Do Catholics worship with Muslims?

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jlhargus said:
JL: I think Paul put it well; [Acts17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.] The point is, they worship the true God, ignorantly, their knowledge and understanding of him is way off.

By the way is your faith group one of Calvary Chapel Outreach?
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The Muslims hoever would disagree with this assesment. For them not only is Allah unknown he is unknowable. He is a transcendant being that has nothing in common with humans at all. In fact, they utterly and completely reject the entire Christian faith, which it grew out of more than likely, as being infantile, superstitious, bleaphemous and outright wrong. They wholescale reject the divinity of Christ, and they cannot claim ignorance because they specifically spell it out in the Koran why they reject him and they put forth reasoned arguments for it, They are perfectly aware of who Jesus is and what His followers believe about Him. They scoff at this and they reject Him.

So do the Muslims worship the same God as we do? Maybe in a purely technical sense they do since there is only one God. However, they would deny that they do, would not accept the truth of the statement and would probably laugh in your face if you said that they did.

This whole idea of the Abrahamic umbrella griouping of religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all comprising different brances of t he same tree trunk was a pet of of the late Holy Father John Paul II. He yearned for it and devoted an endless amount of time promoting it.

That doesn’t make it right. And quite frankly, I don’t believe that it is correct.

To bring Paul into this argument is really stretching it because his motives were just a tad different than those of the people proposing this stuff these days.
 
lightsalt said:
Islam acknowledges that it serves the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But in so doing it is stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were Muslims! .

lightsalt
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I thought Abraham was where the split between Christians and Islam was… they followed the line of Ishmael and we followed the line of Issac?

SD
 
palmas85 said:
So do the Muslims worship the same God as we do? Maybe in a purely technical sense they do since there is only one God. However, they would deny that they do, would not accept the truth of the statement and would probably laugh in your face if you said that they did.

This whole idea of the Abrahamic umbrella griouping of religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all comprising different brances of t he same tree trunk was a pet of of the late Holy Father John Paul II. He yearned for it and devoted an endless amount of time promoting it.

That doesn’t make it right. And quite frankly, I don’t believe that it is correct.

To bring Paul into this argument is really stretching it because his motives were just a tad different than those of the people proposing this stuff these days.
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I was never saying that they worshipped the same God.
I was saying that the CCC said they worshipped the same God. (par 841)

In Its own words, The catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition.

So RCC doctrine is to just be swept under the rug, in order to keep the unity of the Body of Christ?
I think that truth should be exposed. As mis-truths ```should. If there is an error the church should retract the statement.

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. (Rom 2:24)
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Rom 3:3-4)

When you quote Homer’s support of the Church, are you taking into consideration the platform on which he is standing? You are quoting a cartoon character after all, but the farther thing from reality is for you to group all Lutherans and Protestants together and call them heretics. Do you understand the gravity of the sin that you are claiming??

As a heretic would be in conflict with the established canon of your belief system, how would it be called a heresy for a Christian to attempt to stick to the basics of what Scripture calls for us to believe? Sorry, the RCC does not own a monopoly on the Holy Spirit. God’s love does transcend the church that you belong to. There are many men who have dedicated their lives to Christ and understand His will far better than many, yet they are not members of the RCC. To say they are going to eternal damnation for not following the pope brings a bad name to all catholics.

In addition, if you frankly do not believe that Muslims worship the same God as Roman Catholics, then you are at odds with the teaching of the RCC also.

lightsalt
 
lightsalt said:
I was never saying that they worshipped the same God.
I was saying that the CCC said they worshipped the same God. (par 841)

In Its own words, The catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition.

So RCC doctrine is to just be swept under the rug, in order to keep the unity of the Body of Christ?
I think that truth should be exposed. As mis-truths ```should. If there is an error the church should retract the statement.

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. (Rom 2:24)
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Rom 3:3-4)

When you quote Homer’s support of the Church, are you taking into consideration the platform on which he is standing? You are quoting a cartoon character after all, but the farther thing from reality is for you to group all Lutherans and Protestants together and call them heretics. Do you understand the gravity of the sin that you are claiming??

As a heretic would be in conflict with the established canon of your belief system, how would it be called a heresy for a Christian to attempt to stick to the basics of what Scripture calls for us to believe? Sorry, the RCC does not own a monopoly on the Holy Spirit. God’s love does transcend the church that you belong to. There are many men who have dedicated their lives to Christ and understand His will far better than many, yet they are not members of the RCC. To say they are going to eternal damnation for not following the pope brings a bad name to all catholics.

In addition, if you frankly do not believe that Muslims worship the same God as Roman Catholics, then you are at odds with the teaching of the RCC also.

lightsalt
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A kind of rambling and non sensical response. Confusing and hard to follow overall.

I believe that the Catechism says that the Muslims and we adore the one true God and that they, the Muslims, ** profess **to hold to the faith of Abraham. Adoration and worship are two different things. I adore my wife but I do not worship her. As far as professing to hold the faith of Abraham it may be true that they profess it. It is not necessarily true that they also do it.

To accept their beliefs as valid, then you must view ours with suspicion as they are not the same belief. Not by a long shot. In other words they cannot both be right. example From the Koran:

O People of the Book, (that means Christians and Jews), commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of God anything but the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist! It will be better for you: for God is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. (Qur’an [Qur’an 4:171])

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Qur’an [Qur’an 5:73])

So if you accept what they say, you deny what the Church says. It is really kind of simple and not complicated at all.

As far as this Homer that you speak of, you lost me.:confused: I don’t have the first clue who you are speaking of. Neither have I ever said that Protestants or Lutherans, I don’t know why you broke them into two groups because they are both Protestants:confused: are heretics. While it is quite true that they started out that way, no doubt about that at all, who am I to say that they still are…

I am intrigued with your response however and your apparent distaste, very apparent indeed, of the Catholic Church or RCC as you call us. I am curious, what faith do you belong to, if any?
 
palmas85 said:
A kind of rambling and non sensical response. Confusing and hard to follow overall.

I believe that the Catechism says that the Muslims and we adore the one true God and that they, the Muslims, ** profess **to hold to the faith of Abraham. Adoration and worship are two different things. I adore my wife but I do not worship her. As far as professing to hold the faith of Abraham it may be true that they profess it. It is not necessarily true that they also do it.

To accept their beliefs as valid, then you must view ours with suspicion as they are not the same belief. Not by a long shot. In other words they cannot both be right. example From the Koran:

O People of the Book, (that means Christians and Jews), commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of God anything but the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist! It will be better for you: for God is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. (Qur’an [Qur’an 4:171])

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Qur’an [Qur’an 5:73])

So if you accept what they say, you deny what the Church says. It is really kind of simple and not complicated at all.

As far as this Homer that you speak of, you lost me.:confused: I don’t have the first clue who you are speaking of. Neither have I ever said that Protestants or Lutherans, I don’t know why you broke them into two groups because they are both Protestants:confused: are heretics. While it is quite true that they started out that way, no doubt about that at all, who am I to say that they still are…

I am intrigued with your response however and your apparent distaste, very apparent indeed, of the Catholic Church or RCC as you call us. I am curious, what faith do you belong to, if any?
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Sorry palmas85, I was intending to answer to BayernAnhaenger, I mis-posted and I apologize.
lightsalt
 
lightsalt said:
OK, so now you say that they likely classify Mohammedanism as heresy. You were hoping that the answer was within the link you sent??
Have you read the paragraph in question? It states that the RCC and the Muslims worship the same God.
Do you have a point here? The gist of the question is,

Is it heresy or the same God that is worshiped by the RCC?!

You cannot have it both ways, sorry.

lightsalt
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Islam’s origins appear quite stongly to be based in Gnostic Christianity, a heretical sect.

To borrow your analogy about the president…
Catholics are as those who see a Liberal Black Charismatic Male Exectutive named Barak Obama.
Muslims are as those who see a Conservative White charismatic male executive named Barak Obama.

FYI, Allah is also the term used by Arabic speaking Christians for God.
 
Hello everyone… I have read some on Islam, and their Prophet Mohammed, and the way I understand it… The name “ALLAH” is actually the name of Mohammed’s tribe’s name for their MOON GOD… As far as praying with Muslims, I do believe that is a SIN in the Catholic Church, unless you are converting them to our TRUE CHURCH. Which personally does not bother me, I would not pray with anyone who’s religion endorses the killing of innocents , no matter what their religion is !! :amen:

May you all have a wonderful and Blessed Easter !!!
 
moslems say christ was a profit, the jews say we worship a “jewish cadaver”: catholics say christ is god incarnate. “i am the lord thy god, thou shalt not have strange gods before me.”
for someone some-where to say something that would contradict anathemas issued by councils, synods and popes over the last 2,000 years smacks of heresy. have a good year. (alih)👍
 
JohnTrueHeart said:
Hello everyone… I have read some on Islam, and their Prophet Mohammed, and the way I understand it… The name “ALLAH” is actually the name of Mohammed’s tribe’s name for their MOON GOD… As far as praying with Muslims, I do believe that is a SIN in the Catholic Church, unless you are converting them to our TRUE CHURCH. Which personally does not bother me, I would not pray with anyone who’s religion endorses the killing of innocents , no matter what their religion is !! :amen:

May you all have a wonderful and Blessed Easter !!!
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“Allah” is just the word for God in Arabic. Arabic Christians and Jews used and still use the same word. It shares the same Semitic root with the word “Alah” in Syriac/Aramaic and thus is the word that Jesus (pbuh) would have used also, and is the word still used by Syriac speaking Christians.

A pagan deity of whatever sort would be finite, just a thing, and thus would be unworthy of worship. Muslims worship God who is Infinite, Absolute, Being, the One; God is not a finite contingent thing, but the necessary and unlimited Reality.

And by the way, the Pope reiterated again, just a few days ago that Catholics worship the same God, the one God, that Muslims do. So, it seems to me that you aren’t even arguing with Muslims here about this, you are arguing with your own church and tradition. The rulers of the Catholic Church seem pretty clear that they think Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
 
JohnTrueHeart said:
Hello everyone… I have read some on Islam, and their Prophet Mohammed, and the way I understand it… The name “ALLAH” is actually the name of Mohammed’s tribe’s name for their MOON GOD…
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That’s not correct. The name of the moon god sounds similar, but the meanings aren’t close. It would be like saying that we worship some guy named Justin Christopher instead of Jesus Christ.

Allah is the Arabic word for “god [indefinite]” with a definite article added to it, making it “God [the one and only]”.
 
lightsalt said:
I read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1, Paragraph 841 that: Muslims together with the Catholics, “adore the one, merciful God.”
I have only seen information pertaining to Muslims, because I am not a Muslim. But the info I have says that Muslims do not believe in the Trinity, nor do they agree in the deity of Jesus Christ.
This confuses me, because how can one God be a trinity and not be a trinity at the same time? I have barely understood the doctrine of the trinity in the past, and now this. What Gives?
Lightsalt
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I think what that means is that Muslims and Catholics worship one God. Muslims believe that only Allah should be worshiped, as Catholics believe God in three persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) should be worshiped, if that makes any sense.

-Jeanne
 
lightsalt said:
This confuses me, because how can one God be a trinity and not be a trinity at the same time? I have barely understood the doctrine of the trinity in the past, and now this. What Gives?
Lightsalt
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I guess the idea is that muslims only recognize one person of the Holy Trinity, namely God the Father, as do the jews.
 
Hypatia… no disrepect… but you need to read your own history… as it is written in the library at the Cairo University, Egypt. I recommend you read…A HISTORY OF THE ARAB PEOPLES by Albert Hourani…an EMMERITUS FELLOW at St.Anthony College, Oxford, England, he has also written other excellent books on the subject of the history of the Arab people and Islam. By the way… I am a soon to be Catholic convert, therefore my knowledge is not based on the church… but my interest in history. !!!

Have a good day !!! :knight1:
 
JohnTrueHeart said:
Hypatia… no disrepect… but you need to read your own history… as it is written in the library at the Cairo University, Egypt. I recommend you read…A HISTORY OF THE ARAB PEOPLES by Albert Hourani…an EMMERITUS FELLOW at St.Anthony College, Oxford, England, he has also written other excellent books on the subject of the history of the Arab people and Islam. By the way… I am a soon to be Catholic convert, therefore my knowledge is not based on the church… but my interest in history. !!!

Have a good day !!! :knight1:
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so let me get this straight. Your claim is that…historically of course…Jesus and other Aramaic speakers, along with Christians and Jews in pre-Muslim Arabia, all of which referred to God in some form or another as Alah/Allah worshiped a moon god?
 
jeanne71350 said:
I think what that means is that Muslims and Catholics worship one God. Muslims believe that only Allah should be worshiped, as Catholics believe God in three persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) should be worshiped, if that makes any sense.

-Jeanne
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Hi Jeanne, Thank you for your thoughts.
My question had to do with the catholic belief that they worship the Same God as the Muslims.

I do not think this to be possible, because the Jesus in Islam is the false prophet that comes to set up the coming of the antichrist.

I know that Muslim people are descendants of Abraham, but they are still apostate.

lightsalt
 
lightsalt said:
Hi Jeanne, Thank you for your thoughts.
My question had to do with the catholic belief that they worship the Same God as the Muslims.

I do not think this to be possible, because the Jesus in Islam is the false prophet that comes to set up the coming of the antichrist.

I know that Muslim people are descendants of Abraham, but they are still apostate.

lightsalt
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Jesus (pbuh) is not a false prophet. We just do not believe he is God.
 
Hypatia said:
Jesus (pbuh) is not a false prophet. We just do not believe he is God.
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-Yes, thank you. I believe I received some false information in the past.

Would you say that the following is accurate?

According to Islamic view Jesus (Isa, in Arabic) is not the “Son of God”, but was a prophet. It is believed that Jesus was not crucified; instead he was raised bodily.
According to many hadith and believed by most Muslims, he will return to Earth.
At the time appointed by Allah, Jesus will physically return to this world with the Mahdi (more relevant in Shii beliefs and disputed in Sunni) and will end all wars, and usher in an era of peace.
The messianic era comes after Jesus kills ad-Dajjal, the antichrist figure in Islam, and defeats his followers.

shalom,
lightsalt
 
lightsalt said:
-Yes, thank you. I believe I received some false information in the past.

Would you say that the following is accurate?

According to Islamic view Jesus (Isa, in Arabic) is not the “Son of God”, but was a prophet. It is believed that Jesus was not crucified; instead he was raised bodily.
According to many hadith and believed by most Muslims, he will return to Earth.
At the time appointed by Allah, Jesus will physically return to this world with the Mahdi (more relevant in Shii beliefs and disputed in Sunni) and will end all wars, and usher in an era of peace.
The messianic era comes after Jesus kills ad-Dajjal, the antichrist figure in Islam, and defeats his followers.

shalom,
lightsalt
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That is the basic story line. Jesus returns at the time of conflict between the Mahdi and al-Maseeh ad-Dajjal (false Messiah). Peace ensues and Jesus (pbuh) eventually dies of old age and is to be buried in Medina (where there is in fact a grave site already waiting next to the Prophet (pbuh)). As you mention, the speculation about the end of times is, in my experience, much much more common among Shi’a (where issues of the hidden Imam and so on are also part of the story, and beyond my competence to recount).

As for the (non-)death of Jesus (pbuh): I would say that the account you gave is basically the Muslim majority report, if you will. It represents the most common Islamic take on the life of Jesus and crucifixion (even here you get a number of ideas about what happened on the Cross itself). Then you have a sampling of minority reports that range from: he was on the Cross but didn’t die…to: he actually died on the Cross in much the way the Christian account says (you can find this last idea in parts of the Islamic philosophical tradition, especially).
 
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