Do Catholics despise Anglicans?

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Hardly, speaking for myself. Generally, Catholics despise no one faith or those following other faiths. Personally, I was engaged to a Lutheran, and never encouraged his conversion to Catholicism. I said, let’s attend both Masses. When I was in high school, my next door neighbor was a Lutheran priest. As a sign of respect, my mother and I did attend both services. Cathloic, 'cos we are, and Lutheran 'cos he invited us. I still feel it easier to hold discussions with Liturgical faiths (Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal) versus Evangelical faiths. Most Liturgical Protestants grasp the discussion, as they relate closer in practice. Well, that’s in my experience.
 
Just out of curiosity, since the subject of ordaining homosexual priests came up…is that problem that people have with it the fact that the man is homosexual or the fact that he OPENLY practices it?
The problem is not with OPENLY practicing homosexual acts but with practicing ANY homosexual acts. It is certainly not about whether a person has SSA.
And second, this is a little off topic and I do apologize, but if someone WAS validly confirmed in the Episcopal Church and then became Catholic, and the Bishop had given orders that former Episcopalians had to go through the RCIA process and completely reconfirmed, what exactly would happen? Since it’s a Sacrament that can only be received once, what exactly would happen if someone attempted to receive it twice? I hope this makes some sense, but it’s getting late, so it might not!!!
Going through RCIA is no problem. Everyone should be held to a measureable standard. I had the education of a priest and I had to go through it. Learned a LOT in the patience and humility department.

Repeating an unrepeatable Sacrament entails sacrilege. Perhaps in this case with the uncertainties involved, the Lord will understand that no willful sacrilege has been intended.

But I STILL say that Anglicans should be confirmed conditionally at this point in history.
 
And I’m not anti-Catholic, either. I’m Anglo-Catholic. And certainly there was a political component. And a personal one, on the part of Cardinal Vaughan, who was responsible for the setting up of the commission to examine two questions (note: neither question initially had to do with whether Anglican orders were invalid, though answering them and explaining the answers led to that). The result was *Apostolicae Curae * (signed by Leo, written by Monsignor Merry del Val, with the assistance of Dom Francis Gasquet). All specifically designed to derail the efforts of Lord Halifax and the Abbe Portal.
Dear GKC,
Could you give some more information for this? I’m still reading into the matter, especially now since I’ve been able to access several works from that period. The Anglican ordination question is one that is extremely interesting to me. But I do seem to recall that Dom Gasquet and Canon Moyes denied it, and that they and any part in the writing of the bull, and that there were equal counter allegations from the Catholic side regarding Rev. Lacey and Lord Halifax.

Perhaps I should start a new thread on the topic. It’s one I would like to explore in greater detail.
 
Dear GKC,
Could you give some more information for this? I’m still reading into the matter, especially now since I’ve been able to access several works from that period. The Anglican ordination question is one that is extremely interesting to me. But I do seem to recall that Dom Gasquet and Canon Moyes denied it, and that they and any part in the writing of the bull, and that there were equal counter allegations from the Catholic side regarding Rev. Lacey and Lord Halifax.

Perhaps I should start a new thread on the topic. It’s one I would like to explore in greater detail.
Greetings, AJV,

Yes, I can, if I can find time. My life has changed recently, and I rarely have time for long posts. But I’ll try. Start a new thread if you wish. Here, I’ll very quickly speak to this one. The subject, as you know, is voluminous.

It’s possible, through their later comments, to roughly determine what the votes of the 8 commissioners were (though remember that their votes were only a recommendation to the cardinals meeting under the Holy Office). Of the 8, 4 ( Duschene, Gasparri, de Augustinis, Scannell) were apparently for declaring Anglican orders valid, or possibly valid. The other 4 ( Gasquet, Moyes, Fleming and de Llaveneras) were for invalidity. These 4 included the 3 English representatives selected by Cardinal Vaughan, who had been preparing the anti-Anglican vota, Ordines Anglicani, for several month before the commission was announced. Cardinal Vaughan believed in planning ahead. As far as can be determined, all commissioners’ opinions remained the same, no one changed their minds during the realtively brief meetings.

