do Catholics focus more on suffering than non Catholics?

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God is telling me, perhaps not everyone, but ME, that this is wrong and that I will grow closer to him without doing this… As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says at one point, we must follow our concience, not someone else’s, not the saints’, not billy bob’s, OURS… and in matters such as this, my individual conscience is telling me not to inflict physical pain upon my body because it’s just down-right unhealthy.

We have differing opinions on HOW far to go… This is mine, and I think God is pleased with it and values it.
Perhaps you are not called to certain things, but I think again, forgive me, that what you have said is somewhat misguided, if I understand you correctly. You are equating God with your conscience, which is not the case at all. Your conscience is only useful so far as it is properly formed, and part of conversion is forming your conscience according to the teachings of God through the Church (and that would be the saints when they agree). We do not have perfect consciences. We are called to develop them. When our “consciences” disagree with the Church, we work on them and deeper understanding – and Faith, especially Faith.

Now, to see how ridiculous it is to think that all self inflicted pain is wrong, all we have to do is look at a preganant woman. She is in self inflicted pain. What does the pain do? It gives birth to a child.

Look at a runner. He runs for miles. His chest hurts. But he wins the race. Sound like scripture again? Yes it does.

Look at a body builder, his muscles pain him, and they get stronger. A boxer, he enjoys the sport, it’s painful, but he doesn’t mind, it even makes it more of a sport for him.

A soldier, goes through basic training. A doctor, gives you medication. You pinch yourself to wake yourself up late at night!

You give up some sin or another. . It hurts. God made the world have pain in it for us, He didn’t create a world without it. Anesthesia exists. He could have done it. He didn’t want to, it wasn’t a good idea for us not to feel pain.

This moral equation with self inflicted pain as a morally bad thing, or psychologically bad thing at all times, when it is for the sake of God, is nonsense. The world accepts self inflicted pain for every worldly reason, but do it for God, and you must be mentally unbalanced.

To say this is not the way of the Cross, or the saints. We must beware of deceptions about tradition.

Now, some people will go to a spiritual director, some people do not need to because they are spiritually mature enough, and frankly good spiritual directors are rare. There is a proper, spirit for mortification, and an improper one. The improper one would be carnal, or something like the SI addictions we see these days, people with that should not do it because they cannot properly. Healthier people can. Everyone who attempts some of the more difficult mortifications should pray and make certain it is done with a proper intention.

We do not need extremity, but we do not need a pretense of fraility and foolish exaggeration. If a runner, a boxer, or similar can do the equivalent, you can do it too. Lying on a harder bed, wearing something that painfully pinches you, or is rough and scratchy, eating food you don’t like, these are such trivialaties, that only the softest of hedonists could not begin to approach some of them, and perform them at least briefly for set times. And they and similar are key to freeing people from what is called the ‘slavery to the world, the flesh, and the devil’ that is so important to a successful afterlife and growing relationship with God, rather than failure due to attachments to what is not of God. 🙂

We should consider how best to use our bodies for the sake of God, and yes maintaining their health for the longest and best amount is generally part of that (the soul is more important and can override that), but coddling is not. 🙂 We maintain our bodies for the sake of God’s service, not for their own sake, because dust they are and dust they shall return to. We shall not be taking them with us at the end.
 
Now, to see how ridiculous it is to think that all self inflicted pain is wrong, all we have to do is look at a preganant woman. She is in self inflicted pain. What does the pain do? It gives birth to a child.

Look at a runner. He runs for miles. His chest hurts. But he wins the race. Sound like scripture again? Yes it does.

Look at a body builder, his muscles pain him, and they get stronger. A boxer, he enjoys the sport, it’s painful, but he doesn’t mind, it even makes it more of a sport for him.

A soldier, goes through basic training. A doctor, gives you medication. You pinch yourself to wake yourself up late at night!

We maintain our bodies for the sake of God’s service, not for their own sake, because dust they are and dust they shall return to. We shall not be taking them with us at the end.
Brilliant analogies! Thank you !
 
Perhaps you are not called to certain things, but I think again, forgive me, that what you have said is somewhat misguided, if I understand you correctly. You are equating God with your conscience, which is not the case at all. Your conscience is only useful so far as it is properly formed, and part of conversion is forming your conscience according to the teachings of God through the Church (and that would be the saints when they agree). We do not have perfect consciences. We are called to develop them. When our “consciences” disagree with the Church, we work on them and deeper understanding – and Faith, especially Faith.

Now, to see how ridiculous it is to think that all self inflicted pain is wrong, all we have to do is look at a preganant woman. She is in self inflicted pain. What does the pain do? It gives birth to a child.

Look at a runner. He runs for miles. His chest hurts. But he wins the race. Sound like scripture again? Yes it does.

Look at a body builder, his muscles pain him, and they get stronger. A boxer, he enjoys the sport, it’s painful, but he doesn’t mind, it even makes it more of a sport for him.

A soldier, goes through basic training. A doctor, gives you medication. You pinch yourself to wake yourself up late at night!

You give up some sin or another. . It hurts. God made the world have pain in it for us, He didn’t create a world without it. Anesthesia exists. He could have done it. He didn’t want to, it wasn’t a good idea for us not to feel pain.

This moral equation with self inflicted pain as a morally bad thing, or psychologically bad thing at all times, when it is for the sake of God, is nonsense. The world accepts self inflicted pain for every worldly reason, but do it for God, and you must be mentally unbalanced.

To say this is not the way of the Cross, or the saints. We must beware of deceptions about tradition.

Now, some people will go to a spiritual director, some people do not need to because they are spiritually mature enough, and frankly good spiritual directors are rare. There is a proper, spirit for mortification, and an improper one. The improper one would be carnal, or something like the SI addictions we see these days, people with that should not do it because they cannot properly. Healthier people can. Everyone who attempts some of the more difficult mortifications should pray and make certain it is done with a proper intention.

We do not need extremity, but we do not need a pretense of fraility and foolish exaggeration. If a runner, a boxer, or similar can do the equivalent, you can do it too. Lying on a harder bed, wearing something that painfully pinches you, or is rough and scratchy, eating food you don’t like, these are such trivialaties, that only the softest of hedonists could not begin to approach some of them, and perform them at least briefly for set times. And they and similar are key to freeing people from what is called the ‘slavery to the world, the flesh, and the devil’ that is so important to a successful afterlife and growing relationship with God, rather than failure due to attachments to what is not of God. 🙂

We should consider how best to use our bodies for the sake of God, and yes maintaining their health for the longest and best amount is generally part of that (the soul is more important and can override that), but coddling is not. 🙂 We maintain our bodies for the sake of God’s service, not for their own sake, because dust they are and dust they shall return to. We shall not be taking them with us at the end.
I do not understand how any of the analogies above are good ones.

You get preganant but do you purposely create pain when you’re giving birth? Of course not! It is a natural result of giving birth, it hurts! It’s Normal!

Does a runner intentionally hurt his chest while he’s running? Nope again. Just happens sometimes and a doctor would advise you to stop running if it did.

Would you intentionally cause yourself to have a heart attack if you could? I hope not!

Does the body builder intentionally cause himself to hurt when he lifts? Nope, just a natural response to lifting.

The reason that it may be looked upon by some health professionals as disordered to self-inflict pain for God is because it isn’t NATURAL. All of the examples you stated above are natural results of a particular action. It simply isn’t natural to hurt yourself. It’s like saying that you start praying to God and then your chest starts to hurt! Probably doesn’t happen for most people.

Giving birth results in natural pain.

Living our earthly lives naturally involves painful experiences because we are in a fallen world.

There is a difference between something naturally occuring and us creating it!

Again, just because some saints self-inflicted pain does not mean that all of us need to. Many of those saints lived in different times with different views on mental health and physical health in general. How do you know that today’s mental health professionals are wrong? Have you not considered the possibility that the Church continues to be perfected, and this perfection is occuring as we learn more, whether through science, health discoveries, and so forth?

Just because some saints performed it, does not necessarily mean that we should. Just because the Church prosecuted heretics and non-Catholics in the past does not mean we should go out and kill our fellow protestants. Church DOCTRINE is sound, but what of the individual practices? That’s when our relationship with God comes in! As we examine our concience, we hear God speaking.

Our bodies are temples of the holy spirit.

God Bless You.
 
Perhaps you are not called to certain things, but I think again, forgive me, that what you have said is somewhat misguided, if I understand you correctly. You are equating God with your conscience, which is not the case at all. Your conscience is only useful so far as it is properly formed, and part of conversion is forming your conscience according to the teachings of God through the Church (and that would be the saints when they agree). We do not have perfect consciences. We are called to develop them. When our “consciences” disagree with the Church, we work on them and deeper understanding – and Faith, especially Faith.

Now, to see how ridiculous it is to think that all self inflicted pain is wrong, all we have to do is look at a preganant woman. She is in self inflicted pain. What does the pain do? It gives birth to a child.

Look at a runner. He runs for miles. His chest hurts. But he wins the race. Sound like scripture again? Yes it does.

