Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[CentralFLJames]

It defiantly happened, but Tertullian makes an excellent argument against that practice. I agree with Tertullian.

But of course you would since he stands alone against EXISTING PRACTISE that existed in apostolic times. Fortunately God’s Church is not governed by individual opinions nor majority rule but by actual practices that were handed down to us and later proven to be theologically sound. The Protestant OSAS crowd are yet to get their infantile theology to explain how a baby is “saved” for all eternity out of womb (if it should be still born or die soon thereafter) but become unsaved for all eternity at some unspecific moment when the child attains the age of reason. What happened to “once saved always saved”?

I hope “etc.” includes the Marion doctrines; I would love to hear how the apostles handed them down.

These are contained in the deposit of faith (Scripture and Tradition). The Apostles handed down to us the fact that Jesus promised to His Church that the Holy Spirit would reveal things too wonderful to yet know in their times. It is contained in scripture but it was not discerned fully until the church was well established and was deep into contemplating the mysteries that Christ gave us. The Holy Spirit illumined the Church through gifted men to see the topology and prefigurement that St. Paul alluded to in making the connection to Christ as “the New Adam”. It was child’s play to see that a child needed a mother () and that God needed a New Eve to bring forth a new race of elevated humanity from new and uncorrupted spiritual parents. The scriptural evidence is profound if one does the study holistically within an apostolic framework.

I am still waiting for you to cite an Early Church Father that even remotely appears to teach the Protestant beliefs or held that the Church was corrupted.

:Cricketsounds:

Better spin off a new OP since this is way afield now of the original OP…

James

 

[Janet1983]

In regards to #4, I will address # 's 1, 2, and 3 later, it is an intersting phenomenon of religious history that the heresy of Luther, taking its rise in a proud rebellion against the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, issued in a pessimistic theology which, exaggerating the effects of original sin, presented human nature as intrinsically corrupt. The human will, bereft of freedom, was incapable of pursuing the good, the human reason was powerless to know the truth.

My questions to you are you a representative of this fundamental Protestant teaching?

Does your denomination subscribe to this basic Protestant teaching or has your denomination changed it’s position from Luther’s?

Since you will not disclose which Protestant denomination you attend, could you give us at least a brief outline of how your Protestant denomination, of which you are a representative, differs from other Protestant denominations of which you are a not a representative? Surely, you must admit, there are theological differences between the different Protestant demonimations.

Well I attend the denomination I do attend for the reason that I think that they are close to Scripture in their teachings. We are naturally bereft through sin. Through faith in Jesus Christ we are made able to please God in the first place…

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:2[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:6-8[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 11:6[/BIBLEDRB]

As a Christian we are capable of serving God with out spirit, even though our flesh is still captive to sin…

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 7:24[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]

As a Christian we are being changed by God and we are no longer only in the flesh. As all of human creation we are sinners (Romans 3:23) and to say the we do not sin would be calling God a liar (1 John 1:10). But we were called to repent (Luke 13:5; Acts 17:30) and believe (John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Romans 10:9) and we did. We are calling unto His name (Romans 10:13) and are being made children of God (John 1:12).
That is why we can please Him, because we are new creatures… We are His.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

We are dead to ourselves and alive in Christ. That is the difference between an unrepentant sinner and a Christian. He saved us and He is changes us from within. Even though we were sinners and unable to please Him, He saved us through His death and resurrection.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 5:8-9[/BIBLEDRB]

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[Janet1983]

God does not want a mindless robotic slave.

Well I guess it is the definition of a slave then. As a slave of Jesus Christ I am dead to myself and dead to sin (Romans 6:1-11).

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 12:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]

As a slave I am not mindless, but I am conscious of the will of my Master and I strive to be obedient to Him at all times. Sometimes I fail and sometimes I succeed, but the love for my Master drives me to get back up and try again. If we want to obey the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:37-38) we cannot but strive to obey Him in all things.
As is found in John:

[BIBLEDRB]John 14:15[/BIBLEDRB]

That is why we all get baptised and cling to our faith - no one can be Catholic without faith. But faith is not all of it - we also must cooperate.
It’s impossible to love Jesus without also loving His Bride/Body. The two are inseparable.