Halifax and Lacey had no part in the commission; no Anglican did. This was, of course, far from what Halifax and Portal had originally hoped for, when they started their work, which was joint theological discussions, sort of like the current ARCIC, that might bring the two Churches closer. Lacey was in Rome, purely in an unofficial capacity, in case any questions related to Anglicanism might need an Anglican (name removed by moderator)ut (and he was a superb Latinist) . Lacey’s ROMAN DIARY is interesting reading.

Halifix and Portal has selected the issue of orders (it was Portal’s idea; Halifax was dubious) as a topic that might be used to start the discussions. But what resulted was Apostolicae Curae. A complicated and sad story. If there are questions, I’d try to reply, if I know and if I can find the time. Meanwhile, For the history involved, Hughes’ ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID is the best account. Halifax’s LEO XIII AND ANGLICAN ORDERS is also revealing. And the other books I mentioned above should be read, too, Clark for the best theological discussion of* AC*, from the RC standpoint, Hughes’ STEWARDS OF THE LORD for the best consideration of what the Anglican Church was doing with the Edwardine ordinal.

GKC
 
"That ICAN whatever it is in Brazil has a Bishop (s) decended from one (Calros Duarte Costa) that broke with Rome.

I suspect you are thinking of the Charismatic Episcopal Church?

GKC
Here is the Church. It is the Worldwide Communion page. You can link the Brazilian Mother Church from here.

catholic-ican.org/

I am familiar with the CEC. They have recently had some issues and one of their Bishops converted to Catholicsm and became a laymen (was heavily involved in Right to Life). There is also a connection to the above. Another convert to Catholicsm who spoke on Marcus Grodi’s show and was a CEC priest was doing research and discovered that the CEC did not have valid orders. He then resolved this by having the lines of Costa introduced to the CEC. Apparently they did it quietly so as not to cause a stir by saying they had invalid lines of succession.

But, as Fr. Pacwa said, having valid Apostolic succession is not the end all and be all. Being in communion with Rome and the Holy father on the other hand IS important.

Rev North
 
Here is the Church. It is the Worldwide Communion page. You can link the Brazilian Mother Church from here.

catholic-ican.org/

I am familiar with the CEC. They have recently had some issues and one of their Bishops converted to Catholicsm and became a laymen (was heavily involved in Right to Life). There is also a connection to the above. Another convert to Catholicsm who spoke on Marcus Grodi’s show and was a CEC priest was doing research and discovered that the CEC did not have valid orders. He then resolved this by having the lines of Costa introduced to the CEC. Apparently they did it quietly so as not to cause a stir by saying they had invalid lines of succession.

But, as Fr. Pacwa said, having valid Apostolic succession is not the end all and be all. Being in communion with Rome and the Holy father on the other hand IS important.

Rev North
There is a gentleman who frequently posts here who knows the CEC situation intimately. And personally.

Perhaps he might comment.

GKC
 
Here is the Church. It is the Worldwide Communion page. You can link the Brazilian Mother Church from here.

catholic-ican.org/

I am familiar with the CEC. They have recently had some issues and one of their Bishops converted to Catholicsm and became a laymen (was heavily involved in Right to Life). There is also a connection to the above. Another convert to Catholicsm who spoke on Marcus Grodi’s show and was a CEC priest was doing research and discovered that the CEC did not have valid orders. He then resolved this by having the lines of Costa introduced to the CEC. Apparently they did it quietly so as not to cause a stir by saying they had invalid lines of succession.

But, as Fr. Pacwa said, having valid Apostolic succession is not the end all and be all. Being in communion with Rome and the Holy father on the other hand IS important.

Rev North
In terms of the ICAN (Brazil/Worldwide) the Canon law expert on EWTN’s public QA bascially answered as Fr. Pacwa did. In other words, validity of Apostolic succession is not the most important thing…adherence to the Catholic Church and the Holy Father IS.