Look at a body builder, his muscles pain him, and they get stronger. A boxer, he enjoys the sport, it’s painful, but he doesn’t mind, it even makes it more of a sport for him.

A soldier, goes through basic training. A doctor, gives you medication. You pinch yourself to wake yourself up late at night!

You give up some sin or another. . It hurts. God made the world have pain in it for us, He didn’t create a world without it. Anesthesia exists. He could have done it. He didn’t want to, it wasn’t a good idea for us not to feel pain.

This moral equation with self inflicted pain as a morally bad thing, or psychologically bad thing at all times, when it is for the sake of God, is nonsense. The world accepts self inflicted pain for every worldly reason, but do it for God, and you must be mentally unbalanced.

To say this is not the way of the Cross, or the saints. We must beware of deceptions about tradition.

Now, some people will go to a spiritual director, some people do not need to because they are spiritually mature enough, and frankly good spiritual directors are rare. There is a proper, spirit for mortification, and an improper one. The improper one would be carnal, or something like the SI addictions we see these days, people with that should not do it because they cannot properly. Healthier people can. Everyone who attempts some of the more difficult mortifications should pray and make certain it is done with a proper intention.

We do not need extremity, but we do not need a pretense of fraility and foolish exaggeration. If a runner, a boxer, or similar can do the equivalent, you can do it too. Lying on a harder bed, wearing something that painfully pinches you, or is rough and scratchy, eating food you don’t like, these are such trivialaties, that only the softest of hedonists could not begin to approach some of them, and perform them at least briefly for set times. And they and similar are key to freeing people from what is called the ‘slavery to the world, the flesh, and the devil’ that is so important to a successful afterlife and growing relationship with God, rather than failure due to attachments to what is not of God. 🙂

We should consider how best to use our bodies for the sake of God, and yes maintaining their health for the longest and best amount is generally part of that (the soul is more important and can override that), but coddling is not. 🙂 We maintain our bodies for the sake of God’s service, not for their own sake, because dust they are and dust they shall return to. We shall not be taking them with us at the end.
The mother giving birth is NOT experiencing self-inflicted pain. To equate a natural event like childbirth with flails and kneeling on gravel is not a good analogy.

I still believe the Church cautions against self-inflicted pain. You can hold up the saints as an example but not every person can force himself into a mold according to his own will, which may or may not be distorted.
 
The mother giving birth is NOT experiencing self-inflicted pain. To equate a natural event like childbirth with flails and kneeling on gravel is not a good analogy.

I still believe the Church cautions against self-inflicted pain. You can hold up the saints as an example but not every person can force himself into a mold according to his own will, which may or may not be distorted.
Well put, the analogy does not seem to make much sense…
 
Well put, the analogy does not seem to make much sense…
I agree as well…and besides after a boxer gets through all that pain he wins the belt and a lot of money. The runner might feel pain, but he also gets an adrenaline rush. The pain is a means to a worldly end. Where as self-mortification, done correctly and only with spiritual supervision is all about God. I think it is something that a person is called to do as the saints were; and there is a fine line between self-mutilation and self-mortication.
 
Well, I do not have much more to say here, I have said what I have already said, but pray and think on it, read about the spiritual lives of the saints.

Christ Himself did it, so He is the example. 😃

We live by supernatural grace, we do not live what the world calls natural lives, but we do live lives that are natural to those who are closer to their true selves, that is, closer to God and who they were made to be. That is the most natural one can be, to be in union with Christ.

In the Old Testament we have Job, who does not understand, but bears His sufferings because God causes them. Now we understand, it is to be like Christ that suffering is given us, and there is no greater gift in this life – it prepares the way and makes a greater Heaven for the next.

"Our blessed Lord was innocent, and pure from all stain; yet He endured torments greater than any of the martyrs. His suffering was voluntary, and, if it be lawful to say so, superfluous, for the least of His agonies was more than sufficient to redeem the world. So again, saints who never lost their baptismal innocence, have voluntarily punished themselves, and endured torments of incredible severity. . .

It was heroic charity that led innocent souls like S. Aloysius and Cardinal Baronius to punish their bodies, and tender women like S. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi and S. Rose of Lima to put crowns on their heads that drew blood from their pierced flesh. It would be tedious to enumerate the penances and strange austerities of the servants of God, which they willingly underwent for their own sins, and in reparation for the wickedness of others, who thought not of God and His holy laws which they were daily transgressing. The contents of these volumes will supply abundant illustration of this matter."

