Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[Ignatius]

I was reading other posts just seeing what I can learn about Catholicism and I found this in a post.

"*The Catholic Church . . . . *

You have to remember that there were no Protestants when this was written so it cannot apply to Protestants.
In direct answer to the title question “Do Catholics believe Protestants are goign to hell?”, the answer is no, The Catholic Church does not teach that all Protestants go to hell.

 

[Major_Tom]

If a protestant comes to realize that the Catholic Church is truly the One True Church established on earth by Jesus Christ, yet he continues to reject Her (maybe because converting would offend his family or whatever) then he has rejected the Church and has thus rejected God (“Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” - Lk 10:16).

But anyone (whether protestant or muslim or pagan or whatever) who never has a fair opportunity to consider the Catholic Church, yet strives to live by his conscience alone, may yet obtain salvation. These people are not saved because of their beliefs, but in spite of them.

Lots of good mini-topics for discussion on this thread…

I wholeheartedly agree with the second portion above. I believe God manifests himselfs to all in some form, and can be judged on the life that they lead.

Personally, I am closer to your first paragraph. I’m not a Protestant, but am a former Catholic, so would have to say that I have been exposed to the Catholic Church, yet choose not to participate.

I do not believe that God wants me to go through the motions, and call myself Catholic, go to church, tell my kids that I believe in the Trinity, transubstantiation, etc. if I do not genuinely believe these things. No one wins in that scenario: not me, not my kids, not God.

I’ve seen suggestions to others that they pray for strength to rejoin the Church. I pray for wisdom and enlightenment, but I do not pray for that. I wouldn’t pray for strength to join a group that I don’t agree with, much like most of you wouldn’t pray to Allah for strength to attend the nearest mosque. I also acknowledge, humbly, that I am a sinner, do not know all things, do not know what the future holds, and I may well end up in your Church some day…. (and who knows, you may end up in mine!)

The path from Jesus’ death to the Church of today has been a thousand steps of opinion/techings/policy. I disagree with some of those steps, question other steps, and frankly don’t know much about others. I acknowledge Jesus made Peter the rock of his church, but question the infallibility that is read beyond that. I am not willing to say “Well, I trust the Church’s teaching, so I’ll just have to stifle it and accept it on faith alone”. I do not think God will blame me for this, nor punish me for it. I love to read a variety of opinions on the subject, and may accept the Church’s authority after I’ve read fully of it.

I believe God gave me a brain for a reason; he doesn’t want an automaton that mindlessly recites policy. If he wanted that, we would all be automatons and wouldn’t be discussing this. The cause of my ‘heretical’ position is what? Satan? Ignorance? Only God can know for sure. I tend to think some of y’all give hit some of those topics much too hard for my taste. Sure there’s bad stuff in the world, but I see the glass as being half-full, not half-empty. I was doing some reading of the Cathechism for this thread, and was surprised to see in the Index that there are more references to ‘evil’ (22) than to ‘love’ (19), more references to ‘hell’ (7) than ‘heaven’ (3), and a whopping 87 references to evil, contrasted with 38 for ‘love’ and ‘charity’. That’s not the balance that I’m looking for.

 

[Major_Tom]

Welcome to the forums, Major Tom!

I hope that you find your time here on the forums to be an edifying experience and that you’re able to eventually find your way back into the Catholic Church through faith in Jesus Christ (Who was in the heart of the earth for the same length of time as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster ). Hopefully sooner rather than later! In fact, “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees!.. The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel!.. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent!” (Matthew 3:10; Mark 1:15; Acts 17:30)

In Christ,
Pete

I just read your post, after my post #142 was uploaded. Thanks for the welcome!

 

[rinnie]

Because if you think that someone is going to hell, you are placing judgement on that person and condeming them to hell. I pray for a person to be enlightened of their arrogance and pride.

But Jermosh would a person who was not enlightened of their arrogance and pride be puttting thier own soul in mortal danger?

 

[Major_Tom]

But Jermosh would a person who was not enlightened of their arrogance and pride be puttting thier own soul in mortal danger?

Delivery is everything! For a moment, put yourself into that other person’s shoes. Now imagine a well-meaning Catholic coming along and saying, “But I’m only trying to enlighten you of your arrogance and pride that has put your immortal soul into grave danger?”

If a Muslim approached you with those words, do you think that you would experience a change of heart and embrace Allah? I would assume not.

 

[aspirant]

I pray for the poor soul who thinks anyone is going to Hell.

A good practice.

Jermosh, why pray if you think that none are going to hell?

He did not claim, in the post you quoted, that none are going to hell.

I never said no one is not going to hell, I just cannot say who.

Exactly.

 

[aspirant]

In direct answer to the title question “Do Catholics believe Protestants are goign to hell?”, the answer is no, The Catholic Church does not teach that all Protestants go to hell.

In truth, Catholics do not claim to know with certainty whether any person has ever gone to hell. We certainly believe it is possible for people to go there, but there is no ecclesial list of people who have gone there, no infernal mirror to the canon of saints.

 

[CentralFLJames]

.

Dear brother I don’t know where you receive your teaching from but I consider you more of a Protestant than my Protestent brethren. It seems to me that you have already decided to judged them so anyone who disagrees with you is also in that same category. You do not want to be understanding to the other. You have already decided for yourself and for me it is you who are closeminded and when you make judgements like you do you will never have the best interests of our Lord at heart. I have met your kind here on the Island when I operated a Catholic Bookstore for 25 years …

It was great been on this website but I must confess you can spend too much time on this computer and I rather meet people than do this all the time. God I miss people!

David, I’ll presume that you are speaking to me in the above missive.
I guess I will have to assume the best intentions that you are again here speaking “mystically” or have some kind of logic and language barrier and not really being hypocritical in judging me personally?

Sorry your stay here on CAF is so short. But I am afraid I must conclude that you took your hasty exit as another opportunity to judge me and hurdle more ad homonyms and pithy judgements against me. That’s OK the apostles had to suffer insults and I can too.

I hope you can rise above this some day brother. You claim that you are using mystical forms of communication but I think you are just simply having trouble communicating in the English language since I saw no metaphor or allegory in your writing - just simple pandering at the expense of your Roman Catholic brothers. But to your credit English is probably a second language and something no doubt gets lost in the translation. Mysticism maybe works better in the language the writers of mythology liked to use just like the Christian scripture writers liked to use - Greek.

BTW I am very familiar with mystical concepts. It may surprise you that many Roman Catholics follow quite a bit of Eastern spiritual disciplines and traditions - especially St. St. Gregory I the Great , St. John of the Cross and others. For example we know about the Way which speaks of the progression of sanctification by means of the “purgative way”, the “illuminative way”, and the “unitive way”.

But I wish you well and hope you can learn to get further along the way and be less judgemental of others.

People “like me” just want to have clear level headed discussion and not get into personal attacks. Please take that to “heart”.

αντίο!

James

 

[Lutheranteach]

Martin Luther is another case. There we have an apostate schismatic heretic. Still I would try and withhold judgment, although we can be certain that what he did was evil.

I disagree. I think what he did was one of the great “goods” in the history of humankind. Now the good he brought about may have been in spite of himself, but still great good. In the history of mankind, he’s got to be in the top 100 of the most important people who ever lived and probably one of the top 10, if not top 5 emancipators of all time.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I never said no one is not going to hell, I just cannot say who. Are you going to say that I am going to hell? Or that any specific person is going to hell? Do you think that you are a better Judge then God on the true intent of my heart, that you have the power to clense one in the Blood of Christ?

Well just a moment ago you were all prepared to pray from somone who in your judgement was on their way to hell for also judging others. Are you saying you were going to pray for no on in particular just in case somone was judging others?

As for your second comment - why would you judge to think that I believe I am a better judge than God when I never made any judgement of you or anyone else here? In your case I was simply asking you for clarification to help you clarify your prior contradictions. Tell you what. Since you are having such difficulty grasping such a simple concept and seem to be wrapped around the axle let’s just drop it and let it go ok? I don’t have time to dance around the Maypole with you back and forth on this silliness…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Martin Luther is another case. There we have an apostate schismatic heretic. Still I would try and withhold judgment, although we can be certain that what he did was evil.

I disagree. I think what he did was one of the great “goods” in the history of humankind. Now the good he brought about may have been in spite of himself, but still great good. In the history of mankind, he’s got to be in the top 100 of the most important people who ever lived and probably one of the top 10, if not top 5 emancipators of all time.

Your judgement is disordered and I think your analysis of Luther is devoid of the sense of damage that he did to the Church. His arrogance and pride resulted ultimately in millions being slaughtered and the many schisms and fracturing we see to this day in Christendom. As a calibration point would you claim that Satan was in the top #1 slot for all time best things that ever happened to humanity for making it necessary for Jesus tom come in the flesh to save humanity and raise our nature above Adam’s? We Catholics say “oh happy fault of Adam who won us so great a redeemer” but we don’t think to raise Adam or Satan in estate in the instrumentality of that fault.

In Luther’s case we are not equipped to assess the spiritual damage done to so many deceived souls. It would be utterly naive to assume that no souls perished by following his personal life example and his erroneous teachings which the Catholic Church has fully anathematized; the worst thing the Church can do to any heretic. What is the cost of a single soul lost for eternity by the whims of such a man?

As to the damage, the massive fracturing of Christendom is still ongoing as Protestantism continues to splinter into every imaginable variant teaching to accommodate anything one wants to believe by his errors of sola scriptura under the addictive opium of “sola fide”. Ironically, Luther, if he could come back today, save the ongoing rejection of legitimate ecclesial authority, would find NO resemblance in all of modern Protestantism to anything he ever taught. And I doubt even Lutherans would argue against that statement.

The catholic church assumes its saints into heaven but will not assume anyone into hell - not even Luther or Judas et-al. Some say that Luther repented on his death bed but I have been unable to find any written accounts of this. All I will say further is that “I can think of no one single man in history that has done more damage against the Christendom viz the Catholic Church as has Luther”. I would not want to have been in his shoes when he meets the person who identified personally with His Church and said “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?”.

God help Luther is my final word on the man in this topic.

James

 

[rinnie]

Delivery is everything! For a moment, put yourself into that other person’s shoes. Now imagine a well-meaning Catholic coming along and saying, “But I’m only trying to enlighten you of your arrogance and pride that has put your immortal soul into grave danger?”

If a Muslim approached you with those words, do you think that you would experience a change of heart and embrace Allah? I would assume not.

That is not a answer to my question!

 

[aspirant]

Well just a moment ago you were all prepared to pray from somone who in your judgement was on their way to hell for also judging others.

He did not say that in his judgment anyone was on their way to hell. You are reading things into his words that he has neither said nor affirmed.

 

[Major_Tom]

That is not a answer to my question!

For the record, if someone told me that I was ignorant, being influenced by Satan, etc., and that my immortal soul was in danger because I do not believe in the teachings of the Church… I would probably say something like “Thanks for your concern. I do not believe that I am ignorant. I aspire to have an open mind as I explore God, and I hope that you keep an open mind as well.”

My point was on delivery. If you want to evangelize, I think the blunt approach is not real effective. I think you tend to get the weak-minded people who don’t know any better. A more subtle, active-listening approach, where you also show humility and respect, is much more likely to communicate your message better, and likely more efficacious.

 

[CentralFLJames]

For the record, if someone told me that I was ignorant, being influenced by Satan, etc., and that my immortal soul was in danger because I do not believe in the teachings of the Church… I would probably say something like “Thanks for your concern. I do not believe that I am ignorant. I aspire to have an open mind as I explore God, and I hope that you keep an open mind as well.”

My point was on delivery. If you want to evangelize, I think the blunt approach is not real effective. I think you tend to get the weak-minded people who don’t know any better. A more subtle, active-listening approach, where you also show humility and respect, is much more likely to communicate your message better, and likely more efficacious.

But by not telling people that they are ignorant we’d be removing the excuse of ignorance now wouldn’t we? It’s better to affirm them in ignorance right up front IMHO.

There’s nothing wrong with just getting the truth out there plain and simple so “intelligent” and “responsible” people can go back and look into the matter at their leisure. After being informed the moral obligation of the recipient is to educate himself and investigate and then learn more if needed.

I don’t think that good salesmanship is as incumbent on believers as is the need to get the truth out. Except for Paul being passionate and using fancy rhetorical arguments in some of his speeches we don’t see a lot of “fluff” and sales gimmicks in the bible. Jesus just gave parables, explained them and let people take it in. He didn’t use backup sales pitches, powerpoint slides or modify his teachings to pander or to make a truth more palatable. He certainly never ran after those who rejected his teachings (ref. Real Presence rejection in John 6:66) to beg any to reconsider. As Jesus said “No one can come to Him unless the Father beckons.” I think a lot of people come to a false Jesus of fluff and love-and-lollipops - a neo-Christ that never existed.

God can do the calling and the selling since he can make even us dumb donkey’s speak the truth (ref. Balaam’s donkey - Numbers 22:21-41). I gave up on trying to ride people hard into a logic wall and also then getting beat about the head and shoulders for trying to get their attention. Only God can change hearts - but we can certianly get the truth out as best we can and let it work on a person’s conscience and drive them to the truth or drive them crazy trying to reject what they know in their hearts is true.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Welcome to the forums, Major Tom!

I hope that you find your time here on the forums to be an edifying experience and that you’re able to eventually find your way back into the Catholic Church through faith in Jesus Christ (Who was in the heart of the earth for the same length of time as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster ). Hopefully sooner rather than later! In fact, “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees!.. The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel!.. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent!” (Matthew 3:10; Mark 1:15; Acts 17:30)

James, my brother! You have presented a lot of very helpful information in this thread. But please apologize to Major Tom. He is right (cf. Matthew 18:15-16).

In Christ,
Pete

Pete - clear up your full mailbox since I have something I want to tell you in private and I can’t message you until you delete some old messages and get some space.

James

 

[Ignatius]

In truth, Catholics do not claim to know with certainty whether any person has ever gone to hell. .

OK, but that’s a little off point.
The point being that there were no Protestants when this was written so it cannot apply to Protestants.
And, The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants go to hell. Or, put in the affirmative form; The Catholic Church does teach that there is a possibility that some Protestants may be saved.

 

[aspirant]

The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants go to hell. Or, put in the affirmative form; The Catholic Church does teach that there is a possibility that some Protestants may be saved.

As I’ve said before. And saying “Catholics do not claim to know with certainty whether any person has ever gone to hell” is very relevant to that: it was an expression of agreement with the post I quoted.

 

[CentralFLJames]

snippet from Brian Culliton:

Are there things that one must believe that are not written in the Bible in order to be a member of Christ’s body and be saved? If so, please provide that valuable information and demonstrate that it was handed down from the apostles.

What? You take four consecutive posts to respond and still don’t answer my one question? I will post it one more time; if you do not answer this time I will post my conclusion. Keep in mind this is perfectly on topic because if you cannot demonstrate evidence from apostolic origin why the written Gospel is not sufficient for one to believe and become a child of God, then you have nothing to say about salvation outside the Catholic Church. Here is my question as I originally stated it:

You are being insincere and intellectually dishonest in fronting the appearance that this was your only question. You asked me for evidence of ECF teachings concerning Catholic belief and at the same time ignored my request to make the case that any of the ECFs had Protestant teachings. You failed in that latter rebuttal and now throw up a smokescreen to try to steer the dialog along a sola scriptura line of reasoning which you have not been able to prove is a valid ECF teaching because you know you can’t. You disappoint me and are wasting everyone’s time here.

You have failed to make any of your case but nonetheless I will answer your last question for others here who may be reading along with interest with a more sincere desire to actually learn the truth rather than just engage in a contest.

To wit:
The NT scriptures tell us plainly that there are many handed down traditions both orally and by written word that one must follow. It also tells us quite plainly that not all that Jesus did was written in the various books. The apostles also tell us that that there are many writings that are hard to understand and many of the ignorant and untrained go down to their destruction by trying to interpret them on their own. The apostles also say that there is no private interpretation of scripture and that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth and to take up all issues to the church. One must also come to know that the bible itself COMES FROM TRADITION. So, the bible can never contradict sacred tradition since the NT portion is really just a part of our written oral tradition.

That said Catholics believe and teach that the bible in the context of the Church magisterial teaching and taken as a WHOLE contains all of what is essential information for salvation. Again, it contains all the information essential but It must be properly interpreted and taught according to our handed down teaching tradition present in the magisterial authority of the Church. I will need to find an official reference stating this but its filed away in the back of my memory. That said, the bible contains none of the sacraments nor is itself an authority that can bind and loose nor can it in and of itself “save” anyone. It references tradition but does not containt it all. Also, The bible can not be taken out the context of its mother - the Church. It can not be used as an instrument to divide child and mother against each other. That would be a clear signal of invalid teaching and precisely the thing we would expect from the false doctrine of sola scriptura.

This answers you question.
OK so where do you want to go with this now? Are you ready to convert?

James

 

[Jermosh]

Well just a moment ago you were all prepared to pray from somone who in your judgement was on their way to hell for also judging others. Are you saying you were going to pray for no on in particular just in case somone was judging others?

As for your second comment - why would you judge to think that I believe I am a better judge than God when I never made any judgement of you or anyone else here? In your case I was simply asking you for clarification to help you clarify your prior contradictions. Tell you what. Since you are having such difficulty grasping such a simple concept and seem to be wrapped around the axle let’s just drop it and let it go ok? I don’t have time to dance around the Maypole with you back and forth on this silliness…

James