Fr. Gantley, JCL
"There seems to be an ever-growing number of groups claiming the title “Catholic” while not truly being Catholic.

To be Catholic means being in communion with the bishop of the Rome, the pope, and all bishops in union with him. This group is not.

I don’t know of any definitive recognition of their valid apostolic succession and thus valid orders and Eucharist. It may be, but I don’t know of any official determination.

Joining this group would be an objective grave sin and an act of schism from the true Catholic Church.

Personally, I see no reason why the true Catholic Church should make positive determinations about the valid apostolic succession of all of these schismatic groups. All that would do would be to lend credibility to their schismatic activities.

If a true Catholic attended one of their Masses, it would NOT fulfill the obligation of Sunday Mass."

So from their point of view if you apply that to the Ancient Anglican Church…who cares if they have valid orders they are in schism.

Rev North
 
People who try to force their belief on others or hate other ‘clean’ religions abviously aren’t as close to God as they claim to be…
 
So from their point of view if you apply that to the Ancient Anglican Church…who cares if they have valid orders they are in schism.

Rev North
It matters when they decide to reunite with the Catholic faith through the RCIA, because it’s important to know whether they have been Confirmed or received First Holy Communion, yet.

In my Diocese, the answer to that question is, “No, they have not.” But yes, it matters.
 
Pretty selfish guy, I’ll give you that, but had every reason in the world to know that his annulment denial was politically motivated by Clement.
Hmmm, no. Henry had a papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon and then tried to claim later that the dispension wasn’t allowable. However, the pope has the power of binding and loosing. The original dispensation stood, as it should have.

Henry had zero theologians to support him until he paid large bribes to English and continental theologians to work it up for him. They falsified quotations of church fathers and everything. Many lamented and repented (and fled England in the aftermath).

The pope didn’t really have a dog in that fight, politically.

A church founded in divorce and lust and since then a true leader in embracing all manner of heresy in sexual moral theology. Don’t think it’s just the free exchange of ideas; ideas have consequences and I am one who has to help pick up the pieces. So yeah, I’ll thunder on like an OT prophet about the unrighteousness. A pretty liturgy and nice boychoir hymns is washing the outside of the cup. Whitewashed sepulchres.

I am not hateful to individual Piskies or Anglicans; but I have read too much history and my father’s side of the family was Recusant. They paid the price over and over again in the penal laws–higher taxation, lost property, etc.

So should American blacks just happily ignore the history of slavery? It’s a similar thing–a deep wound. My [English] grandmother used to mutter under her breath while in the [English] cathedrals…*stolen property!

*I think many American ECUSA piskies are entirely oblivious to what went on, because of the disconnect across the Atlantic. They retained anglophilia and snobbery, though, and seem to be entirely oblivious to how offensive it is. It shows that it is not small-c catholic at all. It’s upsetting to me to witness how snobbish my sibs have become; that’s not the way we were raised at all.

My sibs are Piskie and subject me to all kinds of peppery comments. It didn’t used to be that way. I say not a thiing and pray by myself very early or very late so as not to disturb anyone or expose their children to Romanism! I’ve not rubbed their noses in any of the ECUSA heresies/apostasies du jour. Lord, there’s plenty of material; I save it for the Internet. But they say things…little digs. What in their church life is inspiring them to do this? Preaching? Social conversation?

I think the C of E/ECUSA has a hard time because they’re too Protestant to be Catholic, the claim of being the Third Branch is patently ridiculous; and American-style evangelical and fundamentalist and pentecostal and revivalist Christianity see them as non-Christian and apostate, probably ranking them with JWs and Mormons. We freedom-loving Americans loathe state churches, too, don’t overlook that. So, it’s a pale imitation of Protestant religion and a pale imitation of Catholic religion. That’s a cup of weak tea.

Does that help answer your question? Forgive my lack of charity. I thunder because I love.
 
