Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

[SSTeacher]

I’m beginning to wonder if my understanding of the Catholic view of salvation is correct. According to an article on Zenit, during an Audience last Wednesday (November 19, 2008), the Pope endorsed Martin Luther’s notion of justification by faith alone. The wording was evidently as follows:

“That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love.”

At the end of the Audience (the article states), Benedict XVI greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:

“Dear Brothers and Sisters,
In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God.”

Check it out:

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Many thanks.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[paul_c]

B16 is not saying that at all. He is consistent with the Catechism. This is the key point:

That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love. That is why, in the Letter to the Galatians, St. Paul develops above all his doctrine on justification; he speaks of faith that operates through charity (cf. Galatians 5:14).

Paul knows that in the double love of God and neighbor the whole law is fulfilled. Thus the whole law is observed in communion with Christ, in faith that creates charity. We are just when we enter into communion with Christ, who is love. We will see the same in next Sunday’s Gospel for the solemnity of Christ the King.** It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love**. What I ask is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you feed me when I was hungry, clothe me when I was naked? So justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel, we can say: love alone, charity alone. However, there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St. Paul. It is the same vision, the one according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the realization of communion with Christ. Thus, being united to him we are just, and in no other way.

Here is the catechism view on merit:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.** Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.** Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Net, God gives us Grace. This leads to faith. Faith leads to love, which leads to good works. Good works leads to the the graces we ned for salvation and the attainment of eternal live

 

[CatsAndDogs]

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

We never believed in salvation by works.

We have always believed in salvation by faith and works from that faith.

I’m not saved by saying I’m “saved” because I believe in Christ as savior. I’ll BE saved because I believe in Christ as savior and do what I’m supposed to do as commanded of me by our Savior.

:shamrock2:

 

[JonNC]

We never believed in salvation by works.

We have always believed in salvation by faith and works from that faith.

I’m not saved by saying I’m “saved” because I believe in Christ as savior. I’ll BE saved because I believe in Christ as savior and do what I’m supposed to do as commanded of me by our Savior.

:shamrock2:

As a Lutheran, I agree.

Jon

 

[MrStain]

If your understanding is that Catholics believe they are saved by works you are incorrect.

Catholics are saved by Grace.

 

[sambos671]

Catholics believe that Salvation is more than just justification. They believe they are saved by Grace which starts with God.

 

[RobHom]

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Many thanks.

Grace and peace,
Mick

Mick, Catholics have NEVER believed is salvation by works. That is a misunderstanding that non-Catholics have regarding Catholicism.

We, simply put, believe that faith without works is DEAD!! Yes, faith is salvic, but as It says in James 2: here: drbo.org/chapter/66002.htm

On this page you will find the Catholic definitions of both Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy. newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm Also if one reads Matthew 25: 31-46 drbo.org/chapter/47025.htm It is well spelled out…

Works alone have no “salvic properties”. To do just good works is to prove you are a good person. You can be an atheist and be a good person. Faith in Jesus Christ is what is truly required, and also to follow His Word…and His Word is not mere “suggestion”…so it is necessary to prove your faith by works, which in reality…is just living as Christ Himself instructed us.

 

[SSTeacher]

Mick, Catholics have NEVER believed is salvation by works. That is a misunderstanding that non-Catholics have regarding Catholicism.

Works alone have no “salvic properties”. To do just good works is to prove you are a good person. You can be an atheist and be a good person. Faith in Jesus Christ is what is truly required, and also to follow His Word…and His Word is not mere “suggestion”…so it is necessary to prove your faith by works, which in reality…is just living as Christ Himself instructed us.

Thanks for your helpful commentary, paul c, CatsAnd Dogs, JonNC, MrStain, sambos671, and RobHom.

I’ve considered the links/sources to which you kindly pointed me and I can’t seem to find anything therein that illuminates any significant difference between Catholic teaching and mainstream Protestant understanding apropos the relationship between faith and works.

Perhaps it’s just that I misunderstand the Catholic doctrines and provisos related to salvation, which are not generally embraced within Protestantism. Help me along, if you feel so inclined.

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous? And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness. I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

It’s been my sincere belief that this is my position. However, my growing uncertainty as to whether the Protestant doctrines of ***Sola Scriptura ***and ***Prima Scriptura ***are really tenable is leading me to look carefully and cautiously at my presuppositions.

Anticipating your help and support.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[graceandglory]

I’m beginning to wonder if my understanding of the Catholic view of salvation is correct. According to an article on Zenit, during an Audience last Wednesday (November 19, 2008), the Pope endorsed Martin Luther’s notion of justification by faith alone. The wording was evidently as follows:

“That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love.”

At the end of the Audience (the article states), Benedict XVI greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:

“Dear Brothers and Sisters,
In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God.”

Check it out:

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Many thanks.

Grace and peace,
Mick

We never did believe in salvation by works only.
Catholics have always held the Biblical belief :
“Faith without works is dead.”
Pope Benedict was probably just clearing it up for our protestant brethren, who seem to get confused about what they don’t know.

