Do Catholics eat

[mr_foster]

Jesus established a Church, and this Church has authority. In the Bible, the faithful Christians are to respect the Elders of the Church who oversees the flock.

Wrong… the church does not have authority. Christ is the authority. The doctrine of Christ and his apostles aka the new testament is the authority over ther church. Elders oversee the flock and keep it in line with that doctrine

 

[rlg94086]

Jesus established a Church, and this Church has authority. In the Bible, the faithful Christians are to respect the Elders of the Church who oversees the flock.

Wrong… the church does not have authority. Christ is the authority. The doctrine of Christ and his apostles aka the new testament is the authority over ther church. Elders oversee the flock and keep it in line with that doctrine

The thing is…you have no authority. Your personal interpretation of Holy Scripture is of no value.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus established a Church, and this Church has authority. In the Bible, the faithful Christians are to respect the Elders of the Church who oversees the flock.

Wrong… the church does not have authority. Christ is the authority. The doctrine of Christ and his apostles aka the new testament is the authority over ther church. Elders oversee the flock and keep it in line with that doctrine

Your interpretation is incorrect.

III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are “ambassadors” for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ’s mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.)

Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#apostolic-III

 

[jpusateri]

Jesus established a Church, and this Church has authority. In the Bible, the faithful Christians are to respect the Elders of the Church who oversees the flock.

Wrong… the church does not have authority. Christ is the authority. The doctrine of Christ and his apostles aka the new testament is the authority over ther church. Elders oversee the flock and keep it in line with that doctrine

But you are equating “Jesus said it explicitly” with “doctrine”

 

[mr_foster]

Your interpretation is incorrect.

III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are “ambassadors” for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ’s mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.)

Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html#apostolic-III

be careful, I did say to obey the doctrine of the apostles. those other books you listed arent in the bible. Everything else you listed i agree with. For instance the Sirach. that’s obviously not in one accord with the teaching of the apostles. A priest is not a position in Christ’s church. Everyone in Christ’s church is a priest. There are elders (pastors, bishops, overseers) which have qualifications there are deacons which have qualifications, but there are no priest. Priest are in the catholic church not in Christ Church.
And please don’t give me the priest and elders are the same argument because a Priest doesen’t meet the basic qualifications of being an elder who must not only be married but he must also have children and rule his house well.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes the catholic church forbids priest to marry

Actually, the Church chooses not to ordain married men, or men who think they may marry at some point in the future, and we abstain from meat only on Fridays and Ash Wednesday; not all of the time. No one who is studying for the priesthood is ever caught off guard by the fact that he can’t get married after Ordination (neither can Deacons, by the way - if a Deacon’s wife dies, he must remain single for the rest of his life) - he made a choice to remain single before he even knew he was going to be accepted at Seminary.

and it commands that members abstain from meats during lent.

Surely anyone can live without meat one day of the week. The Canadian food guide recommends that we not eat more than three or four meals a week where the main course is meat. There are other, healthier ways to get protein.

 

[jmcrae]

And please don’t give me the priest and elders are the same argument because a Priest doesen’t meet the basic qualifications of being an elder who must not only be married but he must also have children and rule his house well.

St. Paul was a Bishop of the Church, and yet, he was never married - therefore, what St. Paul meant was not that Bishops are required to be married once; rather, that they ought not to be married more than once. “Never” is less than “once” so “never” is also okay.

Over time it became the discipline of the Church to ordain only single men, because they are more mobile and have more time to devote to their duties, and I think even St. Paul alludes to the fact that single people are more apt to be devoted to the Lord than married people, because they are less distracted.

 

[mr_foster]

The apostle Paul was an apostle

 

[jmcrae]

The apostle Paul was an apostle

Yes, indeed - and the Apostles were the Church’s first Bishops - in fact, all of our Bishops trace their Ordination historically in a straight line back to the Apostles.

 

[LilyM]

be careful, I did say to obey the doctrine of the apostles. those other books you listed arent in the bible. Everything else you listed i agree with. For instance the Sirach. that’s obviously not in one accord with the teaching of the apostles. A priest is not a position in Christ’s church. Everyone in Christ’s church is a priest. There are elders (pastors, bishops, overseers) which have qualifications there are deacons which have qualifications, but there are no priest. Priest are in the catholic church not in Christ Church.
And please don’t give me the priest and elders are the same argument because a Priest doesen’t meet the basic qualifications of being an elder who must not only be married but he must also have children and rule his house well.