I am still not sure where you find all the detailed information on the fate of one leaving the CC (like me).
All I found (through the analytical index of my Catechism) was this:

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

And this as further references:

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[CentralFLJames]

I am still not sure where you find all the detailed information on the fate of one leaving the CC (like me).
All I found (through the analytical index of my Catechism) was this:

I thought it was pretty clear in the text you found: "certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable.

The Church does not judge - that is God’s job. But it makes it explicit that schismatic-heretics (which seems to be your general category) is a damnable offense to God.

And of course it also says what we have been saying all along about Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus which can be found in Catechisms paragraphs 846, 848, 851.
Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity

**851 **Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, “for the love of Christ urges us on.” 343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”; 344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

​

*

In brief, the Church’s understanding of this doctrine is that all who are saved receive the grace of salvation in and through Christ; this grace always contains a reference to Christ’s mystical body, the Church, and brings the justified person into a mysterious contact with that Church. Hence also, those who know God’s plan to save men as members of his mystical body, are obliged to be united to this Church, and commit a grave fault by rejecting it. But those who are, without their fault, unaware of this plan of God, can be saved without belonging visibly to the Church, and only united to it through the mysterious bond of grace and charity working in their soul, which unites them spiritually with all who have grace, unites them with the Church. In this sense they are saved in and through the Church; without belonging to it in this sense (Extra Ecclesiam) they would not be saved.

You might enjoy reading some of the historical teachings of Extra Ecclesiam: extraecclesiamnullasalus.pathsoflove.com/

But the bottom line is that the Church warns that your salvation is in grave danger of damnation by being outside the visible church and out of communion with her.

James

 

[Tomster]

I’d just like for ANY protestant to stand up and explain the logic behind the assumption that totally depraved men who are so defective by effect of sin can suddenly overcome their defects to give us infallable and new teachings that “reform” the Church perfectly? The logic is so repulsive to reason that I can’t believe anyone with a stable mind could accept the most basic concepts of Protestantism. How does one escape the irrationality? How can anyone with a logical mind hold this absurd idea and rationally be a Protestant?

Protestants undermine the entire rational basis for Christianity and push intelligent and rational people away from Christianity by the blatant affront to reason. This is sad because the common misperception in the secular world is that Catholics and Protestants are all just variations on the same “philosophy” of Christ. So, a rational person investigating the faith will quickly see the blatant irrationality of Protestantism; then, by association the Catholic faith need not be examined since they assume all the “denominations” come from the same spoiled apples in the same bushel of corrupted ideas. The “philosophy” is categorically discarded after only a cursory review of just a few bad samples.

Protestantism is a bane to Christian credibility world wide.

James

 

[Tomster]

Well I attend the denomination I do attend for the reason that I think that they are close to Scripture in their teachings. We are naturally bereft through sin. Through faith in Jesus Christ we are made able to please God in the first place…

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:2[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:6-8[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 11:6[/BIBLEDRB]

As a Christian we are capable of serving God with out spirit, even though our flesh is still captive to sin…

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 7:24[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]

As a Christian we are being changed by God and we are no longer only in the flesh. As all of human creation we are sinners (Romans 3:23) and to say the we do not sin would be calling God a liar (1 John 1:10). But we were called to repent (Luke 13:5; Acts 17:30) and believe (John 3:16; Romans 5:8; Romans 10:9) and we did. We are calling unto His name (Romans 10:13) and are being made children of God (John 1:12).
That is why we can please Him, because we are new creatures… We are His.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

We are dead to ourselves and alive in Christ. That is the difference between an unrepentant sinner and a Christian. He saved us and He is changes us from within. Even though we were sinners and unable to please Him, He saved us through His death and resurrection.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 5:8-9[/BIBLEDRB]

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

You really have not answered any of the questions I posed.