**It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. **

***“Faith without works is about as useless as a screen door on a submarine.”
***Rich Mullins

youtube.com/watch?v=6lZzp1u1PDQ

 

[graceandglory]

I can’t seem to find anything therein that illuminates any significant difference between Catholic teaching and mainstream Protestant understanding apropos the relationship between faith and works.

Perhaps it’s just that I misunderstand the Catholic doctrines and provisos related to salvation, w
:

I have been evangelical. Our “understanding” as evangelicals is that when we fall in love with Christ, we can’t help but serve Him out of love.

That’s faith plus “works.”

“I’ll show you my faith by my works.” The focus of “works” in the real theological sense, isn’t the “works” it’s the love that motivates them.

A non-believer can do works too. On judgement day, God will judge our hearts.

 

[graceandglory]

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous? And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness. I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

You should really get Pope Benedict’s encyclical, Spe Salvi, or read it on line.

“SPE SALVI facti sumus”—in hope we were saved, says Saint Paul to the Romans, and likewise to us (Rom 8:24)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

Scripture speaks of a hope that is so strong, it is as if we are assured eternity with God in Heaven. But it is still really HOPE. Not hope, like I hope I get a certain necklace for Christmas, but a different HOPE, sorry I lack words.

What protestants call “assurance,” which utterly fails when you do a complete Biblical study on it, Catholics call HOPE in Salvation. We do not have the power to see our future. Only God is omniscient.

 

[graceandglory]

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous?

Yes. It would be presumption. In our Catechism, which is very thorough, yet easy to read,
also online here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm#2091
It even details what is the sin of “Presumption.”
It is a sin against the theological virtue of HOPE.

Hope

2090 When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity.** Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and of incurring punishment.**

2091 **The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:
**
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

**2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).
**

You probably already intuited these things in your heart. The Catholic Church just spells it out in our Catechism, so that there is no confusion. When we can all agree on the basics, it allows us to go on to bigger and better things, not getting all muddled down by words and trying to understand scriptures all by ourself as if we are alone on a deserted island.

 

[graceandglory]

Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God;

So, to answer your question about Catholics having “assurance of salvation,” it’s not “assurance” but a “confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision.”

Contrast with the definition of Assurance from thefreedictionary.com/assurance

as·sur·ance (-shrns)
n.

1. The act of assuring.
   **2. A statement or indication that inspires confidence; **a guarantee or pledge: gave her assurance that the plan would succeed.
   3. Freedom from doubt; certainty: set sail in the assurance of favorable winds. See Synonyms at certainty.
   4. Self-confidence. See Synonyms at confidence.
   5. Excessive self-confidence; presumption.
2. Chiefly British Insurance, especially life insurance.

 

[graceandglory]

I found this interesting article when googling for
assurance salvation

users.binary.net/polycarp/hope.html

 

[guanophore]

I’m beginning to wonder if my understanding of the Catholic view of salvation is correct. According to an article on Zenit, during an Audience last Wednesday (November 19, 2008), the Pope endorsed Martin Luther’s notion of justification by faith alone. The wording was evidently as follows:

“That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love.”

At the end of the Audience (the article states), Benedict XVI greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:

“Dear Brothers and Sisters,
In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God.”

Check it out:

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Many thanks.

Grace and peace,
Mick

The Catholic Church has never taught that human beings can merit their own salvation by doing good works. This is known as a Pelagian heresy,and was defeated very early in the Church history by the teaching of Jesus that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works.

I’ve considered the links/sources to which you kindly pointed me and I can’t seem to find anything therein that illuminates any significant difference between Catholic teaching and mainstream Protestant understanding apropos the relationship between faith and works.

The major difference is the modern fundamentalist movement influenced by Calvanism. This view considers (among other things) that salvation happens at one point in time, for all time. In contrast, the Apostles taught that we enter salvation at baptism, continue throughout this life to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and attain eternal life when we die in a state of grace.

Perhaps it’s just that I misunderstand the Catholic doctrines and provisos related to salvation, which are not generally embraced within Protestantism.  Help me along, if you feel so inclined.

That is why we are here!

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous?  And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness.  I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

There are many assurrances given to us in Scripture in which we can have confident hope. However, we temper such understandings of Paul with the other writings of the NT. Elsewhere, Paul refers to the “once saved always saved” notion as immature.

It’s been my sincere belief that this is my position.  However, my growing uncertainty as to whether the Protestant doctrines of ***Sola Scriptura ***and ***Prima Scriptura ***are really tenable is leading me to look carefully and cautiously at my presuppositions.

You are to be commended for such looking.

Anticipating your help and support.

Grace and peace,
Mick

If you are open to learning about the history of your faith, I think you will come to find that Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura are man made Traditions that were necessary to replace authorities appointed by Christ who were behaving in a corrupt manner.

 

[RobHom]

Thanks for your helpful commentary, paul c, CatsAnd Dogs, JonNC, MrStain, sambos671, and RobHom.

You’re welcome… I am but a humble servant.

I’ve considered the links/sources to which you kindly pointed me and I can’t seem to find anything therein that illuminates any significant difference between Catholic teaching and mainstream Protestant understanding apropos the relationship between faith and works.

To some extent you will find little difference…until you begin to wander off into some of the other sects or denominations.

Perhaps it’s just that I misunderstand the Catholic doctrines and provisos related to salvation, which are not generally embraced within Protestantism. Help me along, if you feel so inclined.

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous? And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness. I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

To put it simply… we do not believe in the “OSAS” position (Once Saved Always Saved)…we believe that we have free will and can even make the choice to do something that will actually condemn us even after accepting salvation. Nor do we accept many other concepts…like Calvinism’s “TULIP”.

It’s been my sincere belief that this is my position. However, my growing uncertainty as to whether the Protestant doctrines of ***Sola Scriptura ***and ***Prima Scriptura ***are really tenable is leading me to look carefully and cautiously at my presuppositions.

Anticipating your help and support.

Grace and peace,
Mick

Mick,

Speaking as a Catholic, but for myself,( and here I would ask that my Brethren feel free to correct me)…I can tell you that we as Catholics do not accept the “sola’s”…and our viewpoint on the Bible is just maybe a little different. Our Church is built on the Gospel…plain and simple. But we also acknowledge that there is more than the Bible. The writings of the Early Christian Fathers and other documents and scrolls that have been validated, yet were not included or even available when the Canon was established all have significance to Catholics in shaping our thoughts and beliefs.

For instance: There is much that is said about The Blessed Virgin Mary…and persons outside the Catholic Church have doubts about her position in God’s plan…and some deny her importance…there is much that supports her position and importance as an “intercessor” on our behalf. If you were to go to this link and read about the “Sub Tuum”… and when and where it was found…it will give you a point of reference regarding Mary. catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=1084

You will see that the scroll was found in 1917…and authenticated in 1938. I guess my point is this: We do not attempt to confine God in any way shape or form. Afterall, are not all things possible with God?

Peace Brother!!

Rob

 

[Moonflower]

I’m beginning to wonder if my understanding of the Catholic view of salvation is correct. According to an article on Zenit, during an Audience last Wednesday (November 19, 2008), the Pope endorsed Martin Luther’s notion of justification by faith alone. The wording was evidently as follows:

“That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love.”

At the end of the Audience (the article states), Benedict XVI greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:

“Dear Brothers and Sisters,
In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God.”

Check it out:

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

So my question is:

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Many thanks.

Grace and peace,
Mick

We still believe in the salvation by works and deeds. And yes Catholicism is correct and valid it is the true faith of Jesus!

 

[Our_Refuge]

=SSTeacher;4458591]
Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous?

There is no assurance of salvation. It depends on the state of our soul and the moment of death.

And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness. I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Confessing with your mouth is not a one time event. You must do this ever day.
Keeping the commandments is a work. Can you be saved if you confess that you believe in Jesus but do not keep his commandments.?
Faith without keeping the commandments is a dead faith and you will not be saved. Faith without works is dead.

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks for your helpful commentary, paul c, CatsAnd Dogs, JonNC, MrStain, sambos671, and RobHom.

I’ve considered the links/sources to which you kindly pointed me and I can’t seem to find anything therein that illuminates any significant difference between Catholic teaching and mainstream Protestant understanding apropos the relationship between faith and works.

Perhaps it’s just that I misunderstand the Catholic doctrines and provisos related to salvation, which are not generally embraced within Protestantism. Help me along, if you feel so inclined.

Can a Catholic have an assurance of salvation or would such a belief be considered presumptuous? And by an “assurance of salvation” I certainly don’t mean hollow utterances about “being saved” yet simultaneously living a life devoid of any of the milk of human kindness. I mean taking seriously Saint Paul’s injunction “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

It’s been my sincere belief that this is my position. However, my growing uncertainty as to whether the Protestant doctrines of ***Sola Scriptura ***and ***Prima Scriptura ***are really tenable is leading me to look carefully and cautiously at my presuppositions.

Anticipating your help and support.

Grace and peace,
Mick

Mick, your approach to these questions is one that will bear much fruit. Here is another site that contains many excellent articles on the topics of your concern:

bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm

 

[paul_c]

This is how I like to think about it. When Jesus was asked what it took to be saved, he said. " Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind ," and then he said to" love your Neighbor as yourself". You need to have Faith, because without that, you can not Love God. You also need works, because you can’t love truly your Neighbor without doing good works.

I also like to think about the relative responsibility for man between the Catholic and Protestant positions. In the typical Protestant religion, God is solely responsible for salvation, saving those on which he gives his mercy and condemning those in which he does not. No where is the person given any responsibility for his own salvation

The Catholic position is one of personal responsibilty. God gives us the Grace to be saved, but he does not withhold these Graces from anyone who seeks it. But we need to do our part. That’s why we were given free will. We get to choose whether to respond to God’s call and we get to decide whether to do God’s will. Now of course we still need God’s grace and mercy to be saved, because we are imperfect creatures but we have hope that he will give us the necessary Grace and mercy if we ask for it and show our sincerity by doing our best to do his will…