of these passages anything that has to do with confession of sin.

Did you read what I wrote, at all? I said, these words have to do with the establishment of discipline in the Church. (ie: the Apostles get to make the rules, and people have to follow them, because God affirms in Heaven what the Apostles require on earth.)

I should probably have just stopped right there, but then I went on to explain the role of the discipline of the Church in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Obviously, I obscured my main point in so doing.

 

[jmcrae]

Did they get that from the Bible? If so, please sight the passage.

There were a lot of Bible verses on it, and they were arranged in such a way that when you read them one after the other, it seemed as if I could just say the name of Jesus and be saved forever!! (Of course, since it was a really short pamphlet, they couldn’t include the whole Bible on it, and so they edited out the verses that say things like “unless you” do this or that, “you will not have life within you,” etc.)

Then it said, just sign on the back, and all the promises in the Bible verses will come true for you. (Or something to that effect - it was a while ago, now.)

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with Russ, water baptism is not necessary for salvation, like the thief on the cross, looks like he never got baptised, but went home to glory. Spiritual baptism in necessary to enter heaven, born from above. Ralph

So, Ralph, there has to be a way to determine whose interpretation of Scripture is true. Either water baptism is normative and necessary–as many Bible Christians believe–or it’s not.

In your theology, how do we determine which interpretation is correct? Both groups have read the same Bible and have come up with totally different theologies. Now what?

 

[joe370]

Russ, I don’t know about Prmerger, but you have yet to answer my question; no big deal. I must say again; you multi-task really well! This post was originally addressed to Ralph, but perhaps you could shed some light…

I ask again; how did a bunch of sinful, fallible men manage to codify/canonized the infallible/inerrant word of God, and I agree with you: no man is sin free; no man is infallible? The obvious answer, as per the Holy Bible is: through the Infallible inspiration, power and guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who inspired the One Holy C.C. to codify/canonized your Holy Bible! Ralph, at which point in history did the Holy Spirit stop inspiring, teaching and guiding the Holy C.C.???

Remember, you are the one (Ralph) --that said that the C.C. taught and passed on the heretical doctrine of the true presence, as early as the turn of the 1st century, detracting from what the Holy Spirit truly taught and passed on to the Apostles, making the C.C. an apostate church, as early as the turn of the 1st century!!! The same reputed apostate church that gave you your very Holy and inerrant Bible; what’s wrong with this picture Ralph???

If the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with this bogus teaching of the Eucharist, which was believed by all, as early as the 1st century, then perhaps He just let this one slide…no big deal!!! The important thing, is that the H.S. stuck around long enough to make sure that this apostate church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and the House of the Living God, to which Christ is the Head and Savior, accurately codified and canonized the word of God, at which point He stopped “guiding” her, as the bride of Christ, in perpetuity --a promise made to her by Jesus Christ, as per the Holy Bible. After all,** it was the codified/canonized Bible that** Jesus, via the work of the fallible C.C., thanks to the guidance of the Infallible H.S. –gave to the world, circa 393 AD, and it was/is to be interpreted by anyone --**not the church to which Jesus said:
**
you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Go, therefore, and* make disciples of all nations***, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always,** until the end of the age.**

Help me out here Ralph…? I am really trying to understand where you are coming from; I use to be right where you are, a few years back.

I am not trying to be sarcastic, as you have been a few times; far from it! I am simply trying to see things through your myopic glasses; once I removed mine, life as a Christian was so much simpler, but that’s just me. If you truly believe that you are a member of the One church to which Jesus is the Head and Savior…truly a member of the House of the Living God and the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, where the H.S. teaches just one truth regarding any one truth, then you are truly Home! **The question is: am I, based on the preceding scenario??? **

 

[BereanRuss]

Question to those who know the writings of the Church Fathers and early Christian history: is the above (are you saved?) a question that was asked of the early Christians?

My understanding is that this is a question that has only been in popularity since the 20th century…am I correct?

It is a thoroughly Biblical phrase. Is that “early Christian” enough? Here are a few examples…

And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

These are just a sampling of course. There are many more.

 

[BereanRuss]

No, not this time.

You boldly asked for a Scriptural reference to Jesus praying to Saints, as if to indicate that Catholic teaching on intercessory prayer to Saints is un-Biblical. Then, when a verse is provided, you do not acknowledge that your request was granted.

A verse was ripped out of context and presented as evidence so no verse was really provided.

 

[PRmerger]

A verse was ripped out of context and presented as evidence so no verse was really provided.

Can’t help you there, Russ. You asked for it. You got it. Now you’re saying it doesn’t mean what it means. Now who do we go to?

 

[BereanRuss]

Did you read what I wrote, at all? I said, these words have to do with the establishment of discipline in the Church. (ie: the Apostles get to make the rules, and people have to follow them, because God affirms in Heaven what the Apostles require on earth.)

Please quote me the verse(s) from a “binding and loosing” passage that has anything to do with confession.

 

[jmcrae]

Please quote me the verse(s) from a “binding and loosing” passage that has anything to do with confession.

Why?

I have not claimed that those verses mention Confession. Read my post again.

 

[PRmerger]

It is a thoroughly Biblical phrase. Is that “early Christian” enough? Here are a few examples…

And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

]He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

These are just a sampling of course. There are many more.

Thanks for all the verses about salvation.

I just didn’t see *even one *that says the Christians asked each other “are you saved?”.

I’m willing to bet that even your grandparents didn’t have that in their lexicon…

 

[PRmerger]

These are just a sampling of course. There are many more.

Interesting. You didn’t include the one that says “Not everyone who cries ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved.”

 

[BereanRuss]

Can’t help you there, Russ. You asked for it. You got it. Now you’re saying it doesn’t mean what it means. Now who do we go to?

When Jesus appears in glory and you see Moses and Elijah and you are permitted to speak by the Father, you can join in the conversation as well. Until then you have one mediator - Jesus.

There is no priest in the NT church. Though there are many prayers in the Bible, there are no prayers to any saints in the entire Bible.

 

[joe370]

Russ, you said:

When Jesus appears in glory and you see Moses and Elijah and you are **permitted to speak by the Father, you can join in the conversation as well. Until then you have one mediator - Jesus.

There is no priest in the NT church. Though there are many prayers in the Bible, there are no prayers to any saints in the entire Bible.**

Thank you for that mediation Russ regarding the the whole saints thing. I can’t seem to locate, in the bible, where it says: don’t ask a saint in heaven to pray for you; only ask sinners on earth to pray for you. Without your intercession, I would have been totally lost regarding this teaching of Jesus!

Why beat a horse to death; we know you don’t believe in the N.T. priesthood; just say: there is nothing any catholic can say that will convince me that there is a valid N.T. priesthood, and we can all move on to something else; perhaps you could start a new thread, regarding a new topic! If you don’t believe that, then let us all stick around and continue to rehash the issue.

Joe…

 

[guanophore]

Can you show me any documentation of anyone teaching this after the time of Christ, Ralph? How about in the 2nd century? Or the 5th century? Or the 11th century?

We know there really isn’t any, but it is a very valid question. Can you address it on another thread?

 

[PRmerger]

When Jesus appears in glory and you see Moses and Elijah and you are permitted to speak by the Father, you can join in the conversation as well. Until then you have one mediator - Jesus.

Amen! We pray with the Saints, who are one with the Lord in heaven, by permission of the Father. There is nothing you said above that Catholic teaching contradicts.

There is no priest in the NT church. Though there are many prayers in the Bible, there are no prayers to any saints in the entire Bible.

Didn’t we go over this priest thing already?

There’s also no altar call, no example of anyone asking each other “are you saved” as a litmus test of their faith, no bible studies, no one ever asking anyone, “if you died today, do you have the assurance that you’d go to heaven?” yet, those are all things Bible-only Christians do.