Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[Marsha_Adams]

Louemma:

According to the BIble, it takes more than merely professing that Jesus Christ is Lord to be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:20-22 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:45-47 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:24-26 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Louemma]

Louemma:

According to the BIble, it takes more than merely professing that Jesus Christ is Lord to be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:20-22 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:45-47 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:24-26 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)

Thank You Marsha for this scripture because this is exactly what I’m saying.People who believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus, could these be the ones whom Jesus claims he does not know?Catholics believe Jesus is the Catholic Church but he is not.He is the son of God.The body of Christ is not the Catholic church but rather those who are born of the Spirit.So if folks are worshipping the creation(Catholic Church) rather then the creator(Jesus) then do they really know who Jesus is,or rather does he know them?
People are saved by way of the Lamb of God(FAITH IN JESUS) and professing the name of Jesus as their Lord and savior and the repentance of sins is all one needs to receive salvation.Works can not earn a ticket to heaven.So if people worship their belief and raise it up in place of the lamb of God then then there will be people who say they did all kinds of work in his name but he’s not going to know them unless they are born of his Spirit which is the Holy Spirit and NOT the Catholic church.
Which brings us back to believing that salvation is only for the Catholic belief and the false doctrine being taught that Jesus is the Catholic church.
Faith without works is dead but works without Faith is burned up!

 

[aspirant]

People who believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus

Are heeding all the scriptures saying that the Church is the Bride and even the Body of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus identifies himself with his Church. When Saul is persecuting the Church, Jesus asks Saul “Why do you persecute ME”?

Faith without works is dead but works without Faith is burned up!

Catholics agree. Supernatural faith in Jesus Christ, informed by charity, is necessary for salvation, and can only be received as a gift from God.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi everyone! I will like to comment on this and I hope people will understand more the nature and power we have in the Holy Eucharist. First of all because Catholics and Orthodox have received more, more is expected from them. Since Protestants have received less, less is expected from them. God will judge us more than our Protestant brethren because we have more to be responsible with. You cannot hold someone responsible for what they don’t have. From this perspective I will like to add that Catholics and Orthodox will spend probably more time in Purgatory for their sins than our Protestant brethren. Since our Protestant brethren hardly pray for the departed their stay in Purgatory could last longer since they are not receiving prayers from their loved ones still living on earth. Our stay in Purgatory can be shortlived because we have the power of the Eucharist and many other sacramentals such as the Divine Mercy devotion. These prayers can be of great help and benefit to the Holy Souls in purgatory as God will grant them His Grace and Mercy. You can help the Holy Souls by offering the Mass for them and praying for them in your daily prayers and devotions. God depends on your prayers to grant them relief. Did you know you can shorten your Purgatory while on earth praying and living the Divine Mercy messages. Another way to shorten your own Purgatory is to pray for others especially sinners that you know. I teach in my own parish this ’ adopt a sinner for 10 weeks ". By praying for someone you know who is of need of God’s Grace and Mercy we can bring them closer to God. And the more we help the more God will send His Grace and Mercy and He will remember your prayers and sacrifices and grant even more Grace for you. God loves everyone and desires salvation to all. One way God helps those outside the Catholic and Orthodox church is through the Holy Eucharist. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for Catholics and the Divine Liturgy for the Eastern Church. Everytime we receive Holy Communion God grants graces to everyone in the planet be they christian or not. He gives a greater portion to the receiver and a small portion to each member of the human race be they living or in Purgatory. It is like this. Please let me use bank numbers to describe it. When I receive Holy Communion ( I must though be in a state of grace ) God grants me $50,000 worth of graces. To each member of the planet He grants $50 worth of graces and for many He banks for them. Now notice this, everytime you pray your daily prayers God will grant you $50 and if you have fasted an additional $50. It will take 3 years of prayers for a Protestant to acquire the same amount of Grace that a Catholic or Orthodox can receive in just 1 Eucharist. Now do you understand the immense power in the Eucharist. Not only do you receive Grace but so does everybody else. You want to help God to save then participate more in the Eucharist. The Great Treasure is at your disposal. All you have to do is attend and receive Our Lord. And you can do a great service to all especially to your Protestant Brethren by attending to your Holy Eucharist. For each person receiving Communion God will grant an additional $50. So let us say 500 people receive Communion on this day. That will mean $25,000 worth of graces have been given to each person on the planet. Why the Eucharist is more is simply this. All our prayers is our sacrifice before God. Not the Mass for that is God’s Sacrifice for man. The story of the feeding of the 5000 can illustrate this better. Small amount of bread and fish was given to Our Lord. After He fed the 5000 there were 12 basketfuls left. After you receive the Eucharist God supplies Graces for everyone in the planet which is represented in the 12 basketfuls after the feeding of the 5000. What God does with these Graces I leave that for Him to do. What I can do is to help Him to dispense it and I can do that more in the Holy Eucharist and devotions like the Rosary and especially the chaplet of the Divine Mercy. Only God knows your destination. However if a person is in a state of hell now we can help by praying for them. You know the Holy Mother was asked by the Fatima children why are these people in hell and the Holy Mother responded saying that no one makes prayer and reparation for them. God does not desire the death of any sinner. Let us pray more for each other so that God can build up those Graces especially for those who are most need of it. I hope I have brought comments that will help you better understand what happens at Communion. Please comment if you need to. St.Gertrude the Great was revealed by Our Lord that everyone in the planet receives Graces when a person receives Him in Holy Communion. God Bless!

 

[aspirant]

First of all because Catholics and Orthodox have received more, more is expected from them. Since Protestants have received less, less is expected from them. God will judge us more than our Protestant brethren because we have more to be responsible with. You cannot hold someone responsible for what they don’t have.

I agree.

Since our Protestant brethren hardly pray for the departed their stay in Purgatory could last longer since they are not receiving prayers from their loved ones still living on earth.

I pray for my Protestant ancestors, and I hope other Catholic and Orthodox Christians will also pray for the souls of the Protestant departed.

Everytime we receive Holy Communion God grants graces to everyone in the planet be they christian or not.

I would encourage Catholic and Orthodox Christians to pray especially for those people who are not able to receive.

In the future, you can make your posts easier to read by adding some paragraph breaks. People will appreciate it.

 

[DavidKays]

Yes I too wish more will pray for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. I am Greek Orthodox and in my church we pray alot for the departed especially at every Communion. But I find that many Catholics do not attend their own Church and many do not pray for their departed. It is sad because they can do alot for their own and help their own family. Many a time I have seen a Catholic buried in a funeral home instead of the Church because the closest member of the deceased does not attend Church and decides against a funeral mass. I think it is better to put in your will your desire for a church funeral mass because these days many of their children do not care. I am sorry for not paragraphing. I am new to a computer and really I do not know how to correct it. I am very slow in understanding the mechanics of using a computer and even this website. Please someday I will get it right. God Bless!

 

[Major_Tom]

Some of you just don’t want to face the real possibility that hundreds of millions of non-Catholic “Christians” might not escape hell via “invincible ignorance” and that a “Close enough faith is good enough for government work and therefor for God too”.

James

To attempt to recap your position (as well as positions I’ve seen throughout these boards): the Catholic Church is not the ONLY means to salvation, but is head and shoulders above the rest. True…?

I’m curious. If you had vitally important news to share with your children, would you share the news equally among them? You wouldn’t hold this news back from one of them, would you?

Applying this to your position on the Catholic Church: why would God share the message of Jesus and the Catholic church with only some of his children? I know the arguments about “well, that’s why we need to evangelize”, as well as “well, God has shared his grace with everyone in some form”, but that’s not what I’m asking. If the Catholic church is CLEARLY head and shoulders above every other faith (as you seem to feel it is), why have so many not even heard that call? Keep in mind this isn’t just a few people here or there… you could start with a billion people in China, only a fraction of which have had any appreciable exposure to Catholicism.

In short, why did God do this?

 

[CentralFLJames]

To attempt to recap your position (as well as positions I’ve seen throughout these boards): the Catholic Church is not the ONLY means to salvation, but is head and shoulders above the rest. True…?

Thanks for your questions Major Tom.
No you don’t the right idea of what we are saying about Catholic belief. The Catholic Church is the ONLY means one may be saved - PERIOD. That said there are 2 kinds of members in the Catholic Church - formal members and informal members. Of these two classes there are those who are in a state of grace and those who are not in a state of grace. Those who are baptised into Christ via the trinitarian are automatic members of the Catholic Church. Those who are baptised in other faith communities and remain outside of the formal Catholic Church may be thought of as 'informal" members of the Catholic Church. Most of these for ignorance do not know that they are Catholic. To commit a grave sin (to disgrace oneself) requires knowledge of the severity of a sin and a conscious decision to commit the sin out of malice or indifference. To willfully remain outside the Catholic Church as informal members with the knowledge to know this is grave matter and to do it willfully and maliciously is in the arena of grave sin. None these may benefit by the sacramental graces available to Catholics in a state of grace at large (both informal or informal Catholics).

**ONLY JESUS saves anyone. **

BUT, Jesus joins Himself intimately and inseparably to His Church and makes it the principal vehicle/channel by which ALL sanctifying grace is distributed to the world to those who are spiritually disposed to receive it.

To be disposed to receive grace one must be a formal Catholic or an informal Catholic; neither can be in a state of grave/serious/mortal sin. Being in mortal sin is like having a cracked water vessel that can not contain water without leaking out (grace being the water in the analogy). Think of the Catholic Church as a river of grace with Jesus at the source that flows first through the formal church (viz its members) each time we offer the sacrifice of the mass or a benediction service or prayers etc. The Catholic members who are endowed with grace go out in the normal course of their lives into the secular world and interact with non-Christians and informal members of the Catholic Church (any person baptised according to the Trinitarian formula but not formal members). The analogy here is “the salt of the world”. Grace in this interactive and exemplar way is shared and conveyed to others through the universal priesthood of the laity itself which is a supernatural work (and through other supernatural means but always through the church viz Christ at its head). In this way INFORMAL members of the Catholic Church not in grave sin may receive and benefit from sacramental grace flowed from the formal Catholic offerings. God binds the non-formal Catholics lower forms of worship (simple prayer and song ,fasting, alms etc. - dulia forms of worship) to The Catholic Latria form of worship to release grace to all “The Church” (formal and informal Catholics).

That said, pious Catholics who are disposed to receive grace will receive a superabundance of grace since they receive it directly viz Eucharist and the other sacraments (repentance, anointing of the sick etc.). Actually we gain grace according to our readiness to receive it in our individual spiritual growth/sanctification and interior disposition) The grace available to informal Catholics is not anywhere near as great (in general) since they have a very deficient linkage to the Church as a consequence of being in separation from us. That said, God is not limited to the sacraments but He has an economy of Grace that is all tied to the Catholic Church.

Basically every Protestant and Trinitarian Christian is an informal member of the CATHOLIC church. God joins them all to us at their baptism even though most do not know it. This means that all Christians are CATHOLIC but not ALL CATHOLICS are saved since many do not practice their faith or avail themselves of the full sacramental graces necessary to fend off temptation and occasions of grave sin that must ALL be repented of and forgiven.

At death those who are judged worthy of heaven by God are supernaturally perfected into the One Catholic Faith (this usually means purgatory for most of us). In heaven there is not a shred of error in faith or in truth so any defects in faith are remedied by God Himself. This is why we say there are ONLY Catholics in heaven - one universal and true faith. But in heaven all the mysteries and deeper insights of the one faith that we have not yet discerned are revealed to those souls so blessed into beatitude with God.

I am sorry, very sorry for the length of this - but there is so much background that must be conveyed to get us on a common understanding.

I will continue to answer the rest of your questions on the next page.

James

 

[sdtouchton]

Hell is the place of disembodied spirits. The beast, false prophets, and the devil shall be cast into hell. The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God in hell. They consciously suffer shame and contempt and the assaults of an accusing conscience. Jesus described hell as an unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12), a place of eternal fire, (Matthew 25:41) eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46), and as a place of torment, fire, and agony (Luke 16:23-24). Jesus taught specifically about hell many times in His ministry (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:6; 16:23).

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:5

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. James 3:6

PSA 9:17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

PRO 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps lead straight to the grave.

2TH 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

REV 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

REV 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Revelation 20:10

If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 19:20

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Proverbs 23:13

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Matthew 7:13

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. Matthew 13:41
jesus4me.webs.com/apps/blog/show/1164909-the-eternal-fire-

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’m curious. If you had vitally important news to share with your children, would you share the news equally among them? You wouldn’t hold this news back from one of them, would you?

Yes – we would give all information necessary for salvation etc. to the best ability of the circumstances holding all other things equal (locality, communications, ability to hear and discern what is said etc.).

Applying this to your position on the Catholic Church: why would God share the message of Jesus and the Catholic church with only some of his children?

Strange question. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Please – this is a sophomoric line of reasoning and a leading question with an assumed outcome intended to entrap. It is not sincere nor objective in nature.

Let’s reset. Your question is odd. Are you claiming that the Catholic Church is withholding vital information entrusted to it from some peoples???

God did not broadcast His message to the entire world through one large supernatural megaphone to all people at one instant. Is this what you mean? No, God who joined himself to mankind elected to engage humanity through human estate. He came as Jesus to choose 12 men to assist him to spread the divine word through human means through all the world. This is consistent with how humans develop relationships – we earn trust and develop relationships and learn and communicate from and to each other. The Catholic Church has been in a evangelization process for 2,000 years doing most everything it can to spread the news to all the world. During these centuries there have been wars, conflicts, persecutions, natural calamities etc. that have slowed or limited the effectiveness in getting the word out to all. Our information is all over the Internet, in books, in media, and in the hearts of 1.2 billion Catholics world wide who are continuing to spread the word. Have we missed you?

I know the arguments about “well, that’s why we need to evangelize”, as well as “well, God has shared his grace with everyone in some form”, but that’s not what I’m asking. If the Catholic church is CLEARLY head and shoulders above every other faith (as you seem to feel it is), why have so many not even heard that call? Keep in mind this isn’t just a few people here or there… you could start with a billion people in China, only a fraction of which have had any appreciable exposure to Catholicism.

In short, why did God do this?

Have you considered that we are in a huge supernatural war right now and have been from the beginning of man? We are working in God’s time and in accord with Divine Providence. We have hurdles to overcome – one of the biggest one is the loss of Christian credibility due to the legion of “alternative faith” offerings that the hydra of Protestantism has unleashed on the world. And yes, all this denominations are manifest evil and are NOT a fruit of the Holy Spirit. There is an active supernatural attempt to hijack Christianity that has been ongoing since apostolic times. Satan knows his time is nearly up and is doing all he can to destroy as man souls as he can. Before he worked principally through ordinary corruption and ignorance but now he is trying to put the face of confusion and doubt on Christianity and to efface God’s image from the world (innocent children viz abortion).

In China we are actually starting to do pretty well now. The government is doing all it can to block Catholic missionaries from entering the country and not granting visas unless we agree to work through a fake State Catholic Church that has China government appointed bishops (who are not really even Catholic). These state appointed “Fake bishops” are starting to see the truth and some are converting to Catholic faith and we have many underground clergy converting as fast as they can. Sadly, the Protestants have also gotten involved and are causing confusion and spreading their errors as fast as they can too. But in general I think there is some collaboration going on to help get them all baptized. The Chinese have a tenacity to hold true to what they believe in and we will get a lot of good and devout Chinese converts. Esp from the women who are being marginalized and being persecuted for having children (forced sterilization). China government can no longer stop Christianity from eventually spreading through the entire region but we can expect the regular pattern of heavy persecution to create martyrs.

I really don’t think you understand how much fear and hatred world governments have of the Catholic Church. On one hand they want our free charity and foreign aid but on the other they don’t want a lower class to emerge into middle class and start talking about making their governments accountable to Christian morality or interfere with their political philosophies and corrupt governance.

James

 

[Janet1983]

By the way, whenever I had heard about the historical conflict between Catholics and Protestants at school or on TV for example, the Catholics were always presented as the bad guys and the Protestants as the good guys. The official historigraphy is in fact very biased here in Germany when it comes to Catholicism. For example I had learned about the persecution of the Huguenots in France at school, but there was never any word mentioned about the persecution of Catholics in England at the same time. When I found out the truth, I was quite angry, because I realized that they had told me only the half of the story at school.

