Do Catholics worship the Eucharist?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Oh, Triune, as if I didn’t know this already… You forget…nobody has agonized over the Anglican-or-Catholic thing more than yours truly! I know Anglicanism, bruthah…not to the level of Gandalf, uh, I mean, GKC, but I am aware of the theology and Calvinist creepings into Cranmer’s writings and belief system. Martin Bucer tickled his ear and mindset as did a few other Calvinists in those days.

Ha.

Well, the 39 Articles are very “Protestant” on the issue of adoration. Because the Articles present a Reformed understanding of the Supper, they don’t consider it to be His true body and blood. Therefore, I suppose it would only be logical not to adore it or process with it.

From a Lutheran perspective, the eucharist is surely worthy of worship because it IS Christ. Worship at the receiving of Christ is entirely appropriate. However, we are not given any instruction to adore it (as in a monstrance) or process with it, therefore, we don’t.

 

[GKC]

I love Toto; went to one of their concerts two years ago

Was it in Kansas?

GKC

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ignoring those 39 Articles again…easy now!

Yes i worship Jesus Christ

 

[JonNC]

=dcana;6436992]As many persons have said, the Eucharist is Jesus, and we worship Jesus. End of story. However, we don’t only worship Him in Eucharistic Adoration. We worship Him who is the Eucharist at every Mass. Excuse me, but why are we on our knees? When the priest elevates the Host we say “My LORD and my GOD!” The question should be, do Protestants worship their “eucharist”

Yes, Lutherans do, as I said earlier. Our Eucharistic adoration is practiced differently -usually only during the sacramental action - but it is there.

, which we know is in fact nothing but a “cookie,” as Jack Chick would say, and some wine?

Yes, your words and intentions here do remind one of Jack Chick. However, a Cardinal named Ratzinger once said:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml
I find the Cardinal’s words far more charitable. It is not lost on me that the Catholic Church contends that Lutheran clergy (or at least those not in apostolic succession) cannot confect the Eucharist, quite the opposite of our view of Catholic clergy. I don’t even mind you mentioning and defending your Church’s position. It is what you should do.
That you use the same tactics as someone like Jack Chick is, at best, regrettable.

Nevertheless. If not, why not? Could it be that deep down, maybe subconsciously, they know, quite correctly, that nobody is there?

Some may think so, but they are wrong.

I’m sure there are many who do believe, however, and I’m deeply sorry that they have never tasted of the symbolic bread of which Jesus said that whoever eats of it has eternal life within them.

Not symbolic bread, but the real body of Christ.

Quite right! One must not worship any man-made object. To do so is idolatry.

I agree.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You lost me, Bill? I was talking to GKC and I’m not sure what you mean here?

Yes i worship Jesus Christ

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL…nope, Fresno California. I actually am a big Toto fan. My wife shook hands with Steve Lukather, who IMO is the greatest guitar player on the planet earth, and I shook hands with Bobby Kimball, the lead singer. I’ve been a fan since I was a kid. Kansas is another rock band, not a fan LOL

Was it in Kansas?

GKC

 

[Soutane]

As many persons have said, the Eucharist is Jesus, and we worship Jesus. End of story. However, we don’t only worship Him in Eucharistic Adoration. We worship Him who is the Eucharist at every Mass. Excuse me, but why are we on our knees? When the priest elevates the Host we say “My LORD and my GOD!” The question should be, do Protestants worship their “eucharist,” which we know is in fact nothing but a “cookie,” as Jack Chick would say, and some wine? Nevertheless. If not, why not? Could it be that deep down, maybe subconsciously, they know, quite correctly, that nobody is there? I’m sure there are many who do believe, however, and I’m deeply sorry that they have never tasted of the symbolic bread of which Jesus said that whoever eats of it has eternal life within them. Way to go, Luther! :bighankymay he rest in your eternal peace, Lord, if it is possible)

Quite right! One must not worship any man-made object. To do so is idolatry.

Dcana,I know you,like I believe that the Eucharist exists only in the Catholic Church but to degrade someone else’s belief in his Church’s Eucharist is beneath you as a Catholic.I know you’re sick of the taunting Catholic’s receive from SOME boneheaded Fundamentalist’s especially Chickian references to cookies or “the death cookie”.That doesn’t give you or me the right to excorciate or mock our Brothers’ in Christ beliefs.We may be seperated brethren but we are still brethren.
I don’t want to come across as a hypocrite as I can be vociferous,unkind, and even obstreporous in debate at times but JonNC has made a very valid point and he is a very respected Lutheran poster here and I’ve never read an unkind word in any of his posts.Just because this is OUR turf it doesn’t give us license to descend to the level of the posters at CARM.I’ve said unkind things and have even apologised for them.I’ve even had my posting privileges suspended for going overboard on one poster.Please reconsider your post.Peace

 

[Soutane]

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.”