Pope Benedict XIV, on Heroic Virtue

Jesus Christ, when He redeemed us with plentiful redemption, took not away the pains and sorrows which in such large proportion are woven together in the web of our mortal life. He transformed them into motives of virtue and occasions of merit: and no man can hope for eternal reward unless he follow in the blood-stained footprints of his Saviour. " we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him." Christ’s labors and sufferings, accepted of His own free-will, have marvellously sweetened all suffering and all labor. And not only by His example, but by His grace and by the hope held forth of everlasting recompense, has He made pain and grief more easy to endure; for that which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory. "

Therefore those whom fortune favors are warned that freedom from sorrow and abundance of earthly riches are no warrant for the bliss that shall never end, but rather are obstacles; that the rich should tremble at the threatenings of Jesus Christ, threatenings so unwonted in the mouth of Our Lord and that a most strict account must be given to the Supreme Judge for all we possess.

Pope Leo XIII
 

A better way to think about this for new Catholics (or those who aren’t familiar with the teaching) is to consider spiritual mortification. That can be thought of as yielding your will to another. So, you watch the movie your friend picks, eat the dinner your spouse cooks, play Candyland with your daughter–all without complaining or even showing your dislike or impatience.

Sometimes, eating Mexican for the 3rd night in a row can be more redemptive than fasting. Or not buying the latest cute outfit than wearing a hairshirt. ‘Practicing’ in this way can indeed make us better able to “serenely bear the trials and tribulations which will come to all of us anyway”–which is a very worthy goal!
Not meaning to divert the thread, but this post begged for an Amen! (are my Pentecostal roots showing?:D)

Check out the Litany of Humility. Never viewed that as a suffering kinda thing, but it seems to fit right in with what you’re talking about.
 
Well put, the analogy does not seem to make much sense…
Ever heard the slogan of 'fitness freaks’…“No pain, no gain” ? Why would you say the analogy makes no sense? What are the means to the*** end?*** And to what end? Now, to*** which***** “end” *should we be striving *?
I don’t think it can get any clearer than that! God Bless.
 
Not meaning to divert the thread, but this post begged for an Amen! (are my Pentecostal roots showing?:D)

Check out the Litany of Humility. Never viewed that as a suffering kinda thing, but it seems to fit right in with what you’re talking about.
Yes, this begs an Amen. 🙂 It reminds me of a saint who ate whatever his mother put before him, and told her he liked best whatever she gave him. Till the end of her life, she never knew which foods he actually liked or disliked.

:eek:
 
Ever heard the slogan of 'fitness freaks’…“No pain, no gain” ? Why would you say the analogy makes no sense? What are the means to the*** end?*** And to what end? Now, to*** which***** “end” *should we be striving *?
I don’t think it can get any clearer than that! God Bless.
Aw yes the ole’ no pain no gain…as my dear Mom would say as she brushed the tangles out of my 5 yr old hair. After which I’d end up in tears…which then I got…‘Oh just lift it up’. This is the sort of wonderful compassion I grew up with. I grew into a person with that no pain no gain attitude without an ounce of compassion. I think it can back fire badly; I don’t think that’s how it’s supposed to work.
 
Aw yes the ole’ no pain no gain…as my dear Mom would say as she brushed the tangles out of my 5 yr old hair. After which I’d end up in tears…which then I got…‘Oh just lift it up’. This is the sort of wonderful compassion I grew up with. I grew into a person with that no pain no gain attitude without an ounce of compassion. I think it can back fire badly; I don’t think that’s how it’s supposed to work.
Only I was referring to the fitness freaks as an analogy for those who said it didn’t make sense to compare their self inflicted pain-used for worldly and “vain-gain”-with our self inflicted mortification-for spiritual gain.(in union, of course, with His pain-our gain ;))
With regard to your beloved Mother, she must have heard that from her mother, who heard it from her mother…who… See how holy you have become from generations of salvific suffering?😛
 
Ever heard the slogan of 'fitness freaks’…“No pain, no gain” ? Why would you say the analogy makes no sense? What are the means to the*** end?*** And to what end? Now, to*** which***** “end” *should we be striving *?
I don’t think it can get any clearer than that! God Bless.
The dispute here is about self-infliction of pain, not the means to an end argument.

Yes, we lift weights to get stronger.
Women get pregnant to have a baby.
Doctors give you medicine so that you can get better.

My question is, how do any of these things involve self-infliction of pain???

We don’t cause ourselves pain as we lift. We lift and naturally we feel some discomfort. We don’t do it ourselves.

Women have a baby and it hurts. The woman doesn’t force herself to feel pain.

We pray to God to strengthen our faith. We read scripture. We serve others. These make sense. Are not THESE means to an end? And do any of them involve physical PAIN?

I absolutely do not understand where the notion of this even came up in the Catholic Church. When Jesus says, “you must take up your cross and follow me,” I don’t think this means to actually crucify ourselves or cause ourselves physical harm. I just couldn’t imagine Jesus saying, “start whipping yourselves and practice self-flagellation and come follow me.” Doesn’t sound like Jesus or his gospel message, especially when Jesus is healing people left and right when they are suffering. Would Jesus ever want us to cause pain on ourselves?

If we want to truly serve Christ and others why don’t we actually do that? Rejoice always. Don’t go around beating yourself. Stop wasting your time on you and go help others. That’s the gospel message!
 
I agree that Christ’s followers must suffer in this world as Christ explained, but I must disagree that our suffering will purge any of our sin. Christ did that purging of His follower’s sins “by Himself” as Hebrews points out in more than one verse.
You are right about that. It isn’t suffering in of it’s self that has redemptive value. It isn’t our suffering that is meritorious.
It’s Him suffering in us and with us that makes our suffering like His suffering, redemptive.
 
If we want to truly serve Christ and others why don’t we actually do that? Rejoice always. Don’t go around beating yourself. Stop wasting your time on you and go help others. That’s the gospel message!
With respect, friend, you haven’t the understanding to expound on the topic. There are deeply rooted implications regarding suffering throughout salvation history, that your oversimplification and subjective distortions totally miss.The lives of the Saints are a good resource for your perusal. God bless you.
 
Is there the equivolent of a place like this in protestantism?

Lough Derg

This is hard core stuff 😃

3 days of fasting apart from black coffee and a slice of dry toast, 24 hours during that 3 days without sleep, and you walk around the stations outside barefoot.

👍
 
It isn’t suffering in of it’s self that has redemptive value. It isn’t our suffering that is meritorious.
It’s Him suffering in us and with us that makes our suffering like His suffering, redemptive.
I agree that the Lord Jesus is with believers as they suffer in this world, especially when that suffering is for His sake. It does not make sense that the Lord would actually continue suffering after He rose in glory. He declared “It is finished.”, so His time of humility, physical pain, and suffering ended with His death. He is the Lord of Glory now, never to actually physically suffer again Himself. He strengthens His own in their suffering and He can have empathy with them, having Himself also suffered more than all.
Redemptive suffering is something that happened only once on the Cross. Only Christ could suffer in such a manner and it required the shedding of His Blood unto death as part of that redemptive suffering for sin.
 
I agree that the Lord Jesus is with believers as they suffer in this world, especially when that suffering is for His sake. It does not make sense that the Lord would actually continue suffering after He rose in glory. He declared “It is finished.”, so His time of humility, physical pain, and suffering ended with His death. He is the Lord of Glory now, never to actually physically suffer again Himself. He strengthens His own in their suffering and He can have empathy with them, having Himself also suffered more than all.
Redemptive suffering is something that happened only once on the Cross. Only Christ could suffer in such a manner and it required the shedding of His Blood unto death as part of that redemptive suffering for sin.
That’s why you’re non-denominational, and not** Catholic**, dear friend!
Only the Catholic Faith has the fullness of Truth on suffering (and everything else:)), based on Scripture,** Tradition** and the Teaching Magisterium of the Church, that Jesus Christ founded on the** Rock of Peter**. But thanks for coming to CAF for this discussion. God bless you.
 
Redemptive suffering is something that happened only once on the Cross. Only Christ could suffer in such a manner and it required the shedding of His Blood unto death as part of that redemptive suffering for sin.
redemptive suffering is when we join our sufferings to His.* It doesn’t mean that HIs sufferings were not enough for our salvation*. It’s rather what St Paul talked about when he said:

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions,* for the sake of his body, which is the Church*. (Col. 1:24)

the question is, what is lacking? Didn’t Christ suffer unimaginable pain? yes, but see what is lacking is just one thing: our participation. Us carrying our own crosses and offering up our suffering for the sake of the Church. It’s STILL Christ’s sacrifice that saves us…it just needs to be applied to us somehow, and that is done by grace, through faith and good works done out of love for God (James 2 - faith lived out), etc.

here’s an article on redemptive suffering:
fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html

God bless 🙂
 
Saint Paul also said that no man harms his own flesh but cherishes and nurtures it.

Self-injury is dangerous and morally wrong. The average person can and should not achieve sainthood by deliberate self-damage.

Mortification in terms of ‘giving up’ or enduring is another thing altogether.
 
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