As a self appointed representative of Protestantism I was hoping that you would be able to field all of my questions in a much more specific manner. Obviously you cannot. How can we take any of your responses seriously if you cannot answer even the basic questions I have asked?

 

[Janet1983]

You really have not answered any of the questions I posed.

Would you care to try it again?

I am trying to figure out what you want to know…

 

[Tomster]

In regards to #4, I will address # 's 1, 2, and 3 later, it is an intersting phenomenon of religious history that the heresy of Luther, taking its rise in a proud rebellion against the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, issued in a pessimistic theology which, exaggerating the effects of original sin, presented human nature as intrinsically corrupt. The human will, bereft of freedom, was incapable of pursuing the good, the human reason was powerless to know the truth.

My questions to you are you a representative of this fundamental Protestant teaching?

Does your denomination subscribe to this basic Protestant teaching or has your denomination changed it’s position from Luther’s?

Since you will not disclose which Protestant denomination you attend, could you give us at least a brief outline of how your Protestant denomination, of which you are a representative, differs from other Protestant denominations of which you are a not a representative? Surely, you must admit, there are theological differences between the different Protestant demonimations.

Shall we try it again?

 

[Tomster]

You keep trying to put me in a box by telling me what I must believe because I am Protestant. You are building straw men so you can knock them down. I have not told you anything about what I believe. I really am not too interested in the Reformation, which was not a reformation at all, but rather an attempted reformation. And Protestants did not leave the Catholic Church, Catholics left the Catholic Church because of corruption.

Even though I am “apparently not familiar” with the early church, I will attempt to answer your points. I hope then that you will be courteous enough to answer my question.

I see no evidence of that in the Ante-Nicene church. In fact Clement of Alexandria was very explicit in saying that Jesus was speaking metaphorically when He said, “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” in the bread of life discourse. I don’t need to give you the reference because I am sure you have come across that in your own studies. I would be interested in your opinion of it though.

Origen also was explicit in denying your belief; would you like me to share that with you? There is also an interesting fragment from Irenaeus that demonstrates the fallacy of your doctrine. I can show that too if you want.

Aside from the more explicit references, in my 10 plus years of early church study I have never come across any evidence that supports your assertion. It is true, however, that if one wants to push their belief on those not so acquainted with the ancient church they can find ways to discard the context and arrange numerous quotes to give the impression that they believed your doctrine. Can you point me to any evidence of Eucharistic worship in the early church? Since you claim that all your doctrines came from the apostles I am sure you must have evidence of Eucharistic worship, right?

It is true that the bishop of Rome can trace his office back to the apostles, but what is this authority thing you are talking about? What does that mean? Does that mean he can proclaim new doctrines and demand that all believers adhere to them or else…?

Yes, and wouldn’t it have been nice if that “visible” church would have remained uncorrupted and true to the apostle’s teachings. The truth is that the body of Christ is not contained in a visible church body. You have tried to contain me in a box and now it appears you are trying to do the same to God.

The church in its infancy was pure and so heresy was easily recognized. But once the church brought in it’s own heresies what then? Believe me, there have been many fractions in the church well before the reformation; the third and fourth centuries being arguably the worst.

Sacrifice of the mass? How does one consecrate bread and wine to Eucharist? Do you know what Eucharist means? And what is “sacrifice” in the context of Christian worship? Is it not as Justin Martyr said?

“Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind…” (Dialog with Trypho 117)

Sounds like a good exegesis on Malachi 1:11. Justin’s understanding is scriptural while yours is not.

“Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.” (Heb. 13:15)

Ante-Nicene reference please? I have not come across that in my studies but apparently you have, so please educate me on the history of this practice.

It defiantly happened, but Tertullian makes an excellent argument against that practice. I agree with Tertullian.

I hope “etc.” includes the Marion doctrines; I would love to hear how the apostles handed them down.

Now my turn: I want to ask the same question I asked before but you did not answer:

I’ll wait.

