Do Catholics teach and believe the Last Supper was propitiatory?

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Duane1966 said:
Notice, the blood that the Apostles drank at the Last Supper, is the blood that is shed on the Cross.

To enter into the Old Covenant, you had to eat the Lamb. Jesus is telling the Apostles right here to enter into the New Covenant, you have to eat His body and drink His blood.
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“To enter into the Old Covenant, you had to eat the Lamb”

where do you see that?

Exodus 12
Ex12
6 Each family must take care of its animal until the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, when the animals are to be killed. 7 Some of the blood must be put on the two doorposts and above the door of each house where the animals are to be eaten. 8 That night the animals are to be roasted and eaten, together with bitter herbs and thin bread made without yeast. 9 Don’t eat the meat raw or boiled. The entire animal, including its head, legs, and insides, must be roasted. 10 Eat what you want that night, and the next morning burn whatever is left. 11 When you eat the meal, be dressed and ready to travel. Have your sandals on, carry your walking stick in your hand, and eat quickly. This is the Passover Festival in honor of me, your Lord.
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12 That same night I will pass through Egypt and kill the first-born son in every family and the first-born male of all animals. I am the Lord, and I will punish the gods of Egypt. 13 The blood on the houses will show me where you live, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. Then you won’t be bothered by the terrible disasters I will bring on Egypt.
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What was it that caused the Angel of Death to passover the house?

Was it …
v13 The blood on the houses will show me where you live, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you.

**or **

blood must be put on the two doorposts and above the door of each house
and the animals are to be roasted
and eaten
and with bitter herbs
and with thin bread made without yeast.
and The entire animal, including its head, legs, and insides, must be roasted. (not boiled)
and next morning burn whatever is left.
and be dressed
and be ready to travel
and Have your sandals on,
and carry your walking stick in your hand,
and eat quickly.

Why did you only add eating to the the commands of God to enter the Old Covenant?

IOW if you are going appeal Ex 12 to include eating as a requirement for the Angel of Death to passover , then why not add wearing sandals?
 
Wannano said:
Yes it certainly does because it has always been presented as an important reminder, a hallowed moment. Even though we see it as spiritual the words …the body of Christ or this is my body broken for you…is spoken to the recipient. A Holy moment of thanksgiving is not “just” a symbol.
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Eating bread and wine does not remind me of Jesus. Sorry, but that’s the truth.
 
alwayswill said:
“To enter into the Old Covenant, you had to eat the Lamb”

where do you see that?

Exodus 12

What was it that caused the Angel of Death to passover the house?

Was it …
v13 The blood on the houses will show me where you live, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you.

**or **

blood must be put on the two doorposts and above the door of each house
and the animals are to be roasted
and eaten
and with bitter herbs
and with thin bread made without yeast.
and The entire animal, including its head, legs, and insides, must be roasted. (not boiled)
and next morning burn whatever is left.
and be dressed
and be ready to travel
and Have your sandals on,
and carry your walking stick in your hand,
and eat quickly.

Why did you only add eating to the the commands of God to enter the Old Covenant?

IOW if you are going appeal Ex 12 to include eating as a requirement for the Angel of Death to passover , then why not add wearing sandals?
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Again, from Dr. Scott Hahn:
Well, go back to the Old Testament, to the book of Exodus. Suppose that night as head of my household and father, I sacrificed an unblemished lamb with no broken bones, and I sprinkled his blood on the door post, and then I said, "Family, we’re safe, let’s go to bed’, and we went to bed. I’d wake up in the morning to tragedy. My firstborn would be dead. Why? You had to eat the lamb. It isn’t enough to kill him. That is the satisfaction for sin, but the ultimate goal of sacrifice is not blood and gore and God making sure He sees the death. The ultimate goal is to restore communion, to have fellowship with God restored. And that’s what’s signified by eating the lamb. Who shares a common meal? Family. What is this a sign of? Covenant. And what is a covenant? A sacred family bond. In the Old Testament any family that sacrificed a lamb and sprinkled the blood had to eat the lamb. It wasn’t enough to say, ‘Well we don’t like lamb do we, kids? Why don’t we make lamb cookies? Little lamb wafers that symbolize the lamb? We’ll eat those and those’ll be enough, right? Symbolic presence of the lamb, and all that?’ No, you’d wake up and you’d be dead. You ate the lamb and you burned what was left. But you ate the lamb to reestablish and restore communion with your heavenly Father through His firstborn Son and Lamb. That’s the way it was in the Old Testament, and St. Paul recognizes that it’s still the way it is in the new covenant, only in spades, only with more glory. Why? Because Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Once and for all on calvary he’s been put to death, therefore_what? Therefore we’ve nothing to do. Just celebrate the sacrifice, which is over and done with_ No, something’s missing. We need to eat the Lamb. We need to receive the Lamb to restore communion and to complete the sacrifice and to keep the feast . It’s proper, and we now judge it to be necessary. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, “Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed and now let us celebrate the feast.” And the next five chapters in many ways St. Paul describes how the Eucharist is to be celebrated, because it’s the culmination of the Passover sacrifice.
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Covenants were always sealed by the meal. No meal, no covenant. No Last Supper, no new covenant. The way it always worked.
 
Duane1966 said:
Again, from Dr. Scott Hahn: Covenants were always sealed by the meal. No meal, no covenant. No Last Supper, no new covenant. The way it always worked.
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My question is why start at verse 12 in Exodus 12?

MJ
 
alwayswill;14329902]
I believe God’s wrath was appeased only at the Cross: the sacrificial Atonement was made only at the Cross; propitiation was made only at the Cross.
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Your opinion is in direct contradiction to 2000 years of Christianity, plus the biblical revelation of Jesus fulfilling His Jewish Passover covenant, In Himself as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

The Last supper and the cross is One act of God, which can be summed up in the two words Jesus said on the cross; “It is Finished”.

What did Jesus finish? Jesus finished HIs Last Supper (New Covenant) on the Cross. If you know the Psalm Jesus sang on the cross, is one of the Passover Psalms which concludes the Old Covenant Passover. Something to grasp at here.

Are you familiar with the little Hallel’s (psalms), and the great Hallel (Psalm) ?, that Jesus sang at the last supper with His disciples and “finished” it on the Cross.

Peace be with you
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Your opinion is in direct contradiction to 2000 years of Christianity, plus the biblical revelation of Jesus fulfilling His Jewish Passover covenant, In Himself as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

The Last supper and the cross is One act of God, which can be summed up in the two words Jesus said on the cross; “It is Finished”.

What did Jesus finish? Jesus finished HIs Last Supper (New Covenant) on the Cross. If you know the Psalm Jesus sang on the cross, is one of the Passover Psalms which concludes the Old Covenant Passover. Something to grasp at here.

Peace be with you
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This is true. And He says it after He drinks the fourth cup. zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/4cp.html
 
Wannano said:
That is truly too bad, Jesus instructed us to do this in remembrance of Him.
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Actually, He said eat His body and drink His blood. He never said eat bread and drink wine in remembrance.
 
Wannano said:
That is truly too bad, Jesus instructed us to do this in remembrance of Him.
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And I do. I remember what He did, and I receive what did it. The bread and wine are accidents. They do not remind me of Him. They remind me of nourishment (bread) and celebration (wine). I remember His words:
“Take, eat; this is my body.”And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
I do not understand how eating bread and drinking wine helps people remember what Jesus did. But if it is an actual participation in His sacrifice, and the passover meal of the New Covenant, well that means something to me. I take it very serious. I examine my faith and works, my heart and prayers. I give thanks for counting me worthy for God to die, so that I may live.
 
rcwitness said:
And I do. I remember what He did, and I receive what did it. The bread and wine are accidents. They do not remind me of Him. They remind me of nourishment (bread) and celebration (wine). I remember His words:
“Take, eat; this is my body.”And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
I do not understand how eating bread and drinking wine helps people remember what Jesus did. But if it is an actual participation in His sacrifice, and the passover meal of the New Covenant, well that means something to me. I take it very serious. I examine my faith and works, my heart and prayers. I give thanks for counting me worthy for God to die, so that I may live.
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I think so often we all talk past each other. Eating the bread and drinking the wine in a framework of the words He spoke and with sincere desire to follow Him is participation in those things you mention. You would be invited to join with me at the table in my church based on what you profess above.I also understand, really I do, that you would probably not find the fulfillment in our communion that you experience at Mass. We are all conditioned to our understanding. Maybe the only thing we can agree on 100% is that someday , maybe sooner than later, we will find out how Jesus really meant it all to be, and what variations we brought to the scene were acceptable to Him.
 
rcwitness said:
Eating bread and wine does not remind me of Jesus. Sorry, but that’s the truth.
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You could always do what some Catholics do: wear a chain around your neck with a likeness of the Eucharist suspended from it.
 
Wannano said:
maybe sooner than later, we will find out how Jesus really meant it all to be, and what variations we brought to the scene were acceptable to Him.
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How could your Church not be sure?

MJ
 
Duane1966 said:
Again, from Dr. Scott Hahn: Covenants were always sealed by the meal. No meal, no covenant. No Last Supper, no new covenant. The way it always worked.
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nope: factually not true.
when I get a moment I can show specific Biblical examples on “how are covenants sealed on the OT” (or just google that question)

Nevertheless; not all covenants are propitiatory.

I say God’s wrath was appeased only on the Cross because of what Christ did.
You are saying God’s wrath was appeased at the Last Supper.

I maintain that between the Last Supper and Cross, God’s wrath was still un-appeased.
You believe that between the Last Supper and Cross, God’s wrath was already appeased.

Did i correctly state your view?
 
Actually, God’s “wrath” is appeased, NOT by his Blood, but by faith in his Blood.
Here are quotes on Propitiation:
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
“Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
“so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people”

He shed his blood to offer the perfect sacrifice, being the High Priest, but then he turns back from the face of God to the people, to us, to give the flesh and blood of the sacrifice.
Both God and the People must participate in the work of the High Priest, both must partake of what was offered for propitiation to be actual.
To be coarse, God receives the life given in love to him, and we eat the carcass. Then God in loves the Son and gives his life to the Son - his carcass is again his living body - ooh, and to think it is in us - his soul, his Spirit, his divine Life is in us wholly also, we who ate his Flesh and drank his Blood. He died so we would have living Bread to eat, living Water to drink that wells up into eternal life.

We believe Him so we eat his Flesh, we believe in his Blood, so we drink it, and there is participation in propitiation. We are friends.

The sacrificial rite is not complete, the propitiation is not complete, until both parties complete their part -
God receives the life (Jesus commends his life into his Father’s hands)
The people act according to the directive of the high priest (Consume the Body and Blood)
God ratifies the covenant (putting life back in the body of his Beloved)
The people live as the covenant people (Faith active in Love - wow, that is how Jesus lived, and lives in us who partake of him)
 
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