Do Catholics really think abortion is the same as murder?

[TheRealJuliane]

If that is your stance, it seems to me then you’d consider that most catholics, including priests, nuns, bishops and maybe even the pope are not really catholic. I don’t think most catholics do anything to stop abortions other than voting pro life.

Where would one begin to try to make a difference? I’m thinking maybe I should get involved somehow.

You can find a 40 Days for Life location and go and pray there. You can take sidewalk counseling courses through your local pro-life coalition or organization and try to talk women and men out of having an abortion. You can volunteer to work in a crisis pregnancy clinic. You can start a pro-life group on your college campus. Help raise money for your state’s legislative lobbying groups. National Right to Life is a good place to start. How about going to the March for Life in January? It’s the 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, a big date.

 

[mgoforth]

If that is your stance, it seems to me then you’d consider that most catholics, including priests, nuns, bishops and maybe even the pope are not really catholic. I don’t think most catholics do anything to stop abortions other than voting pro life.

Honestly, we can’t know any of those assertions are true. Do you really think that the Pope, bishops and priests all around the world are not praying for an end to abortion? Preaching homilies about the evil of abortion? Their job is to instruct and guide us, even though there are many priests who go above and beyond their obligations. Father Frank Pavone and Priests for Life.

We are called to take actions in the world, based on the moral teachings we receive from the priests.

Not everyone at NASA puts on a spacesuit and goes to the International Space Station, right? That’s the role that everyone sees. But all the other behind-the-scenes jobs - from the person in charge at Mission Control to the janitors keeping everything clean - are necessary and important for success.

“Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11

 

[3rday]

Yes, abortion is murder, and we can and should do something about it.
My daughter went to an anti-abortion demonstration at an abortion clinic some years ago, and it all felt good to her. Later she became a counselor at an anti-abortion clinic.
We support her in all these things. Right now she and her husband have a
wonderfully cute little baby and she is caring for him at home, but will go back
to counseling later, I am sure. And my wife has now also volunteered for the job.

Is it not the right thing to do for the Lord? The only thing to do?

 

[Newbie2]

1 out of every 4 American women has had an abortion. That includes Catholics as well as all other religions. There is a lot of shame and fear of judgment in those secrets.

Locations - 40 Days for Life Fall 2012

I think those statistics are incorrect, or at least misleading. Methinks that particular claim does not take into account that many women have multiple abortions; thus while dividing the number abortion by the number of women in the country, it appears that more women have had abortions than actually has occured.

We could discuss statistics and statistical methodology all day; nonetheless, the number of abortions is staggering.

To address the OP, yes, MOST Catholics think abortion = Murder IMHO. Why not the uproar?

Two things, methinks:

1. We have to pick our battles the we as individuals choose to fight and how to fight them. Not everyone can directly involve themselves in, for example, picketing abortion clinics or lobbying legislators.

That being said, we can and should avail ourselves of the most powerful weapon…Prayer!

1. There is some degree of hopelessness as to fighting abortion in this country. Likely none of us will live to see it ever decrease significantly or, Lord willing, go away.

That’s not to say the battles should not be fought, but if Joe Average Catholic is not convinced that his 1 hour rosary at the local clinic or that his letters to his legislators will do nothing…it’s understandable why the public outrage doesn’t seem to be there.

 

[mgoforth]

…but if Joe Average Catholic is not convinced that his 1 hour rosary at the local clinic or that his letters to his legislators will do nothing…it’s understandable why the public outrage doesn’t seem to be there.

I’m convinced that the rosaries, writing legislators, counselling women, etc has saved at least some babies. And since each life is of infinite value, it seems like a no-brainer.

Any life we save is a human being who would have otherwise been murdered!

If all our efforts from Roe v Wade until today had only saved one single child, it would still be worth it. I guarantee you that single child would say it was worth it!

 

[catholictiger]

Hello,

I am a catholic and am very pro life.

When you look at the teaching of our church, abortion is the same thing as murder.

Why is it that we don’t protest by the millions about abortion. Is it that we catholics see abortion as bad, but not as bad as a cold blooded murder? I see pro life protests here and there outside hospitals and outside planned parenthoods, but would we be doing simple protests if instead of pregnant women going in there for abortions, they instead took 5 year old kids in to put them down?

I have a feeling we’d be going crazy if there were 5 year old kids being taken into planned parenthoods and being killed. So why don’t we do the same for abortions?

what is murder the killing of an innocent person on purpose

what is abortion the killing of an innocent person on purpose

I see no difference.

 

[mgoforth]

what is murder the killing of an innocent person on purpose

what is abortion the killing of an innocent person on purpose

I see no difference.

I’d say nobody but the most closed-minded, hard-hearted pro-choice advocate would see any difference if they were to watch a live video of an abortion. Ask Abby Johnson about that.

 

[johnnyjones]

I have to wonder how strongly the “murder” ideology of abortion is held. Like the OP said, would most be willing to have as a leader a person who advocted the killing of fully formed 5 year old kids? Murder is murder, there are no degrees. I believe abortion is the ending of a human life, and I also see that inside the womb, a less formed or early staged human is addressed differently by those standing against advocates of abortion.

Would you feel comfortable with a non repentent (because he doesn’t see it as wrong) pro “choice” catholic getting communion at mass or leading masses of people as a political figure? Apparently multitudes do because murder in the womb has a different effect than murder outside the womb…

 

[catholictiger]

I’d say nobody but the most closed-minded, hard-hearted pro-choice advocate would see any difference if they were to watch a live video of an abortion. Ask Abby Johnson about that.

I saw not an ultra sound of an abortion but a video of an abortion, a pro life guy showed me it once, kinda regret it now one of those things you can’t un see.

 

[Dies_Irae_1]

We may view and react to abortion and murder differently because one is legal while the other is not.

It’s not easy to go out there and protest against something that is legal. You can’t physically restrain someone who is doing nothing illegal.

 

[JRKH]

I believe that to an extent the question we must ask - and what I think that the OP is trying to get us to think about - is, if we truly believe this is mass murder on the scale of the holocaust, why aren’t we willing to **peaceably ** engage in things that the government, the people and the press simply cannot ignore.
Mass sit-ins that force arrests, refusal to pay fines forcing the courts and jail systems to become even more overcrowded than they already are…All in the name of saving life, not taking life…Things like this have been used successfully in the past…

If we believe that Abortion is murder, why are we not willing to risk jail for that belief?

It is a troubling question…Not one I’m sure I have a good answer to…excuses, yes…a good answer…

Lord forgive me.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=TheRealJuliane;9906371]and, vote the killers out of office!!/QUOTE]

To which I ad AMEN!

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;9910625]I believe that to an extent the question we must ask - and what I think that the OP is trying to get us to think about - is, if we truly believe this is mass murder on the scale of the holocaust, why aren’t we willing to **peaceably ** engage in things that the government, the people and the press simply cannot ignore.
Mass sit-ins that force arrests, refusal to pay fines forcing the courts and jail systems to become even more overcrowded than they already are…All in the name of saving life, not taking life…Things like this have been used successfully in the past…

If we believe that Abortion is murder, why are we not willing to risk jail for that belief?

It is a troubling question…Not one I’m sure I have a good answer to…excuses, yes…a good answer…

Lord forgive me.

Peace
James

Hi James,

God calles Aborting Murder; are we NOT too?

And WHAT does GOD expect; DEMAND that ALL Christians Do about it?

God bless my friend,

Pat /PJM

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,

God calles Aborting Murder; are we NOT too?

Of course not…did I give that impression??

And WHAT does GOD expect; DEMAND that ALL Christians Do about it?

That is the question. What is the answer.

