Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

[Fisher]

Probably because he shares the same theology that St. John does when he wrote the following in Revelation 3, which definitely shows that one can lose one’s salvation.

5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I like the word overcome. how do you over come?

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men**, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. **

How do you overcome?

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is HE that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Cristiano]

what about 1John 5:13 you are a catholic right. well you believe in
(transubstantiation) well what about this John 6:54, Jesus said “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life…”; the word i want to point out is (hath) the Greek is (ἔχω echō) 1) to have, i.e. to hold 2) to have i.e. own, possess

Yes, while I am physical communion with Jesus I have the eternal life in me because at that point I am transcending kronos into kairos.

The issue is not with God and with what he says but it is with us. We keep sinning even after being in communion with him and because of that we have to “trust” in him but we do not know.

Knowledge implies that we can do something to force God to accept what we decide (earn salvation) or it implies that we are worthy of his salvation, and that is impossible.

The same thing is for hell. We cannot force God to send us to hell. With our sins we can detach ourselves from Him and because of His perfect justice we are destined to hell. However, He is also perfectly merciful and we do not know which last opportunity he will give us to accept his love.

 

[Fisher]

The big problem for you there is that St. John also taught St. Ignatius of Antioch, (the Bishop of that church, a martyr by being thrown to wild animals, and a friend of St. John) what he should believe about the Eucharist and transsubstantiation and which he passed on to us in his letter to the church at Smyrna.
Do you agree with him?

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Canon Came Before Catholic Councils

 

[guanophore]

can a Cathloic know if he or she is saved?

Mary was the first Catholic. She said “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. do you think she knew she was saved?

If that is true how did Paul know that the names were in the book of life?

Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names are ** in the book of life. **

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found **written in the book of life **was cast into the lake of fire.

This is an excellent question. We know some of those who are saved because it has been revealed to us. It is also possible for names to be blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[paul_c]

My best advice to all on this board is to assume that you need to do good works to validate your faith. Why would anyone assume that they should do anything less than the best they can do? Doesn’t doing your best show love of God and neighbor?

 

[Fisher]

Knowledge implies that we can do something to force God to accept what we decide (earn salvation) or it implies that we are worthy of his salvation, and that is impossible.

I guess we should take this out then?

These things have I WRITTEN unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

 

[JonNC]

My best advice to all on this board is to assume that you need to do good works to validate your faith. Why would anyone assume that they should do anything less than the best they can do? Doesn’t doing your best show love of God and neighbor?

See my signature.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Canon Came Before Catholic Councils

Not! :dts:

 

[nilofc]

ONLY BY GRACE. This is how Catholics believed salvation can be attained by.

The response to this grace is faith working through love.

But not to respond to this is to have a faith that is dead. Thus, those who does not produce much fruits will be cut off from the vine.

 

[guanophore]

I guess we should take this out then?

These things have I WRITTEN unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

surely not! Think of it this way. We enter into salvation when we enter the living waters of baptism. We can choose, through obedience of faith, to remain in this saving stream of grace. But if not, through disobedience an disbelief, we can get out of the living water and wander off into the desert. Some who do this return to the river of life, some do not.

 

[Cristiano]

I guess we should take this out then?

These things have I WRITTEN unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

No you are correct and it is consistent with what I stated before:

“Yes, while I am physical communion with Jesus I have the eternal life in me because at that point I am transcending kronos into kairos.”

You only conveniently avoided 1 John 5:11-12. Just put the three verses together and you have a better context:

“And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.”

Do I know (implies 100% sure) that when I receive Jesus I am not in a state of mortal sin? No! I just “trust” in God’s mercy.

BTW if I were you I would be more concerned with not believing in transubstantiation (you proved the Catholic point with your quote) than worrying about being 100% sure. Just “trust” in Him.

 

[Fisher]

Paul didn’t consider it presumptuous to declare that he was on his way to heaven:

“For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” Philippians 1:23

God’s desire is for you to be assured of heaven right now:

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” Titus 1:2
“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.” 1 John 2:25

To be born again, you must receive Jesus Christ by faith as your personal Savior and trust Him alone for your salvation. When you do this, you will be born into God’s family:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12

Once in God’s family, you become a co-heir with Jesus Christ:

“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ…” Romans 8:17

As an heir, you don’t have to wonder about your destiny. You are promised:

“…an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,” 1 Peter 1:4

Isn’t that beautiful? An eternal inheritance in heaven is already reserved for all those who become a child of God. Jesus reminded those who trusted in Him that:

“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” John 14:2

Trust Christ right now. You’ ll be glad you did:

“For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalm 37:28

Stop and reason for a moment. If there is a place called heaven, a paradise wonderful beyond imagination, and if there is a place of eternal torment called hell, wouldn’t a loving God tell us how to obtain one and avoid the other?

Would God make us endure an entire lifetime, never knowing how we could escape the flames of hell and be assured of enjoying paradise with Him?

Would a loving God say, “Do as many good works as you can, then keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best when you stand before Me someday.”

No, that’s not love, that’ s torture! That’ s cruelty of the highest sort. A God of love would give us a clear, simple plan spelling out how to miss this awful place of torment and be assured of heaven.

It’s not a sin to presume you are going to heaven if you have been born into God’s family through faith in Christ. It is a Biblical fact and a precious promise from the Lord Jesus. It is never presumptuous to take God at His Word. In fact, He loves it when we do:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:27-28

God wants His children to rest in the fact that they have been born into His family and that their eternal destiny is settled:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:47

 

[Fisher]

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

What proof do you need? Paul told the Corinthians that the Christians are confident that once they leave their earthly bodies they will be present with Christ!

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are** in Christ Jesus**, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. **Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. **

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

**Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: **

**Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. **

 

[sambos671]

surely not! Think of it this way. We enter into salvation when we enter the living waters of baptism. We can choose, through obedience of faith, to remain in this saving stream of grace. But if not, through disobedience an disbelief, we can get out of the living water and wander off into the desert. Some who do this return to the river of life, some do not.

That sure sounds better than you never really know for sure. Then it leaves the impression “have I done enough to be saved?” Which is what protestants are getting up in the air about. I think better of Catholic dogma if it truely is how you pointed it out. You can be in the stream of salvation but jump out of it and perish. Just elect to stay in and God will do the rest.

 

[sambos671]

This is how I view salvation how does this match with the RCC teaching on salvation?

Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal King dom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be bap tized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be con formed to God’s image.
Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is “faith working through love.” It is an ongoing, lifelong process. Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we must also be being saved by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future tense, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.

 

[paul_c]

This is how I view salvation how does this match with the RCC teaching on salvation?

This part matches up with Catholic Doctrine:
Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal King dom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be bap tized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be con formed to God’s image.

However, it doesn’t stop there. You still have personal responsibility to conform your will to Gods and do good works to demonstrate your faith. If you fail to do that, you can lose your salvation…

 

[sambos671]

This part matches up with Catholic Doctrine:
Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal King dom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be bap tized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be con formed to God’s image.

However, it doesn’t stop there. You still have personal responsibility to conform your will to Gods and do good works to demonstrate your faith. If you fail to do that, you can lose your salvation…

I think you emphasise “lose your salvation” a little much. I don’t think the above statement saying anything different from what you said in regards to responsibility. You almost make it sound that you have to hang on by your finger nails to be saved. I don’t think that follows with the nature of God. It seems to me that though you can reject your salvation and “lose” it. That in effect is not the norm but the exception because to have faith is to have the Holy Spirit and he will convict you and seek you like the 1 lost sheep leaving the herd. I look at it this way you are redeemed and get the benefit of being able to please God by what you do. Before God gives you faith you do not have that capability. I see salvation as everything in the christian experience. Anything that seems to have me rely on myself to be saved seemed to be antithesis to the gosples.

 

[paul_c]

I think you emphasise “lose your salvation” a little much. I don’t think the above statement saying anything different from what you said in regards to responsibility. You almost make it sound that you have to hang on by your finger nails to be saved. I don’t think that follows with the nature of God. It seems to me that though you can reject your salvation and “lose” it. That in effect is not the norm but the exception because to have faith is to have the Holy Spirit and he will convict you and seek you like the 1 lost sheep leaving the herd. I look at it this way you are redeemed and get the benefit of being able to please God by what you do. Before God gives you faith you do not have that capability. I see salvation as everything in the christian experience. Anything that seems to have me rely on myself to be saved seemed to be antithesis to the gosples.

Just because you want everyone to be saved, doesn’t make it true. What happened to the Israelites? Were they all saved? It seems to me that an entire generation except Caleb and Joshua died in the desert without reaching the promised land because they failed to do God’s will. Later, 10 tribes of Israel were lost and all but a remnant of Judah were destroyed when they failed to do God’s will.

It is very dangerous to set your own personal bar too low. It might not be enough to sustain you. Instead, you should do everything in your power to do God’s will and then during the final judgement, humbly beg for mercy for your failures.

 

[sambos671]

Just because you want everyone to be saved, doesn’t make it true. What happened to the Israelites? Were they all saved? It seems to me that an entire generation except Caleb and Joshua died in the desert without reaching the promised land because they failed to do God’s will. Later, 10 tribes of Israel were lost and all but a remnant of Judah were destroyed when they failed to do God’s will.

It is very dangerous to set your own personal bar too low. It might not be enough to sustain you. Instead, you should do everything in your power to do God’s will and then during the final judgement, humbly beg for mercy for your failures.

You entirely did not get my point. I didn’t say everyone would be saved. However, once you’re in the stream of salvation its not a minor task of leaving it and I think its the exception rather than the rule. I don’t believe just because you’re baptised catholic you have faith or even a “saving” faith. I lived to long as a catholic to know that. But once you have that faith which is given by God through his grace he will “accomplish which I have commited to him against that day”. Salvation relies entirely on God and not your own efforts. Your own efforts are the result of salvation at work in you not the other way round. Working for your salvation and relying on your ability to accomplish it is futile you are unable. To rely on your ability for salvation is no different than Islam, or Budhism, or Hinduism, or any other faith that if you work hard enough and suffer enough you maybe will be saved. If that is also the case the Grace of God is void as it says in Galatians. And in my mind it is paganism and a works based religion.

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,*** are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?***

Then:

4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

 

[paul_c]

You entirely did not get my point. I didn’t say everyone would be saved. However, once you’re in the stream of salvation its not a minor task of leaving it and I think its the exception rather than the rule. I don’t believe just because you’re baptised catholic you have faith or even a “saving” faith. I lived to long as a catholic to know that. But once you have that faith which is given by God through his grace he will “accomplish which I have commited to him against that day”. Salvation relies entirely on God and not your own efforts. Your own efforts are the result of salvation at work in you not the other way round. Working for your salvation and relying on your ability to accomplish it is futile you are unable. To rely on your ability for salvation is no different than Islam, or Budhism, or Hinduism, or any other faith that if you work hard enough and suffer enough you maybe will be saved. If that is also the case the Grace of God is void as it says in Galatians. And in my mind it is paganism and a works based religion.:

I didn’t miss your point at all. I just disagree with it. Your quotes from Galatian’s are also misinterpretted. Paul argument with the Galatians was that they were reverting back to the Mosaic Laws after it had been decided at the Council of Jerusalem that Christianity did not require in effect, being Jewish. This is very clear from the rest of the Epistle, if you read it. He was saying that relying on salvation by following the Mosaic Law without faith was insufficient. Never does he say that good works are not necessary.

Do not delude yourself into believing with Faith without good works is sufficient. I won’t argue with you that good works are due to faith, because I think they are, but I will argue very strongly with you that faith without good works is meaningless.