MUST be married? Not a bit of it. The only requirement is that an elder CANNOT be married MORE than once. Nothing at all says that an elder **must **be married.

By the way, if you’re going to be at all consistent then forbidding remarriage (upon widowhood) of your elders is every bit as wrong as forbidding first marriage of our priests. I don’t see anything in the verse on ‘forbidding marriage’ that implies that forbidding remarriage is any better.

In any event St Paul said better for everyone who can do so to remain celibate (unmarried) as he had - is his Apostolic example not worth following or his Apostolic counsel on this issue as binding as any other?

Did Paul not do everything our priests do in spite of his celibacy - AND everything that any elder can or does do? Was he not able to administer all of the sacraments as well as any Elder?

Actually better, since there’s no requirement that your elders have hands laid upon them, and not having had this they have no authority to lay hands upon another. Whereas Paul had the other Apostles’ own hands laid upon him.

 

[mr_foster]

Yes, indeed - and the Apostles were the Church’s first Bishops - in fact, all of our Bishops trace their Ordination historically in a straight line back to the Apostles.

The apostles were not bishops and the bishops are not apostles. Their purpose in the church is not the same. For instance
Apostles traveled from church to church and they had authority in all church locations, whereas the bishops were to be in each congregation.
Paul was not an Bishop, nor is he EVER referred to as such anywhere in the bible. However Paul, the apostle was very clear about the the qualificatoins of an elder. He meust be married and he must have children.

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Also notice here that, contrary to your interpretation, The “one wife” is not in the context only in context of a limit, it’s a qalification. How can one have children without a wife. This passage also clearly states the reason that a bishop must have his wife and children in subjection. So I’m sorry my friend but you are wrong, and the bible is right. Priest are NOT elders or bishops. They don’t meet the qualifications.

 

[Steve40]

Jesus established a Church, and this Church has authority. In the Bible, the faithful Christians are to respect the Elders of the Church who oversees the flock.

Wrong… the church does not have authority. Christ is the authority. The doctrine of Christ and his apostles aka the new testament is the authority over ther church. Elders oversee the flock and keep it in line with that doctrine

The Church is the Body of Christ so the Church does have authority. All bodies have a hyerachie. Protestant churches don’t have a body. Get in to the Bark of Peter before it is too late.

 

[mr_foster]

Nothing at all says that an elder must be married.

perhaps you haven’t read this verse.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

A bishop MUST be blameless
A bishop MUST be the husband of one wife
A bishop MUST be vigilant
A bishop MUST be sober
A bishop MUST be of good behavior
A bishop MUST be given to hospitality
A bishop MUST be apt to teach

How plain does it have to be?

okay how about this

to collect your prize money you must buy a winning ticket, write one letter to the prize commission, arrive between 9 am and 5 pm, and be over 18 years old.

I’m sure you can understand that. Suely you MUST understand how a comma works.

 

[mr_foster]

The Church is the Body of Christ so the Church does have authority. All bodies have a hyerachie. Protestant churches don’t have a body. Get in to the Bark of Peter before it is too late.

What?!
Does your body have authority, or does your head have authority?
A body has authority… that’s flat out rediculous. I’ve never heard or read the term the “bark of Peter”. please give me book chapter and verse for that one

Ephesians 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 1:21-23 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:22-24 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:17-19 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)

 

[jmcrae]

What?!
Does your body have authority, or does your head have authority?
A body has authority… that’s flat out rediculous. I’ve never heard or read the term the “bark of Peter”. please give me book chapter and verse for that one.

It’s “barque,” meaning, a sea-going vessel.

We find it in I Peter 3, and again in II Peter 2.

Ephesians 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

Ephesians 1:21-23 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (in Context) Ephesians 5 (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And again - That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

 

[Linda_Marie]

You’d need to check with the UK Bishop’s Conference to find out what the norm is for Fridays outside of Lent.

Lucky for us Aussies our lovely Cardinal Pell will always put out a notice before Ash Wednesday each year reminding us all of the obligations to fast and abstain during Lent. He always sets out the rule (same as the US) for the other Fridays of the year at the same time. So we all know, unless we deliberately don’t pay attention, what our obligations are.

