Do Catholics ignore these scriptures?

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide;3033161:

But the problem is that you have to trust that the bishops of the ancient Church judged correctly when the chose the 27 new testament books and said these are scripture. The scriptures can not be divorced from tradition and the Church. There is a bond between them that can not be broken and if it is broken than none of it makes any sense.

I do not agree with your presupposition. I think God’s will was done. It was not a human thing at all.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Now we’re getting somewhere at least. So anyway, what are you basing your belief that the Bible is absolute truth in?

I have answered this already time after time.
It changed my life. I was an atheist.
I saw the change of my friends who became Christians.
I accepted Jesus rose from the dead and I became a Christian.
I read scholarship and decided the liberals had it all wrong. I became a literalist. etc etc
Are you going to try to talk me out of believing the Bible is absolute truth unless the Catholic Church said it?
Is that a good thing to do?
That seems to be the MO around here.

 

[YADA]

Why would you even need to join a “church” if all you neeed to do is follow the bible?

If the church is your "local church’ founded and led by your pastor the former aethiest and you are trying to follow the “bible” as best you can … and that is Okay for you…

Why is it not equally “Okay” for us “catholics” to belong to our “local church” founded by Jesus and represented on earth by the Pope and the Bishops, doing our best to follow the “bible”? We are following th “bible” that we also shared with you, through the Christian history and tradition [although through time you have received a changed version … it still is basically the same book especially the NT.]

And do not kid yourself, you have also received much from the ‘Tradition’ of our ‘local church’ that you accept without thinking or controversy ie Trinity, One God, Three Persons, the 27 Boos of the New Testament, and symbols: the Cross, etc …

By your experience, if a person attempts to follow scripture doing their best to interpret it…

Which gets me back to my question … why do you go to any church, why not just sit home with your bible … ?

 

[Rightlydivide]

QUOTE=YADA;3033231]Why would you even need to join a “church” if all you neeed to do is follow the bible?

The Bible says to go to church. You do not “join” the church, we do not have membership rolls.

If the church is your "local church’ founded and led by your pastor the former aethiest and you are trying to follow the “bible” as best you can … and that is Okay for you…

Why is it not equally “Okay” for us “catholics” to belong to our “local church” founded by Jesus and represented on earth by the Pope and the Bishops, doing our best to follow the “bible”?

Sure, but I believe the Bible teaches to discuss these matters. That is what the Bereans did and it was a good thing.

And do not kid yourself, you have also received much from the ‘Tradition’ of our ‘local church’ that you accept without thinking or controversy ie Trinity, One God, Three Persons, the 27 Boos of the New Testament, and symbols: the Cross, etc …

We do not use the word Trinity.
We do not have symbols.

By your experience, if a person attempts to follow scripture doing their best to interpret it…

Which gets me back to my question … why do you go to any church, why not just sit home with your bible … ?

Hebrews 10:25

 

[Metaron]

Those translations are wrong.
There is a word for mortal, it is thnētos.
That word is not used.

That being said, some sins, yes, are more serious than others. I believe the Scripture you were referring to in your question, comes from 1 John 5:16.
In a nutshell, there are three conditions that must be met for something to be a mortal sin:

1.Grave matter as specified by the Ten Commandments.
2.Full knowledge of the sinful character of the act, in opposition to God’s law.
3.Complete consent showing that it was a deliberate personal choice.

Now, many who read this, as a result of their sinful nature, automatically begin trying to find loopholes and pick words apart, etc. in an effort to justify their own selfishness and sin. Don’t fall into that trap, either, that’s just where the devil wants you. He doesn’t want you growing in holiness, he wants to keep you trapped in sin (Rom. 7:21). The Catechism further warns that “feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of sin.” (CCC# 1859). Read Mk. 3:5-6 and Lk. 16:19-31, for more information.
Live a life of holiness and avoid sin at all costs. The price you pay in the end, is not worth the “fun” in the moment. God wants you to have life. Sin destroys that life.

“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.”

I know that I believe the Bible is absolute truth. Certainity is the appeal for people who join groups like the Catholic church and some other groups

I admire your arguementation, and I know you’re sincere. most of all, I’m glad you trust in Christ, and are no longer atheistic. So I don’t get all riled up over disputes. Over time, I think that you will see the truth of the Catholic position, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way (buddy…! ). But certainty in grave matters (I think we both agree that those are grave matters at least) is something I must have.

 

[jimmy]

jimmy;3033184:

I do not agree with your presupposition. I think God’s will was done. It was not a human thing at all.

Yes, of course Gods will was done otherwise it would be evil. The point is that it was done through the Church. Did God act in this one instant and not in any other? My presupposition is that God guides His people through history. The Church was not simply guided in this one instance by God but in all areas of theology.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide;3033220:

Yes, of course Gods will was done otherwise it would be evil. The point is that it was done through the Church. Did God act in this one instant and not in any other? My presupposition is that God guides His people through history. The Church was not simply guided in this one instance by God but in all areas of theology.

It was done throught the church. We disagree on what church means exactly, as you well know.
Scripture is scripture before it was ever written. God’s will be done. Did he guide people? Yes. You and I both know the disagreement is over the claims that the Catholic church is the “Church”.
No need to get off on that tangent.

 

[Rightlydivide]

That being said, some sins, yes, are more serious than others. I believe the Scripture you were referring to in your question, comes from 1 John 5:16.
In a nutshell, there are three conditions that must be met for something to be a mortal sin:

1.Grave matter as specified by the Ten Commandments.
2.Full knowledge of the sinful character of the act, in opposition to God’s law.
3.Complete consent showing that it was a deliberate personal choice.

Now, many who read this, as a result of their sinful nature, automatically begin trying to find loopholes and pick words apart, etc. in an effort to justify their own selfishness and sin. Don’t fall into that trap, either, that’s just where the devil wants you. He doesn’t want you growing in holiness, he wants to keep you trapped in sin (Rom. 7:21). The Catechism further warns that “feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of sin.” (CCC# 1859). Read Mk. 3:5-6 and Lk. 16:19-31, for more information.
Live a life of holiness and avoid sin at all costs. The price you pay in the end, is not worth the “fun” in the moment. God wants you to have life. Sin destroys that life.

“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.”

I admire your arguementation, and I know you’re sincere. most of all, I’m glad you trust in Christ, and are no longer atheistic. So I don’t get all riled up over disputes. Over time, I think that you will see the truth of the Catholic position, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way (buddy…! ). But certainty in grave matters (I think we both agree that those are grave matters at least) is something I must have.

You have brought up a large topic when you talk about grave matter. It leads to the larger topic of faith and works.
The topic of salvation. The topic of what exactly the OT says to gentile Christians after Acts 15. Too much to sustain in a thread. I admire your skills as well and sincerity.

 

[Metaron]

You have brought up a large topic when you talk about grave matter. It leads to the larger topic of faith and works.
The topic of salvation. The topic of what exactly the OT says to gentile Christians after Acts 15. Too much to sustain in a thread. I admire your skills as well and sincerity.

You’re right, we can’t go off into those larger topics without derailing this little thread. Still… isn’t it an important issue, to know with certainty whether life situations of those kinds are sinful or not?

 

[Metaron]

I have answered this already time after time.
It changed my life. I was an atheist.
I saw the change of my friends who became Christians.
I accepted Jesus rose from the dead and I became a Christian.
I read scholarship and decided the liberals had it all wrong. I became a literalist. etc etc
Are you going to try to talk me out of believing the Bible is absolute truth unless the Catholic Church said it?
Is that a good thing to do?
That seems to be the MO around here.

Oh, no… remember that arguementation sometimes gets heated, but we’re all brothers/sisters in Christ, so please disregard incindiary remarks, as it gets heated. I’m sure he didn’t mean it that way. No-one, I’m sure, means to push you away from Christ.

 

[wanner47]

But how do you **know **that your interpretation is correct? What if you’re wrong? It’d be a pretty serious thing to be wrong about, don’t you think?

You do not have to listen. If you choose to listen(ie read) you will. I do not understand your confusion. You seem like you are always around people who agree with you.

Don’t I wish. Pretty much my entire family is Protestant.

At the risk of sounding like a complete moron, of course you think that or you would not be Catholic. That seems self evident. If you believed like me you would not be a Catholic.

Right, but like I said, I think the CC has the better claim. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus gave YOU the authority to infallibly interpret Scripture?

Like you’ve already said, it doesn’t.

That means that you could be wrong. The Lutherans could be wrong. The Baptists could be wrong.

Do you honestly think that Jesus would leave this earth without giving generations and generations of Christians a way to know for sure and with absolute certainty what His teachings were?

He gave power to the Apostles, but he had to know that they would eventually die. He knew that we are all fallible men subject to interpreting the Scriptures fallibly as well.

Knowing this, do you honestly think He would leave His Church, the one He promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against, no way at all to accurately preserve and transmit His teachings without fear of them being distorted by fallible men?

Why should I accept your fallible belief that scripture and history point to the truth of the Catholic church?

It’s not my fallible belief. It’s the teaching of Christ found in the Bible that you belief to be infallible.

Christ changed my life. Do you really expect me to shut up about it?

Of course not, and I never said that you should “shut up about it.” The whole point of your OP seemed to be to persuade Catholics that the Catholic Church is wrong because we supposedly ignore Scripture. But my question is, why should I accept your interpretation of those particular Scriptures as opposed to the Catholic Church’s?

 

[Coder]

• How does the papal tierra, mitre and so forth not violate what Paul is teaching
• …
• …

Did you not also read the next verse 1 Cor. 11:16: ?

1 Cor. 11:16: But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.

 

[Rightlydivide]

that your interpretation is correct? What if you’re wrong? It’d be a pretty serious thing to be wrong about, don’t you think?
Of course it is serious. It is of the upmost seriousness. If I am wrong, then according to the Catholic church I would think I would go to hell. I am not invincibly ignorant. You see, I fully accept that God is soverign and that only 1/3 of the world is Christian. And a lot of those people are not probably going to heaven. So according to the Bible, all of those people are going to hell. I accept that reality, that is why soul winning is of the upmost importance.

Right, but like I said, I think the CC has the better claim.

And I think you are wrong.

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus gave YOU the authority to infallibly interpret Scripture?

Like you’ve already said, it doesn’t.
If the question is what is a better claim,the individual believer versus a magisterium led by the bishop of the Catholic church in Rome, I take my view.

That means that you could be wrong.

The Lutherans could be wrong. The Baptists could be wrong.
Of course! Do you think we have not thought about that. YOU could be wrong.

Do you honestly think that Jesus would leave this earth without giving generations and generations of Christians a way to know for sure

and with absolute certainty what His teachings were?
God’s will be done. Do you honestly think 80% of the world is going to hell? I do. That is why we are to be soul winners. We DESERVE hell. It is only through the grace of God that we do not get. He did give his people a way. It was contained in the teachings of the Apostles following and they are in the Bible now.
Catholicism does not teach absolute certainity and you know that about matters of salvation. Since Christ came people been able to hear the message. I have never said that despite Catholicism errors they were so great that people did not reach heaven.

He gave power to the Apostles, but he had to know that they would eventually die. He knew that we are all fallible men subject to interpreting the Scriptures fallibly as well.

Yes

Knowing this, do you honestly think He would leave His Church, the one He promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against, no way at all to accurately preserve and transmit His teachings without fear of them being distorted by fallible men?

I honestly absolutely feel he gave his Bible and all who follow its teachings will reach heaven. I absolutely and honestly think this.
I absolutely and honestly do not think that the Catholic church is the infallible interpreter of scripture.

It’s not my fallible belief. It’s the teaching of Christ found in the Bible that you belief to be infallible.

It is your fallible belief. You looked at the same evidence I did in the same fallible way. It is true. You had scripture, you had tradition, you read some books, you prayed, and you decided it was the Catholic church that was the infallible interpreter of scripture.
I am glad you believe the Bible.

Of course not, and I never said that you should “shut up about it.” The whole point of your OP seemed to be to persuade Catholics that the Catholic Church is wrong because we supposedly ignore Scripture. But my question is, why should I accept your interpretation of those particular Scriptures as opposed to the Catholic Church’s?

I think you should follow the Bible, I have already answered your question, you just do not like my answer or agree with it. God has spoken and I will listen.