Chrissi

Huh? Not trying to somehow tell you that you’re wrong but I never had that happen… Well we had the Huguenots in history class (but mainly because their persecution had an impact on the German society at large) and we talked extensively about the persecution (in historical order and on both sides) in England in English classes.
On the other hand I was already in Catholic religious education classes in school (like almost everybody else).
Well and I was also raised in a Catholic dominated area… might have been a reason too.

Great to see someone from good old Germany on this board…

In Him,
Janet

 

[DavidKays]

Hi! I notice in these comments about certain discussions about hell and I feel I need to make some comments to clarify some misunderstandings on the teaching of hell. First of all God does not wish to send anyone to hell. Hell is more defined as a state of being rather than a place but because you are in a state of hell after you have died than God assigns you and all the rest to a place where you can vent out your hatred for all eternity. He certainly cannot place you in heaven because you will vent out your hatred there. So sadly He assigns you to a place where you can do this. God does not wish this on anyone. Only He knows what He is suffering for these lost souls. God has much pain for His lost children and will have this pain forever since He cannot bring them to heaven alongside His Chosen. We know that the devil and the rest of the evil spirits are in a state of hell that can never be reversed or change. The reason they cannot change is simple. First is the nature of their angelic being. Angels are spirits and have no body like ours. In the beginning God granted to each Angel incredible knowledge of Himself. Each angel has more knowledge of God than all the Saints put together. In this knowledge the Angels know the difference between Good and Evil. They know about love and so on. They know that their condition will change once they sin and that this condition cannot be reversed. Yet some decided to put that to the test and deliberately sinned anyway. There was no excuse for their sin and they were immediately punished. What else can God do. The angels were warned in this foreknowledge and yet they sinned anyway. Punished as they were, God for His Good Intentions still uses them. It is interesting that God doesn’t waste anything in His creation. He gives permission for them to tempt us. Temptation is good and not evil. God uses the evil spirits when you think about it and accomplishes good for Saints are made. Sadly many people listen too much to their deceit and lies and fall into grevious sin. We see that 2000 years ago when many of the so called religeous people of the day had Our Lord crucified. St.John Chrysostom my mentor and a beautiful Church Father wrote that Our Lord died so as to reveal the true nature of evil. Our Lord died to expose it. He wrote " Why did the devil attacked Jesus, knowing that Jesus was without sin? …by attacking and betraying a person so manifestly good and holy as Christ, the devil exposed himself: the devil revealed himself as evil. This may sound strange: surely we know evil for what it is, without such a terrible exposure. On the contrary, the problem of evil is that it is usually disguised as goodness.Think of Judas. Throughout the early ministry of Jesus, Judas was a most loyal and passionate disciple. And he willingly went out with the others to proclaim the Gospel and heal the sick. Yet all the while, evil thoughts were seething in his heart:the lust for power and wealth burned within him. So when the opportunity arose to destroy Jesus, he seized it. Judas shows us how evil operates in the world;that is why God allowed evil to be exposed-by allowing Jesus to die on the cross…". I always teach when I can and one phrase I use is this. The only power the devil has is the power you give him. So God is in control. OK. If the devil and the evil spirits were given 100% freedom we be all dead in seconds. So they have to obey God. They do not like to but they do. God gives them only so much freedom that is temptation. There are instances when God permits possession yet in these cases the Church Fathers are in complete agreement when they write that these people should be given alot of compassion. I am not referring to those who willfully carry out what the devil puts in their minds. I am thinking of those who like in the Gospels are possessed to the point when they do not know themselves and problably not at fault of their actions. Now when a person commits grevious sins this may place them in a state of hell. Unlike the devil these people can have the opportunity to repent. You can repent as long as you are in your body. The will which is part of your immortal soul can help you repent as long you are in your body. However when you die and the soul seperates from the body, the will is fixed because the will is part of your soul. And at the time of your death if you are in grevious sin and in a state of hell the will cannot change when it has left the body and therefore your condtion is irreversable and just like the devil you enter a state that cannot change. In some sense your soul is like the angelic spirit not identical but similar in design because of the impossibility of change once you leave your body. We can repent because we are in a body. Afterwards when the soul seperates there can be no more repentance from mortal sin. However venial sins after death and repented mortal sins that you repented of before you died can still have some effect on your condition and this can be helped in Purgatory. Hell is more a condition, a state of being and is the result of persistent grevious sins. Yet God is so merciful that the person in that state has the possibility to repent even to the end of their life. I hope this makes you understand in a small way certain teachings you mayby discussing here. God Bless!

 

[paul_c]

Thanks for your questions Major Tom.
No you don’t the right idea of what we are saying about Catholic belief. The Catholic Church is the ONLY means one may be saved - PERIOD. That said there are 2 kinds of members in the Catholic Church - formal members and informal members. Of these two classes there are those who are in a state of grace and those who are not in a state of grace. Those who are baptised into Christ via the trinitarian are automatic members of the Catholic Church. Those who are baptised in other faith communities and remain outside of the formal Catholic Church may be thought of as 'informal" members of the Catholic Church. Most of these for ignorance do not know that they are Catholic. To commit a grave sin (to disgrace oneself) requires knowledge of the severity of a sin and a conscious decision to commit the sin out of malice or indifference. To willfully remain outside the Catholic Church as informal members with the knowledge to know this is grave matter and to do it willfully and maliciously is in the arena of grave sin. None these may benefit by the sacramental graces available to Catholics in a state of grace at large (both informal or informal Catholics).

**ONLY JESUS saves anyone. **

BUT, Jesus joins Himself intimately and inseparably to His Church and makes it the principal vehicle/channel by which ALL sanctifying grace is distributed to the world to those who are spiritually disposed to receive it.

To be disposed to receive grace one must be a formal Catholic or an informal Catholic; neither can be in a state of grave/serious/mortal sin. Being in mortal sin is like having a cracked water vessel that can not contain water without leaking out (grace being the water in the analogy). Think of the Catholic Church as a river of grace with Jesus at the source that flows first through the formal church (viz its members) each time we offer the sacrifice of the mass or a benediction service or prayers etc. The Catholic members who are endowed with grace go out in the normal course of their lives into the secular world and interact with non-Christians and informal members of the Catholic Church (any person baptised according to the Trinitarian formula but not formal members). The analogy here is “the salt of the world”. Grace in this interactive and exemplar way is shared and conveyed to others through the universal priesthood of the laity itself which is a supernatural work (and through other supernatural means but always through the church viz Christ at its head). In this way INFORMAL members of the Catholic Church not in grave sin may receive and benefit from sacramental grace flowed from the formal Catholic offerings. God binds the non-formal Catholics lower forms of worship (simple prayer and song ,fasting, alms etc. - dulia forms of worship) to The Catholic Latria form of worship to release grace to all “The Church” (formal and informal Catholics).

That said, pious Catholics who are disposed to receive grace will receive a superabundance of grace since they receive it directly viz Eucharist and the other sacraments (repentance, anointing of the sick etc.). Actually we gain grace according to our readiness to receive it in our individual spiritual growth/sanctification and interior disposition) The grace available to informal Catholics is not anywhere near as great (in general) since they have a very deficient linkage to the Church as a consequence of being in separation from us. That said, God is not limited to the sacraments but He has an economy of Grace that is all tied to the Catholic Church.

Basically every Protestant and Trinitarian Christian is an informal member of the CATHOLIC church. God joins them all to us at their baptism even though most do not know it. This means that all Christians are CATHOLIC but not ALL CATHOLICS are saved since many do not practice their faith or avail themselves of the full sacramental graces necessary to fend off temptation and occasions of grave sin that must ALL be repented of and forgiven.

At death those who are judged worthy of heaven by God are supernaturally perfected into the One Catholic Faith (this usually means purgatory for most of us). In heaven there is not a shred of error in faith or in truth so any defects in faith are remedied by God Himself. This is why we say there are ONLY Catholics in heaven - one universal and true faith. But in heaven all the mysteries and deeper insights of the one faith that we have not yet discerned are revealed to those souls so blessed into beatitude with God.

I am sorry, very sorry for the length of this - but there is so much background that must be conveyed to get us on a common understanding.

I will continue to answer the rest of your questions on the next page.

James

This was very, very well said.

 

[Major_Tom]

Strange question. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Please – this is a sophomoric line of reasoning …It is not sincere nor objective in nature.

Your question is odd.

James

Whoa, whoa, hold on a sec, pal. You absolutely read the poster ‘dz’ the riot act in post #52 for what you thought was a ‘personl attack’ and was quite irritated that she ‘knew your mind’. Now after one post, you judge me as not ‘sincere’? And asking ‘sophomoric and odd’ questions? Do you know my mind, sir? There was no sarcasm or ‘tone’ in my question. I hate double standards, and you just violated your own. According to your own standards, you should apologize.

Thank you for the lengthy response. I will review and comment back on the guts of your argument later…

 

[aspirant]

To attempt to recap your position (as well as positions I’ve seen throughout these boards): the Catholic Church is not the ONLY means to salvation, but is head and shoulders above the rest. True…?

I wouldn’t agree with this. The Catholic Church is the only means to salvation. That does not mean, however, that only Catholics can be saved. If anyone is saved, regardless what his religious beliefs are or are not, he is saved by the grace of Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church.

Regarding the reason God uses human agents to spread the Gospel, it is an intrinsic dimension of the Gospel that God wants us all to participate in his work.

 

[aspirant]

God does not wish to send anyone to hell… God does not wish this on anyone.

We Catholics agree completely.

 

[Major_Tom]

Those who are baptised in other faith communities and remain outside of the formal Catholic Church may be thought of as 'informal" members of the Catholic Church.

You don’t specifically state it, so I’ll ask: what of those who have not been exposed to the church and have not been baptized? Are they ‘informal’ members or is there another state for them? This is an important point for me…

 

[aspirant]

what of those who have not been exposed to the church and have not been baptized?

“Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh [the Jewish people]. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the [Muslims], who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church)

 

[Janet1983]

The Catholic Church is the ONLY means one may be saved - PERIOD. That said there are 2 kinds of members in the Catholic Church - formal members and informal members. Of these two classes there are those who are in a state of grace and those who are not in a state of grace. Those who are baptised into Christ via the trinitarian are automatic members of the Catholic Church. Those who are baptised in other faith communities and remain outside of the formal Catholic Church may be thought of as 'informal" members of the Catholic Church. Most of these for ignorance do not know that they are Catholic. To commit a grave sin (to disgrace oneself) requires knowledge of the severity of a sin and a conscious decision to commit the sin out of malice or indifference. To willfully remain outside the Catholic Church as informal members with the knowledge to know this is grave matter and to do it willfully and maliciously is in the arena of grave sin. None these may benefit by the sacramental graces available to Catholics in a state of grace at large (both informal or informal Catholics).

So what about people who left the Catholic church after being a full member of her?
Are they formal (even though they defected) or informal (because they were baptized trinitarian or even re-baptized outside of the CC)?
Just out of personal interest in how you see that one…

Grace, mercy and peace will be with you, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

In Him,
Janet

 

[CentralFLJames]

You don’t specifically state it, so I’ll ask: what of those who have not been exposed to the church and have not been baptized? Are they ‘informal’ members or is there another state for them? This is an important point for me…

There are some known only to God who gain a supernatural “baptism by desire” through interior desire to be joined to God’s Church. This is for those who are in cultures where the Catholic Church is not in material evidence (or is inaccessable to them due to culture, family pressure etc.) but nonetheless the soul hears Gods call to rise up against the gravity of sin to cooperate with God’s grace and become transformed in Spirit. God is present to all and so is His call to grace. We can never know how many souls are repressed by their cultures and governments, poverty of condition, lack of education and so on who nonetheless “hear” God’s call an become cognizant to His overarching goodness and are able to access His grace by “desire” to be more than mere natural man and accept the supernatural gifts of faith.

We can only hope that there are many such souls.

The other form of baptism is “baptism by blood”. These are those who gain salvation by being victim souls for Christ. These are martyers who gave all they had for God and for His ways. For example the young boys who were murdered by Kind Herd (who we call "the Holy Innocents) in his hopes to kill the prophesied Christ Child are generally believed to have gained by a principal of justice a “baptism by blood” since these died in place of Christ and for Christ even without conscious assent (being under age of consent). A person who is friendly and sympathetic to Christians and their virtues and beliefs and dies defending them against anti-Christian persecutors might possibly be a person who gains a "baptism by blood. Again, only God knows the interior motives and the intentions of the soul to make the determination if a soul is motivated toward the image of Christ.

James