Brian,

Just a thought. Perhaps you and Janet can come up with a list of essentials and non-essentials that Protestants must believe in?

Since Janet is a self-proclaimed representative of Protestantism she might be able to help you out.

 

[DavidKays]

Well the thing is that these last few posts, to which rinnie was referring are about a Catholic who turned from the CC to become a Protestant and ex-Catholic (namely me).
The question whether or not a non-Catholic who has never been Catholic can be saved is not answered that clearly in Catholic doctrine.
The results of turning from the Catholic faith to become a Protestant Christian are being displayed here. I never realized that the CC is so intense and clear in her judgement of former Catholics, but I surely can accept that position.

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

In Him,
Janet

Hi! I am Greek Orthodox and seeing and reading these posts you guys sure like to pull punches. I will like to make some comments from a Greek Orthodox perspective. I do not think we are to judge one another. You know I can understand what Catholics believe when they are talking about Protestants. But to accuse some people of error when they do not belong to the Catholic Church does not suit well with me. How can you be responsible to what you do not believe. God does not judge the way some of you do in these posts. Look at Catholics before you look at another. Look at your own before you look at another. There are problably more Catholics in error in the Catholic Church than you think of. The problem with Catholics is OK you have the Truth but not everyone practices it. Many Catholics are in error today and since they outnumber Protestants gosh much more then them this causes God more grief than what the Protestants are doing. How can God be more upset to people who are not taught fully the Catholic Faith ( like the Protestants ) . I believe God will grieve more for Catholics who do not put into practice this Faith than to a people who do not profess this Faith in its fullness. We the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will be judged more because we have more to be responsible with. How can Protestants be judged the same or even more! Since they are responsible to what they believe they will be judged less because they have less. Protestants will have it easier than Catholics when they are judged. To him who receives much, much is required and to him who receives little, little is required. I admire Protestants for their deligence and devotions especially their devotion in reading the scriptures and coming together in more unison than their Catholic brethren. When you stick to few devotions but stick very well to them I think you will get alot of praise for that. The great Saint Josemaria from Spain, the Opus Dei founder also commented the same reflections. Keep to few devotions but keep at them. We do well to imitate our Protestant brethren. The Orthodox Church while professing fully the Catholic Faith also teaches the same as what St.Josemaria was commenting on. We keep to few devotions and teach that to our people. Most Orthodox adhere to that so we have a more balanced and committed Communion as we keep and practice those devotions in our life. And by the way many Catholics do not attend church weekly or even believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. The numbers are staggering! The Orthodox do not have that problem at all in their church. Nobody questions the True Presence of Our Lord in the sacrament of Holy Communion. In fact when I attended my first Orthodox Divine Liturgy I was struck why only half the parish went up for Holy Communion and I asked the priest. He commented that the others did not feel worthy and needed to go to Confession. I told that to one of my Roman Catholic friends who is a priest and he said " I wish we were like that ". I hope these reflections were of help. We can learn so much from each other. God Bless!

 

[Brian_Culliton]

I am still waiting for you to cite an Early Church Father that even remotely appears to teach the Protestant beliefs or held that the Church was corrupted.

:Cricketsounds:

Better spin off a new OP since this is way afield now of the original OP…

James

What? You take four consecutive posts to respond and still don’t answer my one question? I will post it one more time; if you do not answer this time I will post my conclusion. Keep in mind this is perfectly on topic because if you cannot demonstrate evidence from apostolic origin why the written Gospel is not sufficient for one to believe and become a child of God, then you have nothing to say about salvation outside the Catholic Church. Here is my question as I originally stated it:

Are there things that one must believe that are not written in the Bible in order to be a member of Christ’s body and be saved? If so, please provide that valuable information and demonstrate that it was handed down from the apostles.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi! I am Greek Orthodox and seeing and reading these posts you guys sure like to pull punches. I will like to make some comments from a Greek Orthodox perspective. I do not think we are to judge one another.
…

I hope these reflections were of help. We can learn so much from each other. God Bless!

For a man who says that he does not like to judge you sure made a lot of judgements here.

• There are problably (sic) more Catholics in error in the Catholic Church than you think of.
• The problem with Catholics is OK you have the Truth but not everyone practices it.
• Many Catholics are in error today and since they outnumber Protestants gosh much more then them this causes God more grief than what the Protestants are doing.
• I admire Protestants for their deligence (sic) and devotions especially their devotion in reading the scriptures and coming together in more unison than their Catholic brethren.
• And by the way many Catholics do not attend church weekly or even believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist.

Brother David, pandering to gain affinity and to advance one’s own chauvinism in their beliefs at the expense of another group (Catholics) never comes across well to anyone. We revere our Orthodox brothers since they share the same apostolic faith. But its not “Orthodox” to try to advance your own faith over Catholics by aligning yourself with Protestants (non-Apostolic faith) as a faith “we’d do well to imitate”. That is pure heresy since they (mostly) reject real presence and the apostolic priesthood and so many other essential beliefs. How can you bemoan your unsubstantiated statistic about the number of practising Catholics who do not belive in real-presence, while boasting that “all” Orthodox believe in real-presence, while holding Protestants who believe on NO real presence (except some Anglican and Lutheran who have no valid holy orders) as worthy of emulation??? My friend, you have an irrational standard and I hope I never have you as my judge.

No Catholic here has judged a single soul and have only given the church teaching about these who are ex-catholics and leaving the faith or those who reject the faith out of invincible ignorance. As we have said over and over only God judges the soul but that such practice is most definately in the arena of grave sin which is a damnable offense and very risky. All that is being said is that those who remain outside the visible Church are putting themselves in a very grave situation with much higher risk of damnation. That is not judgement of a soul that is a warning to a soul that it is in grave error.

Disobedience is not a virtue that will assist in gaining anyone salvation. And Jesus clearly said “those that reject you [the apostolic authority] reject me”. One must obey Christ and His appointed representatives or one is disobedient to God’s commandments. And we know that the one who loves Jesus is the one who obeys ALL His commandments. The saints have told us that more go to hell for disobedience and for impurity than all other sins.

By the way. I have similar concerns as you do about Catholics receiving the Eucharist unworthily since that is a damnable offense. But I ask you to take note that when you say “Catholics don’t do such and such” to please see the obvious - in doing or not doing things against their faith they have either excommunicated themselves or estranged themselves gravely from the Church as poor witnesses to their faith and are more than likely in grave sin. The people you mention whatever their numbers really are are what we call “Cultural Catholics” - Catholics in name only. These are the ones who Christ will reject on their day of judgement who said “Lord Lord” but did not serve Him and do the Father’s will.

Have a good day and try to be less judgemental about the Catholic Church since you have no idea how many Catholics are praying the Liturgy of the Hours, going to mass daily and doing all the various spiritual devotions handed down to us by the saints.

James

 

[Jermosh]

I pray for the poor soul who thinks anyone is going to Hell.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I pray for the poor soul who thinks anyone is going to Hell.

Jermosh, why pray if you think that none are going to hell?

Brother, you seem to have a blatant contradiction here that comes across as hypocritical.

James

 

[Jermosh]

Jermosh, why pray if you think that none are going to hell?

Brother, you seem to have a blatant contradiction here that comes across as hypocritical.

James

Because if you think that someone is going to hell, you are placing judgement on that person and condeming them to hell. I pray for a person to be enlightened of their arrogance and pride.

 

[DavidKays]

.