 

[wanner47]

Of course it is serious. It is of the upmost seriousness. If I am wrong, then according to the Catholic church I would think I would go to hell. I am not invincibly ignorant. You see, I fully accept that God is soverign and that only 1/3 of the world is Christian. And a lot of those people are not probably going to heaven. So according to the Bible, all of those people are going to hell. I accept that reality, that is why soul winning is of the upmost importance.

Actually, the Catholic Church cannot and does not say with any certainty who is going to Hell, because the Church simply cannot and does not know. Only God Himself can judge the hearts of men.

I’m not sure if you aren’t invincibly ignorant. If you knew the Church was right and still rejected its teachings, you’d more than likely go to Hell. But that doesn’t seem to be the case in your situation. Still, don’t you want something more to go on than your own hunch or gut feelings that you’re right in something this serious?

And I think you are wrong.

If the question is what is a better claim,the individual believer versus a magisterium led by the bishop of the Catholic church in Rome, I take my view.

No, the question is what is the better claim: the individual believer or the Church to which Christ handed the keys of the Kingdom and promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it?

Why would Christ set up a Church in which the individual believer had no source for Truth other than their own individual fallible interpretation? It doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Of course! Do you think we have not thought about that. YOU could be wrong.

Of course, because I’m fallible. But I’m trusting in the Church that Jesus established; the one power on Earth that, purely through the grace of the Holy Spirit, is not infallible when it comes to faith and morals.

God’s will be done. Do you honestly think 80% of the world is going to hell? I do. That is why we are to be soul winners. We DESERVE hell.

I do not presume to know who is and who is not going to Hell. I am not God; only He can judge the hearts and minds of men.

It is only through the grace of God that we do not get. He did give his people a way. It was contained in the teachings of the Apostles following and they are in the Bible now.

But what if people interpret the way to salvation wrongly based on their own fallible selves? As I said above, do you think God would be so cruel as to not have an infallible authority that has the Truth; that He would leave us all to stumble around blindly trying to find the Truth based on our own individual fallible interpretations?

And if, as you say, the Bible is the *only * infallible source of Truth, why did God not leave us an infallible interpreter, knowing that the Bible does not interpret itself and that men are fallible beings subject to incorrect interpretations?

Catholicism does not teach absolute certainty and you know that about matters of salvation. Since Christ came people been able to hear the message. I have never said that despite Catholicism errors they were so great that people did not reach heaven.

Catholicism teaches certainty about salvation in that if we do as Christ said, if we obey His commandments and obey His Church, we **will **be saved and have eternal life. However, we have a choice – free will – to disobey His commandments and disobey His Church, and if we remain in obstinate, unrepentant sin, we could lose our salvation.

I honestly absolutely feel he gave his Bible and all who follow its teachings will reach heaven. I absolutely and honestly think this. I absolutely and honestly do not think that the Catholic church is the infallible interpreter of scripture.

So Jesus left us an infallible source of Truth, the Bible, but did NOT leave us an infallible interpreter for it. That doesn’t seem to make much sense, does it?

You say, “All who follow its teachings will reach heaven.” But who determines what its teachings are? There are 33,000+ different Protestant denominations in the world today – 33,000+ different interpretations of Scripture; 33,000+ denominations who honestly and sincerely believe that they are “following its teachings” correctly. Who is right? Are they all right?

continued…

 

[wanner47]

By the way, if the Bible is the **only **infallible source of Truth, do you mean to say that from 34 A.D. to when the Bible was first compiled, all Christians went to Hell since they didn’t have that source of infallible Truth to rely on?

It is your fallible belief. You looked at the same evidence I did in the same fallible way. It is true. You had scripture, you had tradition, you read some books, you prayed, and you decided it was the Catholic church that was the infallible interpreter of scripture.

Actually, Jesus decided that. I just chose to follow the Truth when I found it – and my decision was primarily based on the overwhelming evidence available that the Catholic Church has the only true claim to the authority of Christ.

I am glad you believe the Bible.

If I didn’t, I couldn’t be Catholic.

I think you should follow the Bible, I have already answered your question, you just do not like my answer or agree with it. God has spoken and I will listen.

But how am I supposed to know that God has really and truly spoken to you, and that I should listen to what you say as opposed to the Catholic Church?

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s not my fallible belief. It’s the teaching of Christ found in the Bible that you belief to be infallible.

Of course not, and I never said that you should “shut up about it.” The whole point of your OP seemed to be to persuade Catholics that the Catholic Church is wrong because we supposedly ignore Scripture. But my question is, why should I accept your interpretation of those particular Scriptures as opposed to the Catholic Church’s?

In a few sentences you have said rightly what this arguement is all about. It boils down to this, isn’t it? Whose interpretation one accepts?

Sure, we don’t need anybody interpretation when Biblical verses address certain aspect of our lives. Verse like those that command us to love one another is easy and straight forward enough for Christians to follow.

But we need to be sure with those that deal or imply doctrines. So whose interpretation we follow? Do we follow our own interpretation, or our pastors who break off from the church or do we follow the apostles’ interpretation which were laid down in the tradition of the church. In other word, how does the church traditionally interprets those verses?

I think this is the question that needs to be answered honestly. It is not too wrong if we look to the church as represented by the apostles for interpretation, and take it from there. Sure, anybody is free to interpret Biblical verses on their own and then set up new churches when the interpretation differs.

But Catholicism does not do it that way, and praise God, I think it is NOT a bad thing.

God bless.

 

[Coder]

1 Cor. 11:16: But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm

 

[lhagan]

Please do research before having fanboy fights.
The reason this is not getting resolved is because you are answering each other on the views of your church. Answer them with facts instead.
Protestant- a religion that protests the Catholic church,-
dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Protestant
Yes Catholics…Protestant=pro-test-ant not prot-est-ant.
If you are arguing with Catholics you are protesting.

You are BOTH right about the old church.
The church did not have a distinguished title. It did not need one until Protestants came.
The old church was not Catholic but, it had the SAME beliefs and doctrine as the Catholic church. They simply got a title.

Hair length?
My hair does not get to a crew cut. Short and long are VERY GENERAL terms
Women?
Women showing their beauty without losing the standard definition of dignity is preferred by most.

In a human text it is usually generalized words expressing their preferences or preferences of others.

 

[lhagan]

Oops Forgot a source.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Follow the line. Catholic extends straight out and simply adds Catholic to the “title” of church when Protestants break off.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Still, don’t you want something more to go on than your own hunch or gut feelings that you’re right in something this serious?

I do not need anything else. I believe the Bible is the truth for a number of reasons. A hunch is not what turned my life around.

No, the question is what is the better claim: the individual believer or the Church to which Christ handed the keys of the Kingdom and promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it?

I do not believe you are that church. While you can be part of that church, I do not believe you are that "C"hurch

Why would Christ set up a Church in which the individual believer had no source for Truth other than their own individual fallible interpretation? It doesn’t seem to make much sense.

He sent the comforter. He has given us the Bible. It makes perfect sense to me.

Of course, because I’m fallible. But I’m trusting in the Church that Jesus established; the one power on Earth that, purely through the grace of the Holy Spirit, is not infallible when it comes to faith and morals.

That is where we differ once again. The issue of the church.

But what if people interpret the way to salvation wrongly based on their own fallible selves? As I said above, do you think God would be so cruel as to not have an infallible authority that has the Truth; that He would leave us all to stumble around blindly trying to find the Truth based on our own individual fallible interpretations?

There is no way to get around fallibility in terms of the decisions that people make outside of faith in that God’s will is done. I am not stumbling. I WAS blind but now I see

And if, as you say, the Bible is the *only * infallible source of Truth, why did God not leave us an infallible interpreter, knowing that the Bible does not interpret itself and that men are fallible beings subject to incorrect interpretations?

I do believe the Bible is self interpreting when people do not come into with preconceived notions.
Lets face facts. Division is all around us. From the get go, the churches in Revelation had fallen into error in some ways. I do not get to create what I think is how God should do things.

You say, “All who follow its teachings will reach heaven.” But who determines what its teachings are? There

People are always determining these things. God has sent his Holy Spirit to guide us. I cannot go beyone what the Bible teaches.

are 33,000+ different Protestant denominations in the world today – 33,000+ different interpretations of Scripture; 33,000+ denominations who honestly and sincerely believe that they are “following its teachings” correctly. Who is right? Are they all right?

No. They are not all right. Who is right among all these denominations that have conflicting traditions? You cannot get around that you have to make a decision.

ind-movement.org/links_denominations.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholic_Churches
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church_organization
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy