Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

[sambos671]

I didn’t miss your point at all. I just disagree with it. Your quotes from Galatian’s are also misinterpretted. Paul argument with the Galatians was that they were reverting back to the Mosaic Laws after it had been decided at the Council of Jerusalem that Christianity did not require in effect, being Jewish. This is very clear from the rest of the Epistle, if you read it. He was saying that relying on salvation by following the Mosaic Law without faith was insufficient. Never does he say that good works are not necessary.

Do not delude yourself into believing with Faith without good works is sufficient. I won’t argue with you that good works are due to faith, because I think they are, but I will argue very strongly with you that faith without good works is meaningless.

I never said faith with out good works are sufficient but did state good works cannot occur without faith. My dispute with you is that you seem to imply that works save which is what the Mosaic law was getting at. It is impossible to be saved by works under the law. I’m stating you can’t even get to works with out faith and works is a result of faith not faith a result of works. And in your statement even if you complete works you only, possibly, maybe, and only if all the blocks are placed right attain salvation. I disagree with that. The catholic church states that we are saved by Grace. And not of our selves but by God. I see it this way:
Your drowning and will die. God pulls you out of the water and you get to stand on dry ground and live. everything that you do that keeps you on that dry ground keeps you safe from drowning but if you start playing by jumping back into the water you are no longer saved. Works maintian salvation doesn’t grant it.

 

[guanophore]

Paul didn’t consider it presumptuous to declare that he was on his way to heaven:

Yes, he did. He taught that the more mature attitude was to look forward with confident hope, and to strive, not to presume.

13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained. Phil 3:13-16

Paul knew that salvation would not be completed in this life, but the next.

God’s desire is for you to be assured of heaven right now:

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” Titus 1:2
“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.” 1 John 2:25

No, Fisher, it means what it says - “hope”. If one is assured, there is no need for hope! He has given us a promise, and we have entered into life, but we can also leave it.

To be born again, you must receive Jesus Christ by faith as your personal Savior and trust Him alone for your salvation. When you do this, you will be born into God's family:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12

Actually, Scripture says nothing anywhere about a “personal Savior by trust in Him alone”. This is a 19th century addition to the Bible, generated by American Fundamentalism. Scripture is clear that those who “receive” Christ were baptized.

Once in God's family, you become a co-heir with Jesus Christ:

“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ…” Romans 8:17

Yes, but we become members of His family through baptism.

As an heir, you don’t have to wonder about your destiny. You are promised:

“…an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,” 1 Peter 1:4

No, but you can sure walk out on your inheritance. God has given us free will, and anyone can tell Him where to 'stuff" that inheritance. Some do.

Isn't that beautiful? An eternal inheritance in heaven is already reserved for all those who become a child of God.

There is a bit more to entering into one’s inheritance that getting born again. Some that are born again fall away, squandering the inheritance.

Trust Christ right now. You' ll be glad you did:

You seem to be putting a strong evangelistic message across…

Stop and reason for a moment. Would God make us endure an entire lifetime, never knowing how we could escape the flames of hell and be assured of enjoying paradise with Him?

God owes no debt to any human.

Would a loving God say, "Do as many good works as you can, then keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best when you stand before Me someday."

The use of this polemic seems to indicate this is what you think Catholics may believe.

No, that's not love, that' s torture! That' s cruelty of the highest sort. A God of love would give us a clear, simple plan spelling out how to miss this awful place of torment and be assured of heaven.

This is your opinion, of course.

It's not a sin to presume you are going to heaven if you have been born into God's family through faith in Christ.

It is a grievious error. It would not be a sin for a person who did not know any better, but that still does not make it right.

It is a Biblical fact and a precious promise from the Lord Jesus. It is never presumptuous to take God at His Word. In fact,

What you are putting forth is your opinion of what the Scripture means. You are taking God at His Word however you interpret it. This is actually more reflective of arrogance than presumption.

God wants His children to rest in the fact that they have been born into His family and that their eternal destiny is settled:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:47

No one can pluck the sheep out of His hand, but they sure can jump out!

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Please do not mistake our patience with you preaching this “new gospel” that is not what we received from the Apostles as accepting what you are preaching. We know well it is a modern development.

What proof do you need? Paul told the Corinthians that the Christians are confident that once they leave their earthly bodies they will be present with Christ!