Thank you, Lily. I asked one of our priests to find this out for me but, after 2 months, he said that he could not find an answer but believed that it was the same as for the USA. I checked on the ACBC website and could not find anything so I decided to follow the advice given by the USCCB that it was highly recommended to abstain from meat every Friday. Interestingly, I have found that it takes a greater effort of will to abstain when it is only recommended and not required, and perversely, that on any other day, I may not eat meat just because I don’t feel like it, but when I choose to deliberately not eat meat, I crave it.

Also, this might be a somewhat legalistic question but if you were on vacation and were visiting a country where the Bishops had not issued an indult on Friday abstention (are there any?), would you be under the authority of the local bishop and required to abstain or under your own bishop and not? Is there anyplace we can find out where indults have been issued and where they have not?

 

[jmcrae]

Also, this might be a somewhat legalistic question but if you were on vacation and were visiting a country where the Bishops had not issued an indult on Friday abstention (are there any?), would you be under the authority of the local bishop and required to abstain or under your own bishop and not? Is there anyplace we can find out where indults have been issued and where they have not?

I’m going from memory here, but as I recall, when laws differ, we are bound by the laws of the place where we woke up that morning.

So, if you were travelling from Canada to Mexico, (you woke up in Canada, and arrived in Mexico in time for dinner) you would eat a vegetarian or fish dinner, but if you were there for over a week, then the following Friday, when you woke up in Mexico, and had dinner in Mexico, you could have meat for dinner, since Mexicans don’t have the law of abstinence from meat on Fridays.

 

[LilyM]

I’m going from memory here, but as I recall, when laws differ, we are bound by the laws of the place where we woke up that morning.

So, if you were travelling from Canada to Mexico, (you woke up in Canada, and arrived in Mexico in time for dinner) you would eat a vegetarian or fish dinner, but if you were there for over a week, then the following Friday, when you woke up in Mexico, and had dinner in Mexico, you could have meat for dinner, since Mexicans don’t have the law of abstinence from meat on Fridays.

Canada requires abstinence?

What a headache - especially for travellers. The easiest thing is just to abstain on Fridays no matter where you are, eh?

 

[mr_foster]

It’s “barque,” meaning, a sea-going vessel.

We find it in I Peter 3, and again in II Peter 2.

That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

And again - That’s the Catholic Church, as is made abundantly clear in Matthew 16:18-19.

Abundantly clear huh. lol The “Catholic church” cannot be found anywhere in the entire Bible. Not once, including Matthew 16:18-19. What your reading about is the Church of Christ my friend. It started in Acts 2:38-47. The More you read about it, the more you’ll realize how different it is in comparison to the Catholic Church. As it was said earlier the church is the Body of Christ.

Col 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church”

The Church of Christ. see how simple it is.

Check Romans 16:16

The Church is the body of Christ and the wife of Christ so it wears his name.

If the Catholic Church was the church being mentioned in Matthew, we would’ve read about going to confession with priest, we would have read about cardinals, and nuns, we would have read about lent, we would have read about praying to Mary and voting the dead as saints, we would have read about babies being baptized, we would have read about Peter being called a pope, we may have read about thousands of little alter boys being raped by priest, but we don’t read about any of these things. None of the those things are characteristics of the church mentioned in the bible.

In Matthew 16:18 “Jesus said that upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

He said nothing about a Catholic Church
The church was built on Peter’s confession, that Jesus is the Son of God. That is what the entire bible is all about.

 

[mr_foster]

Thank you, Lily. I asked one of our priests to find this out for me but, after 2 months, he said that he could not find an answer but believed that it was the same as for the USA. I checked on the ACBC website and could not find anything so I decided to follow the advice given by the USCCB that it was highly recommended to abstain from meat every Friday. Interestingly, I have found that it takes a greater effort of will to abstain when it is only recommended and not required, and perversely, that on any other day, I may not eat meat just because I don’t feel like it, but when I choose to deliberately not eat meat, I crave it.

Also, this might be a somewhat legalistic question but if you were on vacation and were visiting a country where the Bishops had not issued an indult on Friday abstention (are there any?), would you be under the authority of the local bishop and required to abstain or under your own bishop and not? Is there anyplace we can find out where indults have been issued and where they have not?

I got a better idea check the bible?
What does the bible say about friday lent?

oh wait it dosen’t say anything about lent