God bless my friend,

Pat /PJM

And you my friend

Peace
James

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I believe that to an extent the question we must ask - and what I think that the OP is trying to get us to think about - is, if we truly believe this is mass murder on the scale of the holocaust, why aren’t we willing to **peaceably ** engage in things that the government, the people and the press simply cannot ignore.
Mass sit-ins that force arrests, refusal to pay fines forcing the courts and jail systems to become even more overcrowded than they already are…All in the name of saving life, not taking life…Things like this have been used successfully in the past…

If we believe that Abortion is murder, why are we not willing to risk jail for that belief?

It is a troubling question…Not one I’m sure I have a good answer to…excuses, yes…a good answer…

Lord forgive me.

Peace
James

As I stated earlier in the thread, tactics such as peaceful (and some not so peaceful) sit-ins have indeed been used, especially over the first several years after Roe v. Wade was passed. It was largely INEFFECTIVE and in fact, the images of “terrorists” (the word wasn’t used then, but it is now) are still very powerful and cause the general public to turn against pro-lifers. As difficult as it is to accept this, it simply DOES NOT WORK to storm the abortion centers and try to shut them down. Abortion is the law of the land and we have to work to undermine this, without giving the abortion industry greater ammunition against us.

Very few people are willing to be arrested in the name of the cause, of any cause these days. You can see that as a failing; perhaps it is. We have to do what we can do, and being locked up only deprives our families to what end? We look like the crazy terrorists. No, in these days of hate crime legislation, better we should be careful and do all things that HELP save babies.

Just through prayer and fasting, especially in front of abortion clinics, the results of 40 Days for Life are:

1,894 individual campaigns have taken place in 440 cities
More than 525,000 have joined together in an historic display of unity to pray and fast for an end to abortion
More than 15,000 church congregations have participated in the 40 Days for Life campaigns
**Reports document 5,928 lives that have been spared from abortion — and those are just the ones we know about**
69 abortion workers have quit their jobs and walked away from the abortion industry
24 abortion facilities completely shut down following local 40 Days for Life campaigns
Hundreds of women and men have been spared from the tragic effects of abortion, including a lifetime of regrets
More than 2,100 news stories have been featured in newspapers, magazines, radio shows and TV programs from coast to coast ... and overseas
Many people with past abortion experiences have stepped forward to begin post-abortion healing and recovery

This is POWERFUL. It was God-sent.

 

[mgoforth]

I saw not an ultra sound of an abortion but a video of an abortion, a pro life guy showed me it once, kinda regret it now one of those things you can’t un see.

Yes, I understand. But it’s real and it’s happening thousands of times a day in our country. We should all have to watch it at least once.

 

[mgoforth]

I believe that to an extent the question we must ask - and what I think that the OP is trying to get us to think about - is, if we truly believe this is mass murder on the scale of the holocaust, why aren’t we willing to **peaceably ** engage in things that the government, the people and the press simply cannot ignore.
Mass sit-ins that force arrests, refusal to pay fines forcing the courts and jail systems to become even more overcrowded than they already are…All in the name of saving life, not taking life…Things like this have been used successfully in the past…

If we believe that Abortion is murder, why are we not willing to risk jail for that belief?

It is a troubling question…Not one I’m sure I have a good answer to…excuses, yes…a good answer…

Lord forgive me.

Peace
James

That’s a difficult question you pose, James. It makes me think of the early Christian martyrs in the Roman Empire and I wonder what they would do in our present situation? Would they stage a sit-in? I have no idea…

I don’t know of any overt actions (like protests) that they took to defend the faith, other than refusing to stop worshipping Christ or start worshipping false gods even when threatened with death. I know that as private citizens and Christians we shouldn’t use violence or coersion against our fellow man…I honestly don’t think that’s what God would want.

My question is, where’s the holy “line in the sand” that we draw? I think the HHS mandate is rubbing right up against that line…but what would it look like if the government clearly stepped over it? Perhaps federal or state funding that was specifically earmarked for abortion? I really don’t know the answer…but I’m afraid that we may find out in the near future. I think the majority of the public is becoming less and less comfortable with unlimited abortion…but there are also some very loud and very powerful people with a pro-abortion agenda in our government.

 

[Richard320]

Yes, it is the same.

In many ways it’s worse, because the victim didn’t do anything wrong, ever.

There is somewhat less public outrage because nobody knew the victim. There are no pictures in the newspaper or on TV, no interviews with police spokesmen, no publicity at all.

I don’t know what part of Los Angeles you live in, but if you’re out in the San Gabriel Valley: 40daysforlife.com/westcovina

 

[JRKH]

As I stated earlier in the thread, tactics such as peaceful (and some not so peaceful) sit-ins have indeed been used, especially over the first several years after Roe v. Wade was passed. It was largely INEFFECTIVE and in fact, the images of “terrorists” (the word wasn’t used then, but it is now) are still very powerful and cause the general public to turn against pro-lifers. As difficult as it is to accept this, it simply DOES NOT WORK to storm the abortion centers and try to shut them down. Abortion is the law of the land and we have to work to undermine this, without giving the abortion industry greater ammunition against us.

Yes abortion is the law of the land… but that in itself is not an excuse. Other unjust laws have been the “law of the land”.
But I do understand your point. There are a lot of factors that go into choosing the best tactics.

Very few people are willing to be arrested in the name of the cause, of any cause these days. You can see that as a failing; perhaps it is. We have to do what we can do, and being locked up only deprives our families to what end? We look like the crazy terrorists. No, in these days of hate crime legislation, better we should be careful and do all things that HELP save babies.

Yes I have to think that it is a failing considering the moral crime being perpetrated…but again, I bow to the idea of needing to choose the most effective means of resistance.

Just through prayer and fasting, especially in front of abortion clinics, the results of 40 Days for Life are:

1,894 individual campaigns have taken place in 440 cities
More than 525,000 have joined together in an historic display of unity to pray and fast for an end to abortion
More than 15,000 church congregations have participated in the 40 Days for Life campaigns
**Reports document 5,928 lives that have been spared from abortion — and those are just the ones we know about**
69 abortion workers have quit their jobs and walked away from the abortion industry
24 abortion facilities completely shut down following local 40 Days for Life campaigns
Hundreds of women and men have been spared from the tragic effects of abortion, including a lifetime of regrets
More than 2,100 news stories have been featured in newspapers, magazines, radio shows and TV programs from coast to coast ... and overseas
Many people with past abortion experiences have stepped forward to begin post-abortion healing and recovery

This is POWERFUL. It was God-sent.

This is most heartening…Thanks for sharing.

Just to note…I am a firm believer in the necessity of changing hearts as being more necessary than changing laws. We simply cannot hope to change the law - er - I mean the court decisions…without a very strong shift in public opinion.

Peace
James

 

[livingwordunity]

The Vicar of Christ himself has called abortion murder because that’s what it is.

"The moral gravity of procured abortion is apparent in all its truth if we recognize that ***we are dealing with murder ***and, in particular, when we consider the specific elements involved. The one eliminated is a human being at the very beginning of life. No one more absolutely innocent could be imagined. In no way could this human being ever be considered an aggressor, much less an unjust aggressor! He or she is weak, defenceless, even to the point of lacking that minimal form of defence consisting in the poignant power of a newborn baby’s cries and tears. The unborn child is totally entrusted to the protection and care of the woman carrying him or her in the womb. And yet sometimes it is precisely the mother herself who makes the decision and asks for the child to be eliminated, and who then goes about having it done.

It is true that the decision to have an abortion is often tragic and painful for the mother, insofar as the decision to rid herself of the fruit of conception is not made for purely selfish reasons or out of convenience, but out of a desire to protect certain important values such as her own health or a decent standard of living for the other members of the family. Sometimes it is feared that the child to be born would live in such conditions that it would be better if the birth did not take place. Nevertheless, these reasons and others like them, however serious and tragic, can never justify the deliberate killing of an innocent human being." - Evangelium Vitae