This is Catholic teaching from the beginning. Persons who die in a state of grace, with sanctity will be with the Lord. He Himself purifies them by His blood. Do you think you are telling us something we do not already believe?

 

[guanophore]

That sure sounds better than you never really know for sure. Then it leaves the impression “have I done enough to be saved?” Which is what protestants are getting up in the air about. I think better of Catholic dogma if it truely is how you pointed it out. You can be in the stream of salvation but jump out of it and perish. Just elect to stay in and God will do the rest.

Yes! God will keep us by His grace, all we need to do is trust and obey HIm. It is He who will sustain us until that Day, not ourselves. We cooperate with His grace, walking in the works of righteousness that He has prepared for us before the beginning of time. But, it is not the works that save us, but His grace, through faith, working in us through love.

 

[guanophore]

This part matches up with Catholic Doctrine:
Salvation is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal King dom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be bap tized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be con formed to God’s image.

However, it doesn’t stop there. You still have personal responsibility to conform your will to Gods and do good works to demonstrate your faith. If you fail to do that, you can lose your salvation…

I think it gives more clarity to say that one may fail to attain salvation. We believe that we are saved at baptism, and anyone who dies after that will go straight to heaven, washed clean. However, we do become sullied after this washing, and require purificaton and reconciliation. If a person lives after baptism, then one is obligated to the task of sanctification, during which we are “being saved”. At the end, when we pass from this life in right relationship with God (in a state of grace) then we will be glorified,and at that point have attained salvation. It is misleading to say “lost” when it has not yet been attained. This is my opinion.

 

[guanophore]

I think you emphasise “lose your salvation” a little much. I don’t think the above statement saying anything different from what you said in regards to responsibility.

I agree.

You almost make it sound that you have to hang on by your finger nails to be saved. I don’t think that follows with the nature of God.

Well, we may disagree on this point. However, I agree about the fingernails. Scripture uses words like, “strive”, “strain”, “press”, “struggle”, and “lay hold of that (grasp tightly) that which has laid hold”. This is not fingernails, but a whole body image!

It seems to me that though you can reject your salvation and “lose” it. That in effect is not the norm but the exception because to have faith is to have the Holy Spirit and he will convict you and seek you like the 1 lost sheep leaving the herd. I look at it this way you are redeemed and get the benefit of being able to please God by what you do. Before God gives you faith you do not have that capability. I see salvation as everything in the christian experience. Anything that seems to have me rely on myself to be saved seemed to be antithesis to the gosples.

Yes, this is very Catholic. However, I think it is more proper to note that salvation has not yet been completed, or attained, until we meet the Lord.

 

[paul_c]

I never said faith with out good works are sufficient but did state good works cannot occur without faith. My dispute with you is that you seem to imply that works save which is what the Mosaic law was getting at. It is impossible to be saved by works under the law. I’m stating you can’t even get to works with out faith and works is a result of faith not faith a result of works. And in your statement even if you complete works you only, possibly, maybe, and only if all the blocks are placed right attain salvation. I disagree with that. The catholic church states that we are saved by Grace. And not of our selves but by God. I see it this way:
Your drowning and will die. God pulls you out of the water and you get to stand on dry ground and live. everything that you do that keeps you on that dry ground keeps you safe from drowning but if you start playing by jumping back into the water you are no longer saved. Works maintian salvation doesn’t grant it.

Perhaps we are in agreement, if you agree that faith without works is dead. I absolutely agree that God’s grace comes first, followed by faith. Faith is then demonstrated through works. However, you can’t even start the salvation process without Grace and faith first. My point, is that you still need to cooperate with God’s plan by loving God and Loving your neighbor as yourself. There is some personal merit and responsibility in doing that. Can you be saved solely by your works : no. No one is so good that they don’t need God’s help and mercy. My plan is to do the best I possibly can and then beg humbly for mercy.

 

[Fisher]

]Perhaps we are in agreement, if you agree that faith without works is dead. I absolutely agree that God’s grace comes first, followed by faith.

Grace in mentioned 170 times in the Bible. Consider some of the ways it can be defined:

1. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. That is, grace is God doing good for us that we do not deserve. In the Bible, grace and mercy are like two heads of the same coin. Mercy is God withholding judgment or evil that I deserve; grace is God giving me blessing or good that I do not deserve. Because of God’s mercy, I do not receive the judgment of God against my sins; because of God’s grace, I receive eternal life and a promise of heaven though I do not deserve them. Both mercy and grace come to me though the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Grace can also be defined as God’s sufficiency or God’s fullness in the life of the believer. God told Paul, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness” (2Corinthians 12:9). That is, the grace of God in Paul enabled him and empowered him in his weakness. Another verse states, “And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work” (2Corinthians 9:8). God’s grace working in us supplies the sufficiency whereby we may abound to every good work. I like to call grace “God’s enoughness.” By this I mean that God is enough for us no matter what the situation we face.

This being the case, you can see that grace is first of all necessary for salvation. Ephesians 2:8 states, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” One aspect of salvation is called justification. That is the act by which we are declared just (righteous) before God on the basis of the payment Jesus Christ made for our sin. The Bible clearly teaches that we are justified by the grace of God (Romans 3:24; Titus 3:7).

But not only are we saved by the grace of God–we also serve the Lord and live the Christian life by the grace of God. The letters of Paul always speak of a blessing of grace for the believers (along with peace). Just for an example, Romans 1:7 states, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Paul is speaking to believers who are already saved and on their way to heaven, but he also recognizes that they need grace for living the Christian life. They need God’s strength and sufficiency.

A good verse to help explain this grace by which we live is 1Corinthians 15:10 where Paul testified, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.” It was God’s grace that made him what he was. It was God’s goodness working in him that made him the great servant of God he was.

So, obviously, we also need the grace of God. We need it first of all for salvation. Without the grace of God, we cannot have eternal life. However, we also need the grace of God for our daily walk with God. We are weak and prone to stray. Jesus told us that we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). But God provides daily strength through His grace working in us. We should seek this grace for living from him. Then, we should believe that He will provide what He has promised and walk with assurance that His grace is working in us.

 

[Fisher]

I agree.

Well, we may disagree on this point. However, I agree about the fingernails. Scripture uses words like, “strive”, “strain”, “press”, “struggle”, and “lay hold of that (grasp tightly) that which has laid hold”. This is not fingernails, but a whole body image!

Yes, this is very Catholic. However, I think it is more proper to note that salvation has not yet been completed, or attained, until we meet the Lord.

Eternal life starts before you die.

I believe in eternal security (or once in grace; always in grace) for a
large number of reasons. However, I also admit that there are a number of
doctrinal and practical problems that have to be dealt with. But that is
true no matter which way this is taught. But do not think that I take
this doctrine lightly. It matters, and it matters very much. If we can
lose our salvation, then we must have some **part in earning our salvation.**If we earn our salvation, then it is not by grace (which means God does
for us what we cannot do for ourselves).

Salvation is entirely a gift of God. True, we accept it, but we do not
earn it. When we accept it, God births us into His family and we become a
child of God (John 1:12). My children were born to me. And, though they
have not always been in good graces with me, they have never ceased to be
my children. And, though human parents might cruelly cast a child out of
their home, the Bible promises us that we can never be separated from the
love of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:35-38).
Can I stop being God’s child if I want to? Let me ask you: Can you stop
being your earthly father’s child even if you want to? Of course not–to
both questions. Besides, why would anyone want to cease being the child
of God? Why would anyone want to go to hell instead of heaven. They would
have to had lost their mind to want to stop being saved. I would not cast
my children out because they lost their mind; neither would God cast His
children out.

Often people will point out to me people they know that “got saved” and
later left the Lord and went back to sin. There are two possibilities.
One is that they were never saved in the first place. 1John 2:19 speaks
of a group of so-called believers who left the saints so that it might be
known that they were never really one of the saints. Many people go
through an experience or “get religion” for a time, but they are not
saved. Eventually, their lack of true spiritual life bears fruit and they
leave the God they never really knew.

The second possibility is that God is still dealing with them, though we
may not see it for a time. The Bible teaches that those who are true sons
of God will be chastened (whipped) when they stray from Him (Hebrews
12:5-7). In fact, he says that those who do not receive chastisement are
not His sons (Hebrews 12:8) but are illegitimate (the Bible uses a
stronger word here). Sometimes, the ways of the Lord work slowly over a
long period of time, but He is always working to bring His true children
back to Him.

But, when we are saved and truly born again, we will forever be one of
God’s children. We may stray and we may suffer for our disobedience, but
we will never cease to be His child. This shows us the greatness of the
salvation God has given us. Thanks be to His name.

 

[paul_c]

Fisher,
You can be a son and still walk away from your inheritance.

Frankly, God can give you the gift of grace but you can refuse to accept it by your actions. It’s still a gift. But a gift is never forced on the receiver. If you choose to turn your back on God (or your neighbor), and not accept his gift of grace, you bear the responsibility. This is free will and its another gift of God.

 

[Church_Militant]

Canon Came Before Catholic Councils

Don’t think so…:dts:

Prove it from historical facts. I can prove my position, but I am positive that you cannot. It’s n-C wishful thinking at best, but by all means try.

 

[sambos671]

Perhaps we are in agreement, if you agree that faith without works is dead. I absolutely agree that God’s grace comes first, followed by faith. Faith is then demonstrated through works. However, you can’t even start the salvation process without Grace and faith first. My point, is that you still need to cooperate with God’s plan by loving God and Loving your neighbor as yourself. There is some personal merit and responsibility in doing that. Can you be saved solely by your works : no. No one is so good that they don’t need God’s help and mercy. My plan is to do the best I possibly can and then beg humbly for mercy.

Then we are in agreement.

 

[guanophore]

Eternal life starts before you die.

As soon as we are born from above by water and spirit.

I believe in eternal security (or once in grace; always in grace) for a large number of reasons.

There are a large number of reasons that many have departed from the Apostolic faith in this area.

However, I also admit that there are a number of doctrinal and practical problems that have to be dealt with.

The most concerning that it is not the Teaching of Jesus.

But that is true no matter which way this is taught. But do not think that I take this doctrine lightly. It matters, and it matters very much. If we can lose our salvation, then we must have some **part in earning our salvation.**If we earn our salvation, then it is not by grace (which means God does
for us what we cannot do for ourselves).

Think of it this way. Something that results in death cannot necessarily give life. A bullet can take my life, but it cannot give me life. Through I can fail, through disbelief an disobedience to enter into the inheritance that God has set aside for me, I cannot adopt myself into His life, or create the eternal life that I have entered by my own free will.

I don’t agree with your conclusion, but I do agree that it is possible to fail to attain our hope, and that God has given us the privilege of participating in our salvation.

Salvation is entirely a gift of God. True, we accept it, but we do not earn it. When we accept it, God births us into His family and we become a
child of God (John 1:12). My children were born to me. And, though they have not always been in good graces with me, they have never ceased to be my children. And, though human parents might cruelly cast a child out of their home,

This is Catholic teaching.

the Bible promises us that we can never be separated from the love of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:35-38). Can I stop being God’s child if I want to? Let me ask you: Can you stop being your earthly father’s child even if you want to? Of course not–to both questions.

Of course not, but God’s love will not preserve us if we refuse to accept it. God will love us all the way through the gates of Hell.
Thought it is HIs good pleasure to give us the Kingdom, He will not form that Kingdom within us if we refuse Him.

“They will even deny the Master who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves.” 2 Peter 2:1

Luke 9:61-62
62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

2 Tim 2:11-13
11 The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
**if we deny him, he will also deny us; **13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful —
for he cannot deny himself.

Paul is writing to a believer about believers…

Besides, why would anyone want to cease being the child of God? Why would anyone want to go to hell instead of heaven. They would have to had lost their mind to want to stop being saved.

Sin is insidious.

I would not cast my children out because they lost their mind; neither would God cast His
children out.

His children deliberately and willfully choose to jump out of His hand.

Gal 5:3-6
4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love."

Often people will point out to me people they know that “got saved” and later left the Lord and went back to sin. There are two possibilities. One is that they were never saved in the first place. 1John 2:19 speaks of a group of so-called believers who left the saints so that it might be known that they were never really one of the saints. Many people go
through an experience or “get religion” for a time, but they are not
saved. Eventually, their lack of true spiritual life bears fruit and they leave the God they never really knew.

This is one reason that Catholics do not characterize people as “saved” or “unsaved”. If a person makes a profession of faith, and becomes a disciple, one must continue unto the last day. If one does not, then one has run the race in vain.

The second possibility is that God is still dealing with them, though we may not see it for a time. The Bible teaches that those who are true sons of God will be chastened (whipped) when they stray from Him (Hebrews
12:5-7). In fact, he says that those who do not receive chastisement are not His sons (Hebrews 12:8) but are illegitimate (the Bible uses a stronger word here). Sometimes, the ways of the Lord work slowly over a long period of time, but He is always working to bring His true children back to Him.

This is why Catholics do not try to separate the wheat from the tares.

 

[guanophore]

But, when we are saved and truly born again, we will forever be one of God’s children. We may stray and we may suffer for our disobedience, but we will never cease to be His child. This shows us the greatness of the
salvation God has given us. Thanks be to His name.

Not all the children are joined with the heavenly inheritance that has been set aside for them.

“Accursed children! 15 They have left the straight road and have gone astray,” 2 Peter 2:14-15

Jesus grieved that His chosen people walked away from their salvation:

Matt 23:37-39

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you, desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

He never stopped loving them, even from the cross.

 

[Contarini]

Do Catholics no longer believe in salvation by works?

Depends on what you mean by “salvation by works.”
The official Catholic position is that the works that the Holy Spirit produces in human beings, with the cooperation of the redeemed human will, are “meritorious” in the sense that they have value in God’s sight and are fittingly rewarded by eternal life.

Pope Benedict’s point is that this does not contradict “sola fide” if faith is defined in such a way as to be intrinsically connected with love and hence with good works.

Where I do see a conflict–and would be delighted if Pope Benedict were modifying the traditional understanding in this regard–is in the Council of Trent’s condemnation of the idea that faith is lost by every mortal sin. If the faith that is a gift of God is always accompanied by charity (as I believe and as most Protestants believe), then it would follow that every mortal sin would result in the loss of faith in the strict and proper Christian sense.

Obviously we are dealing with two different senses of faith here. I’d like to see ecumenical Catholics address this issue in more detail.

Edwin

 

[SSTeacher]

Depends on what you mean by “salvation by works.”
The official Catholic position is that the works that the Holy Spirit produces in human beings, with the cooperation of the redeemed human will, are “meritorious” in the sense that they have value in God’s sight and are fittingly rewarded by eternal life.

Pope Benedict’s point is that this does not contradict “sola fide” if faith is defined in such a way as to be intrinsically connected with love and hence with good works.

Where I do see a conflict–and would be delighted if Pope Benedict were modifying the traditional understanding in this regard–is in the Council of Trent’s condemnation of the idea that faith is lost by every mortal sin. If the faith that is a gift of God is always accompanied by charity (as I believe and as most Protestants believe), then it would follow that every mortal sin would result in the loss of faith in the strict and proper Christian sense.

Obviously we are dealing with two different senses of faith here. I’d like to see ecumenical Catholics address this issue in more detail.

Edwin

Edwin,

What I mean by works is physical activity or movement. Take three examples that were commonly seen in the Early Church: praying, almsgiving and fasting. Would any of these three activities, laudable as they may be, save the person who is engaging in them? I would answer that they would not. My view is that of a Protestant. So why engage in them, then? I would answer that the motivation is – or, at least, ought to be – charity i.e. love.

I don’t quite see how a Catholic can give that same straight answer without adding some sort of qualification. There seem to me to be all sorts of other rules and regulation involved that must intrude into the picture and inevitably force even the most well–meaning Catholic into a “works” mindset. The most obvious one to me is the one you mentioned in your post – the Catholic belief in the idea that some sins are mortal sins. I should have thought that this belief would, at some time or another, make each and every Catholic very frightened indeed. And I don’t mean frightened in the sense of being in awe of God, either. I mean fear for self – petrified of what one’s fate or destiny might eventually be.

Well, fear drives out love. Agreed? If you’re doing things out of fear – because you’re afraid of the consequences if you don’t do them – then you’re not doing it out of love. And if love isn’t the primary motivation then the action – however noble it may – defaults into the category of works. In what other category could it possibly be?

Do you follow my reasoning and see my difficulty?

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[Cristiano]

I think that a simple way to express the Catholic point of view is that it is easy to “talk the talk”. However, if you really have faith in God, hope for salvation, and love for God and your neighbor then you also “walk the walk”. If you don’t then you are lying.

 

[paul_c]

Edwin,

What I mean by works is physical activity or movement. Take three examples that were commonly seen in the Early Church: praying, almsgiving and fasting. Would any of these three activities, laudable as they may be, save the person who is engaging in them? I would answer that they would not. My view is that of a Protestant. So why engage in them, then? I would answer that the motivation is – or, at least, ought to be – charity i.e. love.

The Catholic perspective is as follows:
God provides his grace to start us on the path of conversion.
With that grace follows the three theological virtues, Faith, Hope and Charity/Love and as St. Paul said so eloquently , the greatest of these is love. Love is an action verb . It means doing good without expectation of reward. These constitute the good works that must follow faith and hope to validate them… As St. Paul said, if you don’t have Love, you are like a clanging gong.(to quote 1Corinthians 13)

I don’t quite see how a Catholic can give that same straight answer without adding some sort of qualification. There seem to me to be all sorts of other rules and regulation involved that must intrude into the picture and inevitably force even the most well–meaning Catholic into a “works” mindset. The most obvious one to me is the one you mentioned in your post – the Catholic belief in the idea that some sins are mortal sins. I should have thought that this belief would, at some time or another, make each and every Catholic very frightened indeed. And I don’t mean frightened in the sense of being in awe of God, either. I mean fear for self – petrified of what one’s fate or destiny might eventually be.

Well, fear drives out love. Agreed? If you’re doing things out of fear – because you’re afraid of the consequences if you don’t do them – then you’re not doing it out of love. And if love isn’t the primary motivation then the action – however noble it may – defaults into the category of works. In what other category could it possibly be?

Do you follow my reasoning and see my difficulty?

Grace and peace,
Mick

So as you can see from the above, Catholics are not dominated by fear of mortal sin, but by love. No true Catholic is ever motivated by fear of Hell. In fact, I have never, ever heard a fire and brimstone sermon from any Catholic priest. Just the same, we recognize that we must work on our own purification, increasing our love and decreasing our selfcenteredness to prepare ourselves for our meeting with our lord. Those that grow complacent because they think they have no personal responsibility for their own salvation do not understand the scriptures and ignore the very straight forward warnings of St. James and even our lord in Matt 7:21-23. Faith alone is dead and all those that call Lord, Lord will not have eternal life, but only those that do the will of the Father… Once Saved always saved, denies free will, as well…

 

[SSTeacher]

No true Catholic is ever motivated by fear of Hell. In fact, I have never, ever heard a fire and brimstone sermon from any Catholic priest. Just the same, we recognize that we must work on our own purification, increasing our love and decreasing our selfcenteredness to prepare ourselves for our meeting with our lord. Those that grow complacent because they think they have no personal responsibility for their own salvation do not understand the scriptures and ignore the very straight forward warnings of St. James and even our lord in Matt 7:21-23. Faith alone is dead and all those that call Lord, Lord will not have eternal life, but only those that do the will of the Father… Once Saved always saved, denies free will, as well…

Paul c,

Your blanket assertion that “No true Catholic is ever motivated by fear of Hell” surprises me. How do you know that? And apropos a fire and brimstone sermon from any Catholic priest that you’ve never ever heard I have to say, with the utmost respect, that your logic herein isn’t exactly unassailable with regard to the inference that you’d apparently like me to draw.

I don’t see any logical reason as to why a “true Catholic” (what other category of Catholic did you have in mind?) shouldn’t be motivated by the fear of Hell. Hell is, after all, one of the four last things so it’s perhaps something all Christians ought to think about. And one of your own, Jesuit priest Father F.X. Schouppe, has written a book for Catholics with the title, Hell Plus How To Avoid Hell. Still, he lived back in the nineteenth century and perhaps Catholics approached their faith differently back then?

I think it likely that those in the Reformed Church would contest your closing suggestion that “Once Saved always saved, denies free will, as well” but since this doctrine is unrelated to any point I’ve made, I see nothing to be gained by addressing it from my Arminian perspective.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[paul_c]

SSTeacher,
I’m taking issue with your original thesis that Catholics are motivated by Fear to do good works. Why is your opinion of Catholics so low? When I explained that this was completely outside my Catholic experience, you then took issue with that, saying that my experience was illogical and that we must be motivated by fear. Doesn’t this simply betray your biases?

 

[nilofc]

On the contrary, I think its actually the Protestants which is more motivated by the fear of hell. I mean how can you explain “Once saved, always Saved”?

You cannot mask your fears by pretending that it will not be able to grab you because you developed a new system of belief. You really need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

A hungry lion will devour you no matter how hard you believe that you can just walk by and think its a harmless house cat.