Jon,I’m at a loss for words.Do you recall the circumstances under which they were spoken?I may have some reconsidering to do.

 

[Palaeologos]

If you all believe in The Real Presence…as you claim to…if it doesn’t happen via Transubstantiation, then how, in your opinion and according to your church’s teachings, does the bread and wine become The Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ???

Who says we have to provide an explanation? It’s not given to us to analyze or argue about; we are commanded “Take and eat”.

It’s enough for me that it happens. It doesn’t matter to me how; I trust God that he will do as he has promised to do.

 

[GKC]

Who says we have to provide an explanation? It’s not given to us to analyze or argue about; we are commanded “Take and eat”.

It’s enough for me that it happens. It doesn’t matter to me how; I trust God that he will do as he has promised to do.

Hmmm. This is a better place for me to have put that quote from Lewis.

GKC

 

[GKC]

LOL…nope, Fresno California. I actually am a big Toto fan. My wife shook hands with Steve Lukather, who IMO is the greatest guitar player on the planet earth, and I shook hands with Bobby Kimball, the lead singer. I’ve been a fan since I was a kid. Kansas is another rock band, not a fan LOL

You mean…Toto’s not in Kansas anymore?

GKC

 

[TriuneUnity]

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.”

Jon,I’m at a loss for words.Do you recall the circumstances under which they were spoken?I may have some reconsidering to do.

Soutane, the quote is from Briefwechsel von Landesbischof Johannes Hanselmann und Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger über das Communio-Schreiben der Römischen Glaubenskongregation," Una Sancta, 48 (1993): 348. and is cited by a USCCB document usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

The USCCB states:

"Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church. The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

‘I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.’

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries."

 

[Soutane]

Soutane, the quote is from Briefwechsel von Landesbischof Johannes Hanselmann und Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger über das Communio-Schreiben der Römischen Glaubenskongregation," Una Sancta, 48 (1993): 348. and is cited by a USCCB document usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

The USCCB states:

"Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church. The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

‘I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.’

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries."

I have a sneaking feeling that the Luterans on this board know WAY more about us than we do of them,since some Catholics tend to look at Protestantism as a huge monolithic block,not distinguishing between snake-handlers,theologically bereft fundamentalists and Lutherans et al.This is very educational and I am going to have to reexamine the rigidity and validity of my rather kneejerk reaction to some issues.

 

[Bill_Pick]

You lost me, Bill? I was talking to GKC and I’m not sure what you mean here?

I,m sorry i love Jesus Christ,do you get it now that as plain as I get

 

[Javl]

According to Jesus’ words (Luke 22:18-20) a consecrated wafer IS His flesh and blood. The wafer IS NOT symbolic but IS Him truly. Therefore I do worship Him in the consecrated wafer. ( Jack Chick and others not withstanding! )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

P.S. For all you Protestant Christians, you do not know the joy and ecstacy that reults when receiving Him bodily to nourish the soul. You should try it, you’ll more than like it.

 

[Cinette]

I understand that Mary is never adored by Catholics in the sense of worshippng her.

Simply loved.

I adore my children - I don’t worship them- I love them as in the red definition.

a·dore   –verb (used with object)
**1.to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor. **
2.to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.
3.to like or admire very much: I simply adore the way your hair is done!

To say that I adore the way your hair is done is not correct English - it is a form of modern expression!

 

[JonNC]

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.”

Jon,I’m at a loss for words.Do you recall the circumstances under which they were spoken?I may have some reconsidering to do.

Don’t be too at a loss. I don’t for a moment believe that the Cardinal intended to put for a view that the Lutheran Eucharist, outside of apostolic succession, was on a par with Catholic or Orthodox, but only to say that it is not a nothing. It is not simply wafer and wine, and that Holy Spirit uses our communion to bring forgiveness of sins.

We believe our cEucharist and clergy to be equally valid as yours, and I personally pray for the day when our clergies and altars are again one.

Jon

 

[Cinette]

It is explained on our profile, so there really should be no confusion.

Thank you - sorry about that - should have checked your profile.

 

[Soutane]

Don’t be too at a loss. I don’t for a moment believe that the Cardinal intended to put for a view that the Lutheran Eucharist, outside of apostolic succession, was on a par with Catholic or Orthodox, but only to say that it is not a nothing. It is not simply wafer and wine, and that Holy Spirit uses our communion to bring forgiveness of sins.

We believe our cEucharist and clergy to be equally valid as yours, and I personally pray for the day when our clergies and altars are again one.

Jon

Me too

 

[Soutane]

I understand that Mary is never adored by Catholics in the sense of worshippng her.

Simply loved.

I adore my children - I don’t worship them- I love them as in the red definition.

a·dore   –verb (used with object)
**1.to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor. **
2.to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.
3.to like or admire very much: I simply adore the way your hair is done!

Thanks for saying that,you have no idea how plesant it is to hear a non-Catholic Christian say that:thumbsup: