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coolcatholicguy
Guest
I recently heard that a friend of mine’s parents were not married in a Church. Is that a sin?
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otjm
Guest
One should be careful about what one “hears”.
The Church requires, by Canon law, that a priest or deacon be the official witness to the marriage.
One may receive permission (sometimes given, sometimes not) to be married in a place other than the parish church. Some marriages are performed in the rectory (if such exists), and occasionally elsewhere, and there may be granted permission to have a minister of another faith present at the ceremony and somewhat involved, as well as the priest or deacon.
What you may have heard is that the couple did not follow the Church law (e.g. in front of the official witness of the Church - priest or deacon) and were married in front of a minister, judge or justice of the peace.
Or you may have heard they were not married in the parish church building.
If the former, they have violated Canon law (and may have a greater or lesser degree of moral guilt concerning it); if the latter, more information would be needed.
The Church requires, by Canon law, that a priest or deacon be the official witness to the marriage.
One may receive permission (sometimes given, sometimes not) to be married in a place other than the parish church. Some marriages are performed in the rectory (if such exists), and occasionally elsewhere, and there may be granted permission to have a minister of another faith present at the ceremony and somewhat involved, as well as the priest or deacon.
What you may have heard is that the couple did not follow the Church law (e.g. in front of the official witness of the Church - priest or deacon) and were married in front of a minister, judge or justice of the peace.
Or you may have heard they were not married in the parish church building.
If the former, they have violated Canon law (and may have a greater or lesser degree of moral guilt concerning it); if the latter, more information would be needed.
po18guy
Well-known member
If they are not Catholic, they could be married almost anywhere. If they were married by a judge or justice of the peace, then they are simply living together, in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Marriage is a Sacrament in most Christian churches and is bound by the rules of whichever denomination officiated. However, the marriage might not be recognized by the Catholic church, if that makes a difference.
Or, they were Catholics married in the 60s or 70s. A lot of strange things happened back then.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
If they are not Catholic then they are not bound by Canon Law. But if they were ever baptized, then they are. We cannot expect people who are not Catholics to pursue sacramental Marriage.
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Phemie
Guest
If neither is Catholic it doesn’t matter since they didn’t have to follow Catholic laws on marriage.
If only one is a Catholic they may well have had a dispensation to marry outside the Catholic Church and once that dispensation is granted the marriage can occur just about anywhere: recently a member of my parish was granted a dispensation to be married by an Anglican minister friend of his Anglican fiancée and the ceremony took place in his parents’ garden.
If both are Catholic then we don’t have enough information to know exactly what the situation is.
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coolcatholicguy
Guest
I pretty sure they are both Catholic.
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
If Catholic then the Catholic Church needs to recognize the marriage. Otherwise they are asked to live as brother and sister until it is recognized and blessed.
I know…
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
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LaRoza
Guest
The sacrament of Matrimony can be received ONLY in the Church. A church is a special type of building, which is distinct from the Church.
Sin required grave matter, intent and knowledge, so judging them is impossible. To live as people married without receiving the sacrament is a grave matter and for most Catholics, would be a sin.
Getting married in a physical church is not necessary.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Catholics are required to follow Church laws on marriage. That being said what we “heard” about other people is not relevant to us personally, but is their own business, unless we are in a position to need that information (preparing someone for Confirmation, for instance). It is not our role to judge the state of the soul of another person, and when we “hear” these things we are obliged in Christian charity to put the kindest possible interpretation on the situation.
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otjm
Guest
Right on!
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PatriceA
Guest
A second
. Please be careful with any information you have “overheard.”
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coolcatholicguy
Guest
What is the difference between judging others and being concerned, in your opinion?
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otjm
Guest
If I am concerned about the status of someone’s marriage, I have to ask myself “why?”. Unless and until they tell me clearly that their marriage is irregular, it is essentially none of my business.
Having said that, I have several first cousins whom I know are in irregular marriages. I keep them in prayers. When we meet, the status of their marriage does not come up, and for sure I am not bringing it up. They know me, they know that I am loyal to the Church and attend Mass regularly, and if they had something to say, they certainly could say it. It is not my business to criticize them or query them as to what they did, why, or what they are going to do about it.
I do keep them in prayer. Beyond that, unless and until the Holy Spirit moves the issue, it is in God’s hands, not mine. It is not my place nor within my competence or capability to say they are subjectively morally wrong; that is God’s duty. And I trust God to do what God sees fit without consulting me.
I teach RCIA, and when the occasion presented itself, I have commented on, indirectly, the issue. I do feel a duty to speak up to others who may not be in such a situation, but may get into one.
Judgemental: I speak to no one about my cousins by name, and only indirectly if the subject comes up from someone else. Their moral status is God’s business, not mine.
There is a long, long distance between a comment about objective moral wrong and subjective moral wrong. The Church gives us the anmswers as to what is an objective moral wrong. It is up to God to determine the subjective moral status; the Church doesn’t do that and neither do I.
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PJM
Guest
NOT a sin, BUT a opportunity for MANT GRACES has been missed!
po18guy
Well-known member
God alone judges. However, Jesus taught us that we will know them by their fruits, so we are to be fruit inspectors (Thanks, padrej!). A big point is being missed here, I think: If they were not married in the church, they are committing, in the eyes of the Church, mortal sin. Out of concern for their souls, you might make a discreet inquiry into where they were married. If they were married in the Church, problem solved. If not, you now know that they are living in mortal sin. Charity (the greatest virtue) requires, even demands that you make them at least aware of the Church’s teaching, so that they can then decide for themselves what to do about it. Consider what we say in the penitential rite: “I confess to almighty God that I have sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do…”
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WetCatechumen
Guest
The parents of a friend of mine who is formerly Catholic (she still self-identifies but continually rails against the church for being misogynistic) are divorced and re-married and according to her, receive communion because a priest told them they were essentially married and there was no need for him to get to annulment. I believe the wife did, though.
I really hate how people say that “divorced people can’t receive communion”. Maybe we should say instead, “People who are committing adultery can’t receive communion.”
I really hate how people say that “divorced people can’t receive communion”. Maybe we should say instead, “People who are committing adultery can’t receive communion.”
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puzzleannie
Guest
well we are concerned when we have something to be concerned about. When we hear some information, and form an opinion about that person based on the information, that comes close to being judgmental. We can for instance judge objectively the sinfulness of a given action when we see someone do it. What we cannot do is judge the person and say “he is a sinner”. But making a judgment of any kind based on “what I heard” is unwise and could be uncharitable. you express a concern about this couple, I believe simply because you wanted general information on what rules Catholics are obliged to obey re marriage, but if you have a further concern about this couple it would be best to discuss it with them (if it really is your business and your concern is legitimate). “Married in the Church” does not necessarily mean, married in a Catholic Church building btw. It means obeying all the laws on marriage–being free to marry, exchanging full free will consent, being open to children, marrying only another Catholic, in a Catholic church, witnessed by a priest or deacon. Some of these can be dispensed for good reason, if there is no danger to the faith of the Catholic party(s), some cannot, consent for instance. You can find several discussions on different aspects of the sacrament of matrimony on that forum, liturgy and sacraments.
I feel compelled to note again after rereading some of the responses here that we simply do not know all the circumstances of the marriage of any given couple–not even always our own parents. We don’t know what pastoral counsel they have received from their priest, and when the situation involves matter for confession it is simply outside our competence to even speculate about it.
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kensz
Guest
My girfriend and I are considering marriage. I’m Catholic and getting annuled. She’s not Catholic or getting annuled. She is baptised but was married by a JOP. Does she need to get this annuled? What are the ramifications of getting married outside of the church?
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coolcatholicguy
Guest
I would suggest you talk to a Priest about that.
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