Do Catholics give Mary too high esteem?

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I do believe we’ve gotten off the original topic.
I wasn’t the one who got off topic.AllI I did was explain Swedenborg’s idea about Revelation 12:1.This topic is about Mary getting too much high esteem… It is out of misunderstanding of the Holy Word of God,that Mary is raise too high esteem.That is because the church does not believe the Word has a spiritual sense in it. They say the Word is Holy because God spoke it. You need to have an open mind, when you read Swedenborg’s writings. When you read with an open mind, peace and joy enters, because the angels are there to help you to understand.

Harry:wave:.
 
We have permanent monuments to historical figures in Washington D.C. that helped to “birth” a nation. No one ever seems to claim the Jefferson Memorial or Lincoln Monument is worshipping a graven image or too much esteem. Why so, then, with the Mother of God, the woman through whom He chose to enter this world?
 
So to answer the question, no, Catholics do not honor Mary too much. Nothing we could do could come close to the honor bestowed on her by God already.
I would say yes, Mary is honored too much by some Catholics. I don’t believe she is honored too often, but some devotion to Mary is disordered. As Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman said and I paraphrase “the issue with Catholic Marian devotion is that often times it is not properly ordered to Christ”. When Mary is worshiped, there is an issue and she is being honored too much.
 
Concerning the title of this thread: “Do Catholics give Mary too high esteem?”, whenever someone tells me that Catholics take the concept of honoring Mary too far, I always ask them, “Then tell me how far should we go? What are the ways that you, as a Christian, honor Mary?” I have yet to get a straight answer. As a matter-of-fact, I usually get no answer at all, and the people I’m speaking with act as if they had never considered it before (which is probably the case).

Most Protestants admit me to me that Mary is deserving of honor because she is the mother of Jesus. But that seems to be so much “lip service.” I’m a convert, and in my past experience as a Protestant (belonging to several different churches over many years), “honoring” Mary meant getting a school girl to dress up like her for the Christmas pageant, and then completely ignoring Mary until the next pageant rolls around. That hardly seems to do justice to the idea of true veneration.

Pax et Bonum,
-Fr. Read
That’s an interesting question Fr. Read… If posed to me I would answer that I pray the rosary and believe that Mary is to be venerated as the new Eve who said yes to God, is the Mother of God and first Christian.

I would stop short of saying that Mary is the “Mediatrix of All Graces” as the VII council fathers so purposefully did. I would stop short of saying that devotion to Mary is required for salvation. I would stop short of saying that “One day, through the rosary and the scapular, she will save the world” because Christ already saved the world and only God has that power. I would stop short of all of these excesses and disordered devotion.
 
We have permanent monuments to historical figures in Washington D.C. that helped to “birth” a nation. No one ever seems to claim the Jefferson Memorial or Lincoln Monument is worshipping a graven image or too much esteem. Why so, then, with the Mother of God, the woman through whom He chose to enter this world?
Really a straw man argument… When was the last time you saw someone praying to the either of those landmarks? And for the record, the statues aren’t permanent… nothing in this world is.
 
That’s an interesting question Fr. Read… If posed to me I would answer that I pray the rosary and believe that Mary is to be venerated as the new Eve who said yes to God, is the Mother of God and first Christian.

I would stop short of saying that Mary is the “Mediatrix of All Graces” as the VII council fathers so purposefully did. I would stop short of saying that devotion to Mary is required for salvation. I would stop short of saying that “One day, through the rosary and the scapular, she will save the world” because Christ already saved the world and only God has that power. I would stop short of all of these excesses and disordered devotion.
“He who is not awestruck by this Virgin’s spirit and who does not admire her soul is ignorant of how Great God is.”
(Peter Chrysologus/ Father of the Church)

The praises of the early Church Fathers and from the Saints say different. I have come across this “disordered love” of Mary a couple of times on here now, and spoke to my parish priest about it. I don’t know of his devotion too Mary, but I said something to him about disordered love, or giving Mary too much attention or love, and he said it sounded protestant. I went on to tell him I have studied True devotion for sometime and he instructed me to listen to St. Louis de Montfort and the Saints of the Church. From what they say we can never love or honor too much.

I would say calling Mary mediatrix of all graces, or that she is necessary for salvation is not “disordered love” but rather a lack of knowledge of where God has placed her…
 
I would say calling Mary mediatrix of all graces, or that she is necessary for salvation is not “disordered love” but rather a lack of knowledge of where God has placed her…
I re-read this and I was not clear, what I am saying is if you don’t agree with Mary having the title Mediatrix of all graces or that she is necessary for our salvation it comes from a lack of knowledge of where God has placed Her.
 
I re-read this and I was not clear, what I am saying is if you don’t agree with Mary having the title Mediatrix of all graces or that she is necessary for our salvation it comes from a lack of knowledge of where God has placed Her.
I’m sorry, but I’m with the Church on this one… If being with the Church means in have a ‘lack of knowledge’ as you say, then so be it.

Like I said in my post, I pray the rosary, hold Mary as the new Eve who said yes to God, Is the Mother of God and the first Christian…that’s pretty hefty. What I don’t do (which i have seen other do) is give Mary God-like status or treat her as divine. I think either you or I is confused on the words “too much”…I view it not as a quantity issue…pray to Mary, all day everyday. I think it is instead an issue of how we pray to Mary and the intention because as I said, I have witnessed abuses.
 
That’s an interesting question Fr. Read… If posed to me I would answer that I pray the rosary and believe that Mary is to be venerated as the new Eve who said yes to God, is the Mother of God and first Christian.

I would stop short of saying that Mary is the “Mediatrix of All Graces” as the VII council fathers so purposefully did. I would stop short of saying that devotion to Mary is required for salvation. I would stop short of saying that “One day, through the rosary and the scapular, she will save the world” because Christ already saved the world and only God has that power. I would stop short of all of these excesses and disordered devotion.
If I stopped short of all that, I would have to stop short of being a Catholic. God Bless, Memaw
 
If I stopped short of all that, I would have to stop short of being a Catholic. God Bless, Memaw
That would be on your own accord, not according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I’ll pray for you…
 
I’m sorry, but I’m with the Church on this one… If being with the Church means in have a ‘lack of knowledge’ as you say, then so be it.
I’m with the Church on this as well, in fact the Church does not hesitate to use the term “Mediatrix” when speaking of Mary. Past Popes have also used this term as well. Now I know of no document that suggests to refrain from using such term, if there is one could you please supply it.

Now it’s not a Dogma yet. Dogma takes time, we all know that from past experience. If it does become a Dogma, it will only show how united Mary’s heart is to Christ’s. Not “disordered love”

Your in my prayers
God Bless
 
I would stop short of saying that Mary is the “Mediatrix of All Graces” as the VII council fathers so purposefully did. I would stop short of saying that devotion to Mary is required for salvation.
it comes from a lack of knowledge of where God has placed Her.
So here Godisgood77 is referring to devotion to Mary as not being necessary to salvation.

De_Montfort, your response confused me. Do you mean to say that devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation or do you simply mean that Mary is necessary to salvation because she was the vehicle through which Christ entered the world.
 
I’m with the Church on this as well, in fact the Church does not hesitate to use the term “Mediatrix” when speaking of Mary. Past Popes have also used this term as well. Now I know of no document that suggests to refrain from using such term, if there is one could you please supply it.

Now it’s not a Dogma yet. Dogma takes time, we all know that from past experience. If it does become a Dogma, it will only show how united Mary’s heart is to Christ’s. Not “disordered love”

Your in my prayers
God Bless
Relative to the term Mediatrix…the Church in the Second Vatican Council did give Mary the title Mediatrix. However, I did not refer to that title. I mentioned “Mediatrix of All Graces” which neither at the Council or at any other time has the Church declared. In fact, the debate on this topic has been written about extensively and the title was very purposefully omitted. Subsequently, there was a Vatican committee created to explore this topic, I believe in the 80’s, that determined unanimously not to pursue declaring this a Dogma of the Church. I believe there is a petition that was worked up some years ago aimed a forwarding this movement that garnered only 7-8 million signatures.

Please understand me, I am not anti-Mariology. As I stated, I pray the rosary, I believe she is the new Eve who said yes, is the arc of the new covenant, was the first Christian and the Mother of God… I posted in this thread only to answer the original topic and to say that there are clearly Catholics that misrepresent the Church’s teaching on Mary. I stand firmly behind the Church’s teaching on the matter.
 
Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught.

The three titles Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, and Advocate are all used by the Magisterium, an indisputable sign of approval of this doctrine. Prior to Vatican II, the four Marian dogmas (her divine Maternity, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and Assumption) do not of themselves betoken any conspicuously ecclesial or “social” role of Mary. But during the Council we witnessed a “subtle shift” when Pope Paul proclaimed Mary as “Mother of the Church.” His words received a unique standing ovation. Then the Council annunciated in its own name Mary as “Mediatrix” - again, a title that by definition is more than strictly personal to her.

Significant also is the Council’s decision to include its tract on Mary in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium), rather than issuing it as an independent document or including it in any of the other fifteen documents. Quite clearly, then, the Council Fathers speak of an active collaboration of Mary in the work of the redemption and they illustrate this with the Eve/Mary parallel, found already in the writings of the sub-Apostolic Fathers, Saint Justin Martyr (+165), Irenaeus (+ after 193) and Tertullian (+ 220).

Pope Benedict XVI in his General Audience on Wednesday, March 30th, 2011 affirmed: “Redemption is offered to all human beings ‘in abundance’. And precisely because it is Christological, Alphonsian piety is also exquisitely Marian. Deeply devoted to Mary he illustrates her role in the history of salvation: an associate in the Redemption and Mediatrix of grace, Mother, Advocate and Queen.”
tinyurl.com/pzltlug
 
Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught.
The words Mediatrix of All Graces never appear in the document. Further, and as I mentioned earlier, there was a commission formed in the 90’s at the request of the Holy See to further examine this issue and it determined unanimously not to declare a new Dogma concerning Mary. This title has not received Vatican approval. If you have a reference stating otherwise please cite it…

From Lumen Gentium …
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for
there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave
himself a redemption for all”.(298)
 
To repeat:
Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught:
“By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)”
Notes:
(15) Cfr. Leo XIII, Epist. Encycl. Satis cognitum, 29 iun. 1896: *** 28 (1895-96) p. 738. Epist. Encycl. Caritatis studium, 25 iul. 1898: *** 31 (1898-99) p. 11. Pius XII, Nuntius radioph. Nell’alba, 24 dec. 1941: AAS 34 (1942) p. 21.
(16) Cfr. Pius XI, Litt. Encycl. Rerum Orientalium, 8 sept. 1928: AAS 20 (1928) p. 287. Pius XII, Litt. Encycl Orientalis Ecclesiae, 9 apr. 1944: AAS 36 (1944) p. 137

In Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer), 1987. John Paul II teaches that Jesus prepared His Mother to become for ALL people their "Mother in the order of Grace (39); this is because “Mary is united by a close and indissoluble bond” to Christ. (41). Thus Mary embraces each and every one in the Church, and embraces each and every one through the Church (47). This is from the Pope’s ordinary Magisterium.

That Mary is Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix of all Graces may not be a dogma, but both of these are well-founded teachings of the Catholic Church. Some saints have explicitly used these terms, and Popes (particularly Pope John Paul II) have clarified their meaning. Pope Benedict XVI was right. These terms are not found in the language of the Scriptures and of the Fathers. But so was the word “purgatory” not found. Therefore, while the Church might not elevate these teachings to the level of dogma, it is important that all Catholics realize that these Marian beliefs are solidly founded in Scriptures - provided, of course, that Mary’s role is properly understood as not being equal, but subordinate, to Christ’s work. Just as there is danger in glorifying Mary excessively by use of these titles, there is an equal danger - if we drop the use of these titles altogether - of not giving Mary the recognition that she deserves in the special role that she played in God’s plan of salvation.

Frank J Sheed, that doyen of the Catholic Evidence Guild, in his great Theology And Sanity, Sheed & Ward 1947, expresses the doctrine beautifully:
“As Christ represents humanity in the Redemptive Act, she represents humanity in the co-redemptive act. His suffering was the essential thing, and hers valuable only by derivation. His was the Passion, hers the Com-Passion. He was the Redeemer but the Church loves to call her Co-Redemptrix.” (Theology And Sanity, p 235).

Pope Benedict XV reaffirmed Mary as Co-Redemptrix in his Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica:
“Therefore, one can say, she [that is, the Blessed Virgin] redeemed with Christ the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter Inter soldalica, AAS 1918, 181.

The Second Vatican Council declared: “Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace. (Lumen Gentium, 61).

As Fr William G Most also affirms, Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See *Our Father’s Plan, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93]
 
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*)
Is there an official explanation as to what these terms entail/mean?
As Fr William G Most also affirms, Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62 (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See *Our Father’s Plan
, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93]

At face value it sounds like the bolded sentence is suggesting she is co-eternal, as in she was around before all things, existing outside the universe before it was even created. Is that what this is trying to say? What does that statement mean, and what does it not mean?

I’m not looking to busy you on my account so if you want to use your own words thats fine. I’m just looking for some understanding on where Mariology begins and ends.
 
It doesn’t mean that Mary was created before all time; it means that God always had the idea of creating her, and using her in the Incarnation process, as part of His plans for the universe before the universe was actually created.

(Although frankly, this isn’t saying much, as He probably planned you and me back then also. He exists in eternity, for goodness’ sake, so pretty much everything was already planned before the universe existed, just by the nature of God being eternal.)

Our God is a plan-ahead God.
 
For Semangelof

ADVOCATE. A title of Christ, who is called “our Advocate with the Father” (I John 2:1). Also the title of the Holy Spirit, sometimes translated Paraclete, whom Christ promised to send to his followers (John 14:16). Christ is our Advocate who defends the cause of Christian believers against their accuser, the devil (Revelation 12). The Holy Spirit is our Advocate as “the person called to one’s side” to strengthen and plead our cause, implying that we effectually seek his aid. (Etym. Latin advocatus, an advocate, one “called upon” to plead.)

**AUX. **Auxilium, auxilio–help, with the help of. (Auxiliatrix)

MEDIATRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary’s Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
Modern Catholic Dictionary, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., [Dictionary of Terms - A]](Dictionary of Terms - A])

Adjutrix = female helper or assistant (dictionaries)
 
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