I dont despise them.
They are doing a good enough job of not agreeing with each other for me to add to their list of headaches.
It seems to me that Catholics seem to have more of a disliking for The Anglican Communion than for anyone else, even Lutherans. Why is this? Is is because the Anglican reformers in the 16th century kept most of the RC form of worship when they split from Rome? Is it because of King Henry or Queen Elizabeth II? Or possibly could it be that Anglicans actually profess the Eucharist to be exactly what RC’s believe that it is?
 
In terms of the ICAN (Brazil/Worldwide) the Canon law expert on EWTN’s public QA bascially answered as Fr. Pacwa did. In other words, validity of Apostolic succession is not the most important thing…adherence to the Catholic Church and the Holy Father IS.

Fr. Gantley, JCL
"There seems to be an ever-growing number of groups claiming the title “Catholic” while not truly being Catholic.

To be Catholic means being in communion with the bishop of the Rome, the pope, and all bishops in union with him. This group is not.

I don’t know of any definitive recognition of their valid apostolic succession and thus valid orders and Eucharist. It may be, but I don’t know of any official determination.

Joining this group would be an objective grave sin and an act of schism from the true Catholic Church.

Personally, I see no reason why the true Catholic Church should make positive determinations about the valid apostolic succession of all of these schismatic groups. All that would do would be to lend credibility to their schismatic activities.

If a true Catholic attended one of their Masses, it would NOT fulfill the obligation of Sunday Mass."

So from their point of view if you apply that to the Ancient Anglican Church…who cares if they have valid orders they are in schism.

Rev North
If the question is to me, of course Anglicans are in schism. So are the Romans. From each other (that’ll start a new thread). Did you perhaps think I believed that if Anglican orders were suddenly declared valid, Rome would embrace Anglicans as blood brothers, equals in all other matters, exchange the secret handshakes and the lesser passwords, and let us put “Catholic” on our stationary? Halifax’s and Portal’s aim was to attempt to reduce the width of that schism. That what they got was *Apostolicae Curae *fascinates and saddens me.

My interest is in the historical acts and personalites of the people involved in, and events that led up to Apostolicae Curae. I’m not of the opinion that the issue of orders is the totality of what separates us. But it’s one of the parts of the division that I’m interested in, and interested in being able to discuss in detail, and that accurately. I have other such interests.

OTOH, if this post has nothing to do with our previous exchanges, ignore the above and carry on.

But what, pray, is the Ancient Anglican Church, and where did it come into the discussion? Did I miss something?

GKC
 
It seems to me that Catholics seem to have more of a disliking for The Anglican Communion than for anyone else, even Lutherans. Why is this? Iss?
can you provide some evidence for your assumption that Catholics dislike Anglicans? or members of any other denomination for that matter. I am Catholic, and I don’t particularly dislike any member of any denomination, individually or collectively, so please don’t cast nasturtiums. I have, and the Catholic Church has, legitimate doctrinal and practice issues with other denominations, but how does that translate necessarily to dislike of individuals?
 
Hmmm, no. Henry had a papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon and then tried to claim later that the dispension wasn’t allowable. However, the pope has the power of binding and loosing. The original dispensation stood, as it should have.

Henry had zero theologians to support him until he paid large bribes to English and continental theologians to work it up for him. They falsified quotations of church fathers and everything. Many lamented and repented (and fled England in the aftermath).

The pope didn’t really have a dog in that fight, politically.

A church founded in divorce and lust and since then a true leader in embracing all manner of heresy in sexual moral theology. Don’t think it’s just the free exchange of ideas; ideas have consequences and I am one who has to help pick up the pieces. So yeah, I’ll thunder on like an OT prophet about the unrighteousness. A pretty liturgy and nice boychoir hymns is washing the outside of the cup. Whitewashed sepulchres.

I am not hateful to individual Piskies or Anglicans; but I have read too much history and my father’s side of the family was Recusant. They paid the price over and over again in the penal laws–higher taxation, lost property, etc.

So should American blacks just happily ignore the history of slavery? It’s a similar thing–a deep wound. My [English] grandmother used to mutter under her breath while in the [English] cathedrals…*stolen property!

*I think many American ECUSA piskies are entirely oblivious to what went on, because of the disconnect across the Atlantic. They retained anglophilia and snobbery, though, and seem to be entirely oblivious to how offensive it is. It shows that it is not small-c catholic at all. It’s upsetting to me to witness how snobbish my sibs have become; that’s not the way we were raised at all.

My sibs are Piskie and subject me to all kinds of peppery comments. It didn’t used to be that way. I say not a thiing and pray by myself very early or very late so as not to disturb anyone or expose their children to Romanism! I’ve not rubbed their noses in any of the ECUSA heresies/apostasies du jour. Lord, there’s plenty of material; I save it for the Internet. But they say things…little digs. What in their church life is inspiring them to do this? Preaching? Social conversation?

I think the C of E/ECUSA has a hard time because they’re too Protestant to be Catholic, the claim of being the Third Branch is patently ridiculous; and American-style evangelical and fundamentalist and pentecostal and revivalist Christianity see them as non-Christian and apostate, probably ranking them with JWs and Mormons. We freedom-loving Americans loathe state churches, too, don’t overlook that. So, it’s a pale imitation of Protestant religion and a pale imitation of Catholic religion. That’s a cup of weak tea.

Does that help answer your question? Forgive my lack of charity. I thunder because I love.
Forgive me but your reply lacks charity. By responding with hyperbole you are no different than Protestant fudamentalists and others who do not like the RCC responding that (to use your words) the Catholic Church with all of her “nice cathedrals and boy choirs is washing the outside of the cup. Whitewashed sepulchres”. Inside it is seething with a history of deceitful practices such as selling indulgences, pieces of the true cross, corrupt and evil popes, murder, adulterous Bishops and Cardinals, gay clergy living with other men and tolerated pederasty. Collusion between the Church and evil dictatorships for gain of the Church. Pagan practices corrupting the Catholic Church in South American countries blended with the gospel. The RCC is apostate and …and yada yada.

Even if I used your line and said that was spoken because as you said “I love”, would you not find that unjust and over the top.

{PS I certainly do not believe the Catholic Church should be characterized like that NOR in Christian Charity do I believe the integrity of the Anglican Church should be so characterized. There are MANY things in each church’s history to cause us to hang our head in shame. Heck…that is why the Holy Father has acknoweldged some of the problems and apologized for the Churches actions}. Yea…JP the Great (what a witness) 👍

North
 
OTOH, if this post has nothing to do with our previous exchanges, ignore the above and carry on.

But what, pray, is the Ancient Anglican Church, and where did it come into the discussion? Did I miss something?

GKC
On paragraph one you are correct. It was some digging I did on the ICAN Communion and a question I posted to EWTN regarding apostolic succession. This issue was why the CEC and the former CEC priest introduced the Costa lines form the ICAN into the CEC.

2nd paragraph…oops. I shold have said ancient Anglican Church. No…I did not just create a new communion. But why not, all I would have to do is introduce the Costa lines and off we go. 😃

North
 
Hmmm, no. Henry had a papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon and then tried to claim later that the dispension wasn’t allowable. However, the pope has the power of binding and loosing. The original dispensation stood, as it should have.

Henry had zero theologians to support him until he paid large bribes to English and continental theologians to work it up for him. They falsified quotations of church fathers and everything. Many lamented and repented (and fled England in the aftermath).

The pope didn’t really have a dog in that fight, politically.
Let me isolate these paras, and talk a little history. Yep, along with Apostalicae Curae, I’m into Henry and his search for a decree of nullity. All sorts of historical hobbies.

What Henry tried to get Clement to do was a commonplace at the time. The entire system of dispensations and impediments in effect at that time was designed to permit the making and breaking of marriages for state and dynastic reasons, while still permiting the Church to control the sacrament of marriage. The thing got so out of hand it was cut down to size by Trent.

Henry’s case, as he presented it, was based on the Levitical prohibition against marrying a brother’s widow. It was not a particularly strong causa; but as the sytem worked at the time, it didn’t need to be. It certainly was as strong as, say, the cases his sister presented, for her two decrees of nullity, and Henry has every reason to expect he would get his, too. Happened all the time, literally. But most of the time, there wasn’t an aunt of Charles VII involved. Clement not only had a dog in the fight, he was trapped in the middle of it himself, esp. after Pavia. Clement was under Charles’ thumb, and was not the most forceful of men anyway. No chance he would rule against the Emperor.

The issue of just what were the limits of the Pope authority, with respect to binding and loosing the marriage ties, was a subject that evolved over the years. Generally, the limits on the Pope’s authority were in cases of Divine law, as opposed to Church law. An impediment of consanquinity in the first degree direct, for example, has always been declared to be ultra vires, beyond the power of any, including the Pope, to dispense. Other impediments have been considered to be ultra vires at one time, and within the Papal authority at others. See Kelly’s THE MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII, for details of this evolutionary process. But even the Pope did not possess absolute authority in these matters.

Henry’s best case, as Wolsey saw, would have been to point out the probable undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty lurking in Julius’ original dispensation to allow Henry and Catherine to wed. More details on this likely to follow, if this discussion continues (and no, the issue of whether Catherine and Arthur had consummated the marriage doesn’t help Catherine’s case at all; it hurts it).

Henry didn’t falsify his references. The problem was that they were not strong ones, and that because he took the Levitical tact, rather than the buried undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty, as Wolsey tried to advise. But in truth, neither case would have gotten him his decree of nullity. An emperor, Pope in hand, trumps a king.

If there is more waving of cartoons, and cardboard cutouts on this, I’ll try to reply. But I’ve done a lot of typing for someone who said this morning that he wasn’t able to do lengthy posts anymore.

Meanwhile, I’d suggest reading J. J. Scarisbrick’s magnificent bio of Hank, HENRY VIII. It isn’t pro-Henry. It’s pro-history. And, for even more mind boggling detail on how the system worked, Kelly’s book, mentioned above.

GKC
 
Do Catholics despise Anglicans? Gosh I hope not! But then I am Catholic now, having converted from Episcopalian.

But I would hope that being Anglican isn’t enough of a “GRAVE” offense to cause ANYONE to despise them!
 
On paragraph one you are correct. It was some digging I did on the ICAN Communion and a question I posted to EWTN regarding apostolic succession. This issue was why the CEC and the former CEC priest introduced the Costa lines form the ICAN into the CEC.

2nd paragraph…oops. I shold have said ancient Anglican Church. No…I did not just create a new communion. But why not, all I would have to do is introduce the Costa lines and off we go. 😃

North
Shucks. All that typing for naught.

I have a suspicion I might (maybe) know that former CEC priest.

GKC
 
Forgive me but your reply lacks charity. By responding with hyperbole you are no different than Protestant fudamentalists and others who do not like the RCC responding that (to use your words) the Catholic Church with all of her “nice cathedrals and boy choirs is washing the outside of the cup. Whitewashed sepulchres”. Inside it is seething with a history of deceitful practices such as selling indulgences, pieces of the true cross, corrupt and evil popes, murder, adulterous Bishops and Cardinals, gay clergy living with other men and tolerated pederasty. Collusion between the Church and evil dictatorships for gain of the Church. Pagan practices corrupting the Catholic Church in South American countries blended with the gospel. The RCC is apostate and …and yada yada.

Even if I used your line and said that was spoken because as you said “I love”, would you not find that unjust and over the top.

{PS I certainly do not believe the Catholic Church should be characterized like that NOR in Christian Charity do I believe the integrity of the Anglican Church should be so characterized. There are MANY things in each church’s history to cause us to hang our head in shame. Heck…that is why the Holy Father has acknoweldged some of the problems and apologized for the Churches actions}. Yea…JP the Great (what a witness) 👍

North
The reply lacks history, too.

GKC
 
The reply lacks history, too.

GKC
Absolutely correct! It was a parody of her response and use of hyperbole to bash Anglicans out of “love”.

You are astute 😃 Are you an Episcopalian
 
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