Dear brother I don’t know where you receive your teaching from but I consider you more of a Protestant than my Protestent brethren. It seems to me that you have already decided to judged them so anyone who disagrees with you is also in that same category. You do not want to be understanding to the other. You have already decided for yourself and for me it is you who are closeminded and when you make judgements like you do you will never have the best interests of our Lord at heart. I have met your kind here on the Island when I operated a Catholic Bookstore for 25 years I was hoping that reconciliation will be possible. I see through my experience that unity will not come to this generation. Probably the next because people like you already have decided what unity should entail and believe me that is not God’s way. The Orthodox Church is a mystical Church. Her teaching comes from a mystical experience so when I talk like I do I am using mystical language. I do not judge people.| talk through mystical language. Now if you knew us a bit better you will know of this but you cannot understand me because you cannot grasp the mystical way, you cannot grasp the mystical language. What you do when you talk is show me that it is all in your head so speak through your heart, speak and understand that way and you better understand what I am saying. If you think I will not last in your Church believe me you will not last either in mine. And by the way talk to my many catholic friends and ask them what heresy I am teaching. I only got to this forum to inquire and make friends. If you don’t like my language, fine, but do not judge me. I am glad God taught me the mystical way. It is much harder to practice yet it is the better way and makes you more open to other people. Please I do not want to discuss anymore these days on this website with people like you. I have many Catholic friends here and we both enjoy each other without pointing fingers. Soon I am hoping for a day when the Orthodox and Catholics can be brothers without malice and misgivings and misunderstandings. I am tired of people who only think through their head and not their heart. That was all my purpose for that post. To help people to understand the mystical way which is the way the Orthodox Church relates and teaches to Her people. God Bless! and I am writing a book about this as well so all my posts in this website has helped me start my book so I am thankful to all here even you because now I have a beginning to start to my book. It was great been on this website but I must confess you can spend too much time on this computer and I rather meet people than do this all the time. God I miss people!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Because if you think that someone is going to hell, you are placing judgement on that person and condeming them to hell. I pray for a person to be enlightened of their arrogance and pride.

Gosh, Jermosh, but don’t you think that it is also judging in calling someone “arrogant and prideful” ? The person you think to pray for is the person you are judging to be on his way to hell by your own judgement. Can’t you see what I am saying?

By the way, if you think no one is going to hell then you better remove the bible verses that tell us of Jesus separating the goats from the sheep on the last day. Also we would have to change the words on all the following catechism statements that would make the Catholic Church insincere in scaring people for no reason:
Catholic Catechism Teachings On Hell:

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

[continued]

[catechism - continued]

Peace,
James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Catholic Catechism Teaching on Hell continued:

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: **“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” **
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (GCD 69), also called “hell.”

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

James

 

[Pete_Holter]

I’ll repeat again: there was no sarcasm or arch tone in my question. I have seen several of them across these discussion boards (“Why does your God allow evil?”, etc.) and mine had none. Again, I believe you over-reacted. If you hadn’t made such a fuss when it occurred, I probably would have let it slide.

I won’t bring it up again, but I still think you should apologize. Your long response appears to skirt the issue.

Welcome to the forums, Major Tom!

I hope that you find your time here on the forums to be an edifying experience and that you’re able to eventually find your way back into the Catholic Church through faith in Jesus Christ (Who was in the heart of the earth for the same length of time as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster ). Hopefully sooner rather than later! In fact, “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees!.. The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel!.. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent!” (Matthew 3:10; Mark 1:15; Acts 17:30)

James, my brother! You have presented a lot of very helpful information in this thread. But please apologize to Major Tom. He is right (cf. Matthew 18:15-16).

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Jermosh]

Gosh, Jermosh, but don’t you think that it is also judging in calling someone “arrogant and prideful” ? The person you think to pray for is the person you are judging to be on his way to hell by your own judgement. Can’t you see what I am saying?

By the way, if you think no one is going to hell then you better remove the bible verses that tell us of Jesus separating the goats from the sheep on the last day. Also we would have to change the words on all the following catechism statements that would make the Catholic Church insincere in scaring people for no reason:

[catechism - continued]

Peace,
James

I never said no one is not going to hell, I just cannot say who. Are you going to say that I am going to hell? Or that any specific person is going to hell? Do you think that you are a better Judge then God on the true intent of my heart, that you have the power to clense one in the Blood of Christ?