Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[losh14]

If I can return for a minute to the idea of invincible ignorance, it may be helpful to extrapolate this out both ways. Note that this is entirely theoretical - we cannot know the state of anyone’s salvation though we can know our personal relationship with Christ in terms of the disposition of our hearts and minds towards Him.

A more general concept might be to say that you’re responsible for the revelation given to you. This means that if you never know the fullness of the Catholic Church, you are not responsible for it; if you do know the fullness, you are responsible for it.

Those who remain in ignorance through no fault of their own are not judged as those who are given full knowledge - remember that Scripture says all will be judged by our deeds as well as by our faith. It would be capricious of God to judge someone for revelation they have not received - even our Protestant brethren would agree that God would not condemn someone who has never read the Bible nor heard the Gospel.
I conceive of such persons as:

• Persons raised geographically isolated from Catholicism (ie, China and Saudi Arabia, where Catholicism is outlawed and severely punished)
• Persons raised with severe emotional barriers to Catholicism (ie, the post from a former Adventist above - thanks kindly for sharing your story, BTW)
• Persons whose minds are closed because of actions of Church leaders (if you had a terrible priest, completely whacked education or even suffered abuse at the hands of a priest) - think of Jesus’ warning that “it would be better a millstone tied around their neck than they had ever been born” to such persons who cause others to lose faith.

As a respondent noted in the Catechism above, it is the mission of the Church to share the Gospel and the Truth of the Catholic Church to all who remain in ignorance. We are commanded to try to reach everyone, crossing all barriers whether geographical, emotional, epistemological or empirical.

Having this in mind, what could we make of our Protestant brethren? I would think that has to do with how much they understand of the Church and whether their barriers to understanding are self-made or imposed by other restrictions.

Consider this generally first: if you come to believe by whatever means of revelation given to you that there is a requirement for salvation that is not being met and you do not attempt to overcome whatever barrier is in the way, are you refusing to be saved?

Specifically, if a non-Catholic discerns a call to Catholicism and refuses out of sheer stubbornness, that is willfull ignorance and is perilous.

If the refusal is out of need for avoiding other ills - and I am very hard-pressed to think of an example - then I think that is non-condemnable.

Honestly, the only example I can think of is rather extreme - a person in a non-Catholic family whose conversion to Catholicism would result in the dissolution of marriage and family. Even in such an extreme situation, I don’t think that justifies putting off the conversion forever, but rather involves working towards moving the entire family towards Catholicism. I worked with a woman whose family began as Southern Baptists but her husband converted. She went along with the conversion (reluctantly) but told me she hates the Mass so much it drives her to tears. She said she saw nothing but paganism in the church itself and everytime she looked at the priest she wanted to shout “pedophile!” though there had been no accusations against this priest. Clearly these are emotional barriers that must be overcome. I gave her my copy of David Currie’s “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic”, hopefully it helped her. But she did tell me that the only reason she stayed in the marriage and converted was because she believed the husband was the spiritual head of the household and God was telling her to follow suit for some unknown ineffable reason.

What about epistemological barriers? There are those who are cradle Protestants, who are raised with beliefs and come to perhaps other beliefs later in life. If they discern a call to the Catholic Church but do not answer, I could understand that as being perilous, perhaps even damning, by the same logic that one who reads Scripture and understands that faith in Jesus is required for salvation but still refuses to believe because of some hard-heartedness or willfull persistence in sin would be lost. Consider, however, the case of my co-worker who follows the Way of the Master. Based on repeated conversations with him, I don’t think he’s ever read more than 20 verses of Scripture, and only those that suppot Kirk and Ray’s specific ministry. When I bring up the Book of James or 3 John, he rejects it by saying that the Gospels and Acts are more important - is this Sola Fide Lite? Regardless, this is a profound epistemological barrier, and I hope a short-lived one.

I should make one final note of another group, those who are nominally Catholic but who embrace really nothing of the Catholic Church. These are the folks who, if they attend Mass, do so grudgingly and spend the next 6 days and 23 hours as though nothing had happened. These folks are badly in need of evangelizing by the Church, of being brought closer to Christ, because they remain in willfull ignorance (actually, more like willfull neglect) of Christ’s teachings. They may receive the Sacraments, at least in the physical sense, but if their hearts and minds are closed they are really receiving none of the Grace intrinsic to them, and so I’d call their salvation into question.

I had meant for this to be brief, and I wasn’t able to do so. Forgive me that. But suffice to say, we leave those outside of the Church to God’s Mercy and trust Him to be Just as well as Merciful.

 

[prodigal-sun]

I was reading other posts just seeing what I can learn about Catholicism and I found this in a post.

“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation” - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV

Catholics believe that that people from all walks of life will choose to be in Hell! The Catholic church also believes that people from all walks of life will also choose Heaven. When they choose heaven it will be through the Catholic church that they make it there. This of course could happen while either living or dead. But just to make it perfectly clear all those who get to heaven will have gone through the Catholic Church!

Peace:thumbsup:

 

[savienu]

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

I think the bolded phrase is the key there. If the person is ignorant, he may attain salvation. He MAY. But his best hope of salvation is within the arms of Holy Mother Church, the Church Christ established Himself.

But the judging of someone’s soul we are commanded by Jesus NOT to do, so no one here can in good conscience say ANYONE is condemned to Hell, OR assured Heaven.

 

[CentralFLJames]

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

I think the bolded phrase is the key there. If the person is ignorant, he may attain salvation. He MAY. But his best hope of salvation is within the arms of Holy Mother Church, the Church Christ established Himself.

But the judging of someone’s soul we are commanded by Jesus NOT to do, so no one here can in good conscience say ANYONE is condemned to Hell, OR assured Heaven.

True. But the way CCC 147 is worded in the Catechism I think is unfortunate. It is expressed as “MAY” and it could be mistakenly taken in the semantic of “permitted” or “grants” rather than “possible” (e.g. “…those too MAY achieve eternal salvation.”). Further, there is another more onerous aspect to “invincible ignorance” that I believe is more often than not paired with the whole concept of primacy of moral conscience so God is not mocked. That is, there is NO WAY POSSIBLE for anyone to be relieved of the moral responsibility for sins committed against good conscience. So on one hand a person may escape the necessity of being a formal member of the Catholic Church (“escape” only in the sense of fleeing the pursuing desires of The Church to come to the aid of the sinner with the provisions of the sacraments) but in escaping it is highly likely such a one runs head long into mortal sin in committing grave sins against moral conscience which are self condeming. From CCC 1860: But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man
Relevant Catechism:

Outside the Church there is no salvation
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

**MORAL CONSCIENCE **
1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

**I. THE JUDGMENT OF CONSCIENCE **
1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ [ed: POPE].50

**IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT **
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

**IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN **
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart 133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.*

James

 

[Hippocrit]

CentralFLJames is essentially saying that all Christians must research the claims of the RCC actively and not passively wait for it to be explained to them. If they do not, or if they reject the claims, then are destined for hell. In short, then, the answer to the question is: Yes. Everyone, except the severely retarded and infants, is going to hell unless they join the RCC.

Further reading on Vatican II leads me to believe that CentralFLJames’s interpretation of this doctrine is overly harsh. The Catholic Church does recognize that Protestants have a partially valid relationship with Christ. Still, I’d like to hear an official response from a authoritative source in the RCC on this.

I will say that, if this interpretation is true, the RCC needs to become much more active in evangelical activities to bring errant Christians back into the fold. They need to be sending all their vast resources out into the mission field – leadership and laity. It is their sacred duty to try and rescue as many souls as possible from Hell. You aren’t a “compassionate” worry-wart if all you do is worry; compassion is only evident through activity. At least from my perspective as a Protestant, the Catholic Church doesn’t really try very hard to explain why to people and bring them back into the RCC. I’ve never personally been approached by the RCC and have never heard of an active outreach program run by the RCC. It may be there but it is awful quiet.

Please don’t take this as an attack on the RCC. I am a Protestant earnestly seeking to understand if I need to become a Catholic. But it seems I am trying awfully hard to seek her out; she doesn’t really seem to be seeking me in any concrete way.

 

[aspirant]

I’ve never… heard of an active outreach program run by the RCC.

Says a person on the forum of one of the largest Catholic apologetics organizations in the world.

 

[CentralFLJames]

CentralFLJames is essentially saying that all Christians must research the claims of the RCC actively and not passively wait for it to be explained to them. If they do not, or if they reject the claims, then are destined for hell. In short, then, the answer to the question is: Yes. Everyone, except the severely retarded and infants, is going to hell unless they join the RCC.

Further reading on Vatican II leads me to believe that CentralFLJames’s interpretation of this doctrine is overly harsh. The Catholic Church does recognize that Protestants have a partially valid relationship with Christ. Still, I’d like to hear an official response from a authoritative source in the RCC on this.

I will say that, if this interpretation is true, the RCC needs to become much more active in evangelical activities to bring errant Christians back into the fold. They need to be sending all their vast resources out into the mission field – leadership and laity. It is their sacred duty to try and rescue as many souls as possible from Hell. You aren’t a “compassionate” worry-wart if all you do is worry; compassion is only evident through activity. At least from my perspective as a Protestant, the Catholic Church doesn’t really try very hard to explain why to people and bring them back into the RCC. I’ve never personally been approached by the RCC and have never heard of an active outreach program run by the RCC. It may be there but it is awful quiet.

Please don’t take this as an attack on the RCC. I am a Protestant earnestly seeking to understand if I need to become a Catholic. But it seems I am trying awfully hard to seek her out; she doesn’t really seem to be seeking me in any concrete way.

This is an old discussion that you are reactivating. I had to go back and re-read what was said to get reacquainted with it.

First off let me say that you are putting your own judgements into my words and editorializing and forming your own conclusions – which appear to me to be wrong and over simplified. Most of what I mentioned in my post were not my own words at all but rather the exact and actual teachings of the Catholic Church as stated in the Catechism paragraphs referenced. Only the Catholic Magesterium can interpret the moral teachings beyond the literal words conveyed. The Church will never judge an individual soul since only God knows the interior state of one’s soul. Rather, the Church will give instruction on morality or will only speak out against observed behaviors that appear to be morally wrong with reference to proper moral teaching to inform the moral conscience. It is up to the individual to accept or reject moral teaching.

Your interpretation of my words are overly harsh of me. You need to read the catechism that I referenced and take it to heart. It seems plain enough to me. No one is relieved of the primal principals of morality and can claim ignorance to the gravity of conscience. Our very human nature compels us to know truth and to investigate our interior condition as well as our relationship with fellowman and God. To deny that call to know truth is to deny one’s human nature which would be opting out of the human race (and we have no knowledge of any other creatures save the angels who are invited to beatitude with God).

My conscience is formed by the teaching of the Catholic Church and it tells me quite plainly that we all have a moral obligation to seek and follow the truth and to not only reject falsehood personally but to educate and incite others to also reject falsehood. It seems to me that The Church has made it clear for many centuries that there is no salvation outside of The Catholic Church ( Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus). Protestants are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church and so some may be saved through invincible ignorance of their necessity to be full and practising members of the Catholic Church. But none will be saved who dies impenitent with unforgiven grave post-baptismal sins (sins of a grave nature that were committed out of deliberate acts of will e.g. fornication, rejecting the pope’s moral teachings, adultury, disobedience of conscience etc.).

I will agree with some of your conclusions in that I agree that the Catholic Church needs to turn up the alarm levels though. Since post-Vatican II I do not believe that the Church has been as outspoken about the grave disorders of Protestantism and how risky it is to be anything less than a fully communed and practising member of the Catholic Church. But the Church had been trying for 500 years since the Protestant revolt to appeal to reason but has been met with severe contempt & rejection. These efforts to warn our Protestant brothers caused too much polarization and close minds to the point of rendering re-evangelizing ineffective. The Church has since seized its primary mission to evangelize souls – but in other other areas of the globe that have not yet been tainted with the errors of Protestantism. It still retains a desire to regain our seperated Protestant brothers and has opened up new ecumenical efforts - which sadly divides our resources into this slow and difficult process to re-teach the full truth to those who think they have the simple and easy answers of personal salvation already.

Personally I fear for the numbers of those Protestants who do not fall within the shaky grasp of the word “MAY” (be saved) and are eternally lost. That said, I also fear for the many “cultural Catholics” who are Catholic in name only but in practise and conduct are nothing of the sort.

I expect that The Church will soon be forced by the rise of secularism and paganism/hedonism in the west to reinvigorate its evangelization efforts again.

James

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Right n;ow the Archdiocese of Chicago has a huge outreach program going on called “Coming Home”. Many television advertisements inviting people to the Church.

 

[dz102789]

It’s not like God is just looking for a chance to cast people into hell!!! Give me a break! In my experience, invincible ignorance is a very common thing, especially in today’s world. Most Protestants don’t convert the Catholic faith precisely because they were taught differently. We forget how much our upbringing can effect us! Many can’t see the truth of the Catholic Church because they were raised to believe otherwise. We live in a world that teaches many things that are contrary to the faith. What the issue really comes down to is if one RECOGNIZES the truth of the Catholic Church, then they are bound to follow it. But many are given the truth and don’t recognize it as such. I truly believe that anyone who sincerely tries to follow the truth as they know it and follows the dictates of their conscience may attain salvation (through the Catholic Church). Only knowingly and willingly denying the Truth can send one to hell. God is our Loving Father not a merciless judge and tyrant!

 

[CentralFLJames]

It’s not like God is just looking for a chance to cast people into hell!!! Give me a break! In my experience, invincible ignorance is a very common thing, especially in today’s world. Most Protestants don’t convert the Catholic faith precisely because they were taught differently. We forget how much our upbringing can effect us! Many can’t see the truth of the Catholic Church because they were raised to believe otherwise. We live in a world that teaches many things that are contrary to the faith. What the issue really comes down to is if one RECOGNIZES the truth of the Catholic Church, then they are bound to follow it. But many are given the truth and don’t recognize it as such. I truly believe that anyone who sincerely tries to follow the truth as they know it and follows the dictates of their conscience may attain salvation (through the Catholic Church). Only knowingly and willingly denying the Truth can send one to hell. God is our Loving Father not a merciless judge and tyrant!

I don’t know what post your emotional response is directed at but I don’t recall anyone here saying or implying that God is looking to toss people into hell (!!). God loves us and wants us all to have a eternal relationship with him - even as we fail to be in a right relationship with Him.

But the same arguments you make for how hard it is to convert to the full truth can be made to the pagan Romans. How hard was it to face extreme persecution for disobeying the law and not worshiping Caesar and the legion of Roman false gods and face being eaten alive by lions or skinned alive for mere entertainment in public? By comparison to the saints of the early Church MOST in current times who call themselves Christians are complete wimps. Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust from their shoes and leave behind any who would not receive His word. He didn’t go back after the disciples who left him in John 6:66 and His teaching on real-presence either. Hopefully some later repented, came to their senses and returned. But the freedom to choose DOES have ETERNAL consequences - so we must CHOOSE wisely and deliberately. No one falls into heaven by accident. The gravity of original sin is defaulted to hell.

The most clever tactic of Satan was to offer humanity a new secular “Christianity Lite” viz the Protestant revolt. What could be more diabolical than to offer to people who want the blessings of Christianity a new and “easy” secular Christianity that requires no or little suffering and self denial? What treachery to re-package Christianity so one can assume they have a guarantee of salvation if they just only believe strongly that it is so? Satan attacks even Faith to mock it with an false guarantee based on a a new lie.

I can easily imagine Satan in hell laughing each time a deceived soul falls into hell robed in his soiled baptismal robes cursing his judgement: “But they told me I was saved when I declared Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior and that You would not be able to see any of my covered over sins!!”.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Right n;ow the Archdiocese of Chicago has a huge outreach program going on called “Coming Home”. Many television advertisements inviting people to the Church.

This is really good Marsha - we need more of this. But I am a bit jaded over the ecumenical programs I am seeing in my area. It seems some of the deacons were converts from other faiths and are going to these ecumenical outreach meeting and socializing with non-Catholics and rather than teach the faith are just co-mingling our assets to do “by committe” services (e.g. food, shelter programs). Then these people who are being given the charity are being picked off by the evangelicals who then go back door to door and aggressively recruit them away from the Catholic Church into their own “bible churches”.

I have actually heard one of these Catholics telling people “it doesn’t matter where you come from only that you arrive in heaven”. But of course this is a false teaching since the implication is that all religions are equal and there is no one holistic faith and the chances are just as good no matter where you begin.

I think we are going to have to re-train a lot of entrenched liberalism out of The Church before we are able to preach and evangelize to anyone on the outside here in the USA. Ironically some of the African Catholics now see the USA as a mission country in need of being re-catechized and are sending priests to help get American Catholics back in the pews and listening to the full truth and away from the pandering that is aplenty in various places.

James

 

[Hippocrit]

James,

Thank you for your response and I do apologize if my comments seemed harsh to you personally. Please understand that I don’t think you are making this up or that you are being judgmental. None of my comments should be taken as a personal attack.

Any claims of an exclusive path to salvation are going to cause offense and provoke hostility – especially in the present age of relativism. That doesn’t excuse us from witnessing about the Good News. Jesus warns us very plainly in the Bible that people will hate us because of Him. Since we know the truth about Jesus, we must witness right on up to the last minute before the Second Coming. Whether the Church has been rejected by Protestants for 500 years shouldn’t be a reason to stop. Being truly compassionate can entail some very hard truths. Any Christian, Protestant or Catholic, who fails to clearly lay out the eternal consequences for rejecting the salvation offered by Jesus Christ is actually being cruel in trying not to cause offense. That would not be any less true for Catholics witnessing to Protestants.

The questions seem to come up in interpreting the phrase, “through no fault of their own” in Catechism section 847. If your interpretation of “invincible ignorance” is indeed correct, “that Invincible Ignorance rarely comes into play” and that just having access to the Catechism “all but slays the excuse of ignorance for the vast majority of the educated planet”, that is what seems to be harsh when compared to some of the statements of Vatican II and the Catechism. I do apologize but it doesn’t seem clear to me at all. The interpretation of many people, including many Catholics, seems to be that if you are never taught the truth about the RCC then you will not be judged for that (such as SAIEditor’s comment above, “No, that is all old stuff. Ignore it.”) Your interpretation seems to be, with the statement of access to the Catechism above, that all mentally capable non-Catholics are without excuse. That argument also implicitly seems to indicate that reading the Catechism will automatically lead to the acceptance of the Catechism and then to conversion to Catholicism. I am really not trying to put words in your mouth. I’m just telling you how this comes across to me. If I am misstating your position, my apologies and please clarify.

So is it rejection of passively-received knowledge or the failure to actively acquire knowledge that damns us? This is not an academic question for me and my fellow Protestants. It is a burning issue for us (sorry, couldn’t resist ). Since the Magesterium cannot change, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” is still valid. If we are without any excuse because we could have read the Catechism and that would have automatically led to our conversion, then frankly the Church needs to be crystal clear on that point. Honestly, I like the statement above from the Council of Florence more than the Vatican II statements. It seems to lay out the issue plainly. If it is true, then whether it is offensive or not to non-Catholics shouldn’t be a concern. Phrases like “separated brethren” may make everyone feel better but if it is going to lead to my damnation because it makes me complacent, the Church isn’t doing me (or the other 500,000,000 other Protestant souls out there) any favors.

DZ102789,

No one said that God “wants” to send everyone to Hell. In fact, God states plainly that He wants none of his precious children to suffer that fate. But the Bible also teaches that if He hadn’t, in His grace and mercy, come down in the person of Jesus Christ, we would wind up there because we cannot meet His standards of holiness. With that said, we must, through earnest prayer and study, make sure that we are truly saved in the manner that God, through His grace, ordains. We can’t just choose how we are to be saved. If that means that one must join the Catholic Church, then so be it.

Marsha Adam,

That’s wonderful. Thanks for letting me know. I have Googled this and found the website for this outreach, Catholicscomehome.org. I’ll be sure to explore it.

 

[dz102789]

I would like to again mention that what I’m saying is that one must recognize the truth to reject it. I’m not trying to say that we should not zealously proclaim the Catholic faith. There are many people who genuinely believe that where they are is the truth and therefore may not recognize and therefore not be able to genuinely reject the Catholic faith. Obviously this makes salvation harder for them because they do not have the awesome help and grace of the sacraments. I am in no way trying to water down the importance of the Catholic Church and I fully believe that outside of the Church there is no salvation, but I am kind of leaning toward the “anonymous Christian” as taught by…GASP…Karl Rahner. Anyone who attains salvation attains it by the merits of Jesus Christ given to the Catholic Church.

 

[ccolley]

How about this: John Henry Newman was a very staunch Protestant, and even anti-Catholic is a certain sense, even though he was very profoundly sensitive to Catholic teaching, before his conversion.

His conversion was such an amazing story, he wrote his Apologia Pro Vita Sua which detailed, in his own words, how he went from his Protestant convictions, to doubt, to embracing the Roman Catholic faith. I have ever since believed, after reading that, if someone of John Henry Newman’s caliber could have been unable for a time to see the reasonableness of the Catholic Church, than I don’t know how we can hold anyone else to a higher standard. .

I like this!
CC

 

[Janet1983]

Your interpretation seems overly strong. It seems as if you are saying that the most well versed historian and Protestant theologian will not stand accountable before God for not being Catholic simply because he wasn’t convinced. That doesn’t sound as if it is what the Church documents are saying. It seems you would make Luther a saint for fighting against a Church he was convinced was wrong, instead of the wicked heretic he was. Maybe I’m reading too much into your statements?

Your interpretation makes it sound as if anybody who believes in Christ and was in a prolonged contact with the Catholic Church and then rejects the CC is a “wicked heretic” and therefore might be destined for hell.
You are aware that there are several former Catholics on this board, one of which I am? As far as I can see it many of these are wonderful Christians, strong in their faith and in their dedication to the Lord, as much as you are.
Was I right in my thoughts about your comment?

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I was reading other posts just seeing what I can learn about Catholicism and I found this in a post.

“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation” - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV

My first and wisest (and so far most accurately prophetic) pastor once said to me in his office, “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven.” He went on to mention his thoughts about Luther, the violence of the Reformation and so on. At the time he was Presbyterian, but his real thinking was Methodist, as that was how he’d been trained.

On another occasion, he blurted out in relation to the protestant position on the papacy, “It’s a heresy! That’s what worries me!” He was dying of cancer at the time.

Some time after he died, he appeared to me in a vision and said, “We’re not in heaven. We’re all in Purgatory. Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, so you don’t have to worry about that. In fact, it’s pretty good around here. But we’re not in heaven.”

Now I realise this is private revelation, and the vision could have been demonic, but I got to know him pretty well over about 9 years. I found if he said something (and amongst other things, he predicted I’d become Catholic), it nearly always happened or he was proven right.

So, based on my personal experience, what he said, and my understanding of God and some Papal announcements, I don’t think Protestants go to Hell. But I do think they don’t get into heaven either. Christ founded His church on Peter, as the Scriptures bluntly say. He didn’t found it on the Scriptures themselves, or Martin Luther, or Calvin and certainly not on Henry VIII. I doubt if He’s going to tolerate any pretenders to that role. He expects obedience.

Hence insofar as Christians persist in dividing the Church, I think they run the risk of being excluded from heaven. On the other hand, so many Protestants try so very hard to serve God according to their lights, so I can hardly see God condeming them to Hell. If the vision of my pastor was right, then I assume that even He is in the very upper reaches of Purgatory. And that’s where he’ll stay, unless the churches reunify.

That’s my understanding.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I would like to again mention that what I’m saying is that one must recognize the truth to reject it. I’m not trying to say that we should not zealously proclaim the Catholic faith. There are many people who genuinely believe that where they are is the truth and therefore may not recognize and therefore not be able to genuinely reject the Catholic faith. Obviously this makes salvation harder for them because they do not have the awesome help and grace of the sacraments. I am in no way trying to water down the importance of the Catholic Church and I fully believe that outside of the Church there is no salvation, but I am kind of leaning toward the “anonymous Christian” as taught by…GASP…Karl Rahner. Anyone who attains salvation attains it by the merits of Jesus Christ given to the Catholic Church.

The problem we get into is that a Catholic who accepts the faith then becomes a lapse Catholic is held to a higher standard that the person who takes refuge in a parochial ignorance. I can not accept that there is a new sola that might be expressed as “sola ignoramus indomitable”.

It would be a supreme aberration and defect of Justice if more gained heaven by the claim to ‘invincible ignorance’ than by claim to the much higher standard of being a life-long devout Catholic. It is in these secular and paganistic times frankly HARD to be a good Catholic. The social isolation and alienation is quite severe. I’d wager 80% of the people that we meet on the street or at work are highly secular if not hedonistic (or at least of the lukewarm Christian variety). Most we work and interact with in the USA would invariably describe themselves as “spiritual but not religious” (which really means “I do whatever the hell I want to do since a loving God would not send me to hell”).

It takes a real sacrifice to be a good Catholic and it takes almost no effort to put one’s head in the sand of “invincible ignorance” or to self delude oneself on the legion of partial-truth Protestant teachings. Frankly I have to admit – if I were a sly Protestant and suspected that the Catholic Church’s beliefs about “no salvation outside of the Church” even had a slim chance of being correct I’d RUN the other way anytime I saw a Catholic approaching who might spill the beans and remove my excuse of ignorance and become more culpable. But the Catechism clearly states that there is implanted in EVERY soul a natural morality to KNOW the truth and the desire to seek it out. Clearly then NO ONE is relived of their moral obligation to pursue the truth. And avoiding the truth by a robust embracing of sloth and ignorance (itself a capital sin) so to remain morally ignorant is not going to cut it either. God is not mocked by insincerity or feigned ignorance.

If Catholics really wanted to stir the pot and get people beating the door downs with inquiries into Catholicism we should start a new world campaign. Let’s put up billboards on all the interstate highways. Let’s hire aerial banners and national TV campaigns that say: “By reading this - ignorance is no longer an excuse. Unless you are joined to the Catholic Church and in at least some sort of communion (even estranged) by the time you die you WILL go to hell”. That would remove the comfort of ignorance and any false complacency in the new “salvation sola” of “invincible ignorance” that the Catholic Church created when we reformulated “a more inclusive” Catechism teaching for * Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.*

I note that it would just be evil & unjust if more souls gained salvation through ignorance than by an orthodox instruction in the faith. The more we know the more culpable we are for transgressions.

Note too that Jesus sent the apostles out to preach so that people might be saved. He did NOT send them forth so that people would be condemned by rejecting the truth. Clearly then logic would require that fewer escape hell by a plea of ignorance than those the thenumbers who actually embrace and practise the faith. If the former were true Jesus would not have needed to come; and by coming he would failed His mission at the getgo in spreading “the good new” and making everyone culpable. If this zany idea were valid then we would not have needed the apostolic commission to “go teach all nations the good news” in the first place. The truth is MANY go to hell for lack of knowledge and malicious or indifferent ignorance is no excuse.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest
Since you have )forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

James

 

[Hippocrit]

You make some very valid points. If the “passive reception of knowledge” interpretation is correct, if I am exonerated because no one ever told me about the Catholic Church, the very odd thing is I am putting my mortal soul in more danger by exploring the claims of the Catholic Church and considering conversion to it. I would be “safer” if I never sought, and never received, instruction in Church dogma. Then I could claim “invincible ignorance.”

But that’s a sea lawyer argument and I would be mocking God if I thought for a second that He would fall for it.

Protestants have a doctrine similar to “invincible ignorance” when it comes to general salvation from Christ. Most Protestants believe that those who never had a chance to accept Christ as Savior will not face the same fate as those who knew the claims of Christ and rejected them. I believe this doctrine needs to be viewed very, very narrowly. It might apply to a Chinese living in 500 B.C. who was good and kind and lived life as closely as possible to the Moral Law written on all men’s hearts. It likely would not apply to most men and women living before the time of Christ. It most certainly does not apply to anyone, save those who lack the ability to reason, living in the current age. As Paul says in Romans 1:20-21,

“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

So we stand condemned already and always have been and have no hope outside of Christ. If that were not the case, then the Good News would not be the Good News. It would be very bad news indeed because it would mean that coming of Christ, far from being a path to salvation, would mainly be the cause of condemnation for most of the world living since that time. If we can claim ignorance as a shield against judgment, then it would have been more merciful if Christ had not come. This is obviously not the case. Claims of ignorance are no shield, as Paul makes clear there are really no cases of ignorance.

James in his posts seems to be making the same case for Catholicism. If this the case, I repeat that it is the moral duty of the Catholic Church to make it as plain as Paul does in Romans. It would also be the moral duty of all Catholics, leaders and laity alike, to earnestly and unceasingly entreat Protestants to come back to the Catholic flock. Billboards like James suggests would be a start. The Pope’s 2007 statement about their being no true Protestant churches, as well as the issuance of Dominus Iesus in 2000, were also steps in that direction. These statements did offend Protestants and further efforts will continue to do so but, if it is the truth, it is no reason to stop.

But right now, there is no consistent message. Indeed, when conservative Anglicans expressed interest in returning to Catholicism, they were strongly discouraged(Note, in my browser that looks like plain underlining but it is actually a hypertext link) in converting by the Catholic leadership. An Anglican bishop was told by a Vatican official to stay in the Anglican faith. I have heard of many similar cases. If “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” is true, then those in the Church who shut the door on seekers I believe will face a terrible wrath from God.

When you are safe in the boat, and you see the sharks circling in the water while those still in the water cannot, you must beg them to get in the boat now. Don’t just worry about us. Help us get in the boat.

 

[Canardmom85]

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Salvation outside the Church
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

 

[dz102789]

The problem we get into is that a Catholic who accepts the faith then becomes a lapse Catholic is held to a higher standard that the person who takes refuge in a parochial ignorance. I can not accept that there is a new sola that might be expressed as “sola ignoramus indomitable”.

It would be a supreme aberration and defect of Justice if more gained heaven by the claim to ‘invincible ignorance’ than by claim to the much higher standard of being a life-long devout Catholic. It is in these secular and paganistic times frankly HARD to be a good Catholic. The social isolation and alienation is quite severe. I’d wager 80% of the people that we meet on the street or at work are highly secular if not hedonistic (or at least of the lukewarm Christian variety). Most we work and interact with in the USA would invariably describe themselves as “spiritual but not religious” (which really means “I do whatever the hell I want to do since a loving God would not send me to hell”).

It takes a real sacrifice to be a good Catholic and it takes almost no effort to put one’s head in the sand of “invincible ignorance” or to self delude oneself on the legion of partial-truth Protestant teachings. Frankly I have to admit – if I were a sly Protestant and suspected that the Catholic Church’s beliefs about “no salvation outside of the Church” even had a slim chance of being correct I’d RUN the other way anytime I saw a Catholic approaching who might spill the beans and remove my excuse of ignorance and become more culpable. But the Catechism clearly states that there is implanted in EVERY soul a natural morality to KNOW the truth and the desire to seek it out. Clearly then NO ONE is relived of their moral obligation to pursue the truth. And avoiding the truth by a robust embracing of sloth and ignorance (itself a capital sin) so to remain morally ignorant is not going to cut it either. God is not mocked by insincerity or feigned ignorance.

If Catholics really wanted to stir the pot and get people beating the door downs with inquiries into Catholicism we should start a new world campaign. Let’s put up billboards on all the interstate highways. Let’s hire aerial banners and national TV campaigns that say: “By reading this - ignorance is no longer an excuse. Unless you are joined to the Catholic Church and in at least some sort of communion (even estranged) by the time you die you WILL go to hell”. That would remove the comfort of ignorance and any false complacency in the new “salvation sola” of “invincible ignorance” that the Catholic Church created when we reformulated “a more inclusive” Catechism teaching for * Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.*

I note that it would just be evil & unjust if more souls gained salvation through ignorance than by an orthodox instruction in the faith. The more we know the more culpable we are for transgressions.

Note too that Jesus sent the apostles out to preach so that people might be saved. He did NOT send them forth so that people would be condemned by rejecting the truth. Clearly then logic would require that fewer escape hell by a plea of ignorance than those the thenumbers who actually embrace and practise the faith. If the former were true Jesus would not have needed to come; and by coming he would failed His mission at the getgo in spreading “the good new” and making everyone culpable. If this zany idea were valid then we would not have needed the apostolic commission to “go teach all nations the good news” in the first place. The truth is MANY go to hell for lack of knowledge and malicious or indifferent ignorance is no excuse.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest
Since you have )forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

James

James,
I am not saying that we should be okay with ignorance of the Catholic Faith or that we shouldn't do our best to bring all peoples into the fullness of the truth contained within the Church. In terms of it "not being fair" for those with invincible ignorance getting into heaven versus a life long devout catholic, I just have to ask, who are you to put a limit on God's mercy? Certainly God is infinitely just as well as infinitely merciful. Have you ever heard of the different degrees of reward in heaven? Certainly Hell is real and people do go there, but lets not go condemning people there as if we were the almighty.