Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

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I am Orthodox Christian , and I have to say “No” . No I do not worship the same God as Muslims do. I can give several reasons for this. The obvious reason being that God is Trinity, One in Essence and Undivided. Islam Rejects this , in essence the rejection of the Trinity is a rejection of God’s Nature . Muslims reject the Divinity of Christ , I embrace the Divinity of Christ, as well as the Crucifixion.Muslims deny free will. that “allah” is determinate" and that basically according to their “theology” one is a slave to “allah”. these are all aspects of whom God is not . God revealed himself through the Prophets of the Old Testament and then was Incarnated from the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. and revealed the fullness of Truth to the Apostles and the Church. This Truth was expounded by the Holy Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils who in their teachings speak Infallibly concerning the Nature of God . Looking at this all then how can one say that God , is the 'allah" mentioned in the Koran or by Muslims? Christ being God (God speaking) said “There will be many who say I am Christ etc” There have been many false prophets since the time of Christ , why then is Mohammed any different? Why would the Archangel Gabriel who came to announce the tidings to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin , then contradict himself by speaking to Mohammed ? If this is all the case then God would be a liar? The Neo Ecumenists would like everyone to believe this is not the case that we worship the same God but all the evidence says otherwise.
No - to the fact that in heavily Muslim areas, in the Middle East, it is not ordered - the reason why I asked this question was the fact that a friend of mine father grew up in Lebanon - so the bible was read every night but also it was ordered that the Qur’an be read as well, as this was many years ago. Is this not true any more?
 
Although there are differences, hamba2han, between Christian and Muslim form of worship which I think this seems to be very obvious to all - the precepts of who God is, is very diverse - even from within each movement of either religions, and according to following the law. Again, what God gave as instructions and how each follows/adheres to them - the Ultra Orthodox to the Orthodox - Conservative to the Reform. So why do I think of the tower of Babel on this issue?

There is still a break down on divinity points of the mysticism - as to understand that Christians are not getting into areas that are personifying God, but understanding and interpreting scripture as being presented, noting the scriptural text, 11 "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; and 16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.” We understood this in Genesis and in Isaiah 2:3 “the law went forth”…The word of power went forth, much like creation. In John 8:42, “I proceed forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but “He” sent me.” Jesus is the anointed flesh and bones which God brought forth to life by His own Holy Spirit - so we understand, as each as being within one God. This is so illustrated in God’s creation with Adam and Eve, let us make man in “our” own image, image to create wisdom, compassion, mercy, judgment, and the ability for woman to bare children - to create another human being. There are subdivision to each attribute that was listed - yet man was created and Christ was formed - and went forth out of the Mouth of God (which being is the law):

Ge 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Ge 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Ge 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
Ge 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth”; and it was so.
Ge 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
Ge 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”
Ge 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Ge 1:5 And God called the light day
Ge 1:5 And the darkness He called night.
Ge 1:8 And God called the expanse heaven.
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas.
Ge 1:10 And the gathering of the waters He called seas.

These verbal commands of God are called “decrees” or “counsels,” made all the events of nature and history to be the effects of God’s Words. Adam’s first experience was that on hearing the Word of God (Gen. 1:28ff.) and the first command was given to Adam (mankind) in Genesis 2:16. Adam’s life Genesis 26:5, Deuteronomy 11:1, Joshua 22:2-3, 1 Kings 2:2-4 and also death depended upon his obedience to that Word (Gen. 2:17). After the fall, Adam’s only hope was that God would fulfill the promise of his Word (Gen. 3:15) – to redeem man…

So really there are arguments on interpretations of the law, as there is separations between conservative and extremist. All these controversy - are due to one’s ability to understand the law and transmit them into a language that is understood. I think, that’s 99.9% of what seems to be the problems are - transmitting the law and concepts, knowing that this is a way of life or a path to follow within your own faith - as well as in our own. In each religious denomination/movements, the understanding the code of conduct from one era to the next has changed - even in the approach.

So how can someone define, like I said - who God is, unless we find some kinda of mutual agreement.

Thanks
Mary
You have given a lengthy and rather complex answer to what is basically a very simple question that I had pose i.e. Do Christians worship the God that Abraham (pbuh) worshiped?

If the answer is ‘Yes’, then this means that Christians worship the same God that Muslims worship.

On the other hand, if their answer is ‘No’, then this certainly means that these Christians need to re-evaluate their faith by reading and understanding both the Old and New Testament.

Well actually, even if Christians answer ‘Yes’, they still would need to read and understand everything that both the New and Old Testament teaches regarding the attributes and description of the God that Abraham (pbuh) worshiped.
 
I am Orthodox Christian , and I have to say “No” . No I do not worship the same God as Muslims do. I can give several reasons for this. The obvious reason being that God is Trinity, One in Essence and Undivided. Islam Rejects this , in essence the rejection of the Trinity is a rejection of God’s Nature . Muslims reject the Divinity of Christ , I embrace the Divinity of Christ, as well as the Crucifixion.Muslims deny free will. that “allah” is determinate" and that basically according to their “theology” one is a slave to “allah”. these are all aspects of whom God is not . God revealed himself through the Prophets of the Old Testament and then was Incarnated from the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. and revealed the fullness of Truth to the Apostles and the Church. This Truth was expounded by the Holy Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils who in their teachings speak Infallibly concerning the Nature of God . Looking at this all then how can one say that God , is the 'allah" mentioned in the Koran or by Muslims? Christ being God (God speaking) said “There will be many who say I am Christ etc” There have been many false prophets since the time of Christ , why then is Mohammed any different? Why would the Archangel Gabriel who came to announce the tidings to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin , then contradict himself by speaking to Mohammed ? If this is all the case then God would be a liar? The Neo Ecumenists would like everyone to believe this is not the case that we worship the same God but all the evidence says otherwise.
I understand the post you wrote - but I don’t think that was the direction that anyone was taking…Much respect for any Christian who grew up in the Middle East, very strong. I think they need to be commended for their strong Christian faith especially for today’s conflicts and uneasiness in certain areas, the Christian religion is maintaining a rather inspiring stand. So really that wasn’t necessary for you to do - at all, if you’re an Orthodox Christian - what denomination? So that you know, the information that I wrote has been verified from Arab Christians websites - and also verified by other members within the same premise and also who I know personally (as I grew up with them - from childhood) and the Arab Christians do use the word “Allah” for “God” before Islam came along, and continue to do so today. It is the only Arabic word for God–which our Arabic Christian brothers and sisters were using even before Islam. We’re talking about 15 million Christians in the Middle East whose Bible translations have always used “Allah” for God, and whose liturgy and prayers are all directed to Allah as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! Allāh al-ʾab (الله الأب) meaning God the Father, Allāh al-ibn (الله الابن) mean God the Son, and Allāh ar-rūḥ al-quds (الله الروح القدس) meaning God the Holy Spirit …and yes, this is different from the Muslim faith. (and *From and From - the idea that the Orthodox are of the trinitarian religion and the Qur’an is from the Muslim faith, Hadith, lol…yes) Good thing that I came from an Orthodox background - and grew up Catholic and in a very ethic neighborhood, where the women wore the couvrechef (kerchief)…:bighanky: - I miss all that. Oh well, I’m so sorry that you needed to explain yourself that way to everyone.
The conference marked the first anniversary of the publication of A Common Word Between Us and You, a letter from 138 (now 228) Islamic scholars, clerics and intellectuals promoting understanding and tolerance between Christians and Muslims. Addressed to Pope Benedict XVI after his Regensburg lecture, and to other Christian leaders, the letter warned that the survival of the world could be at stake if Muslims and Christians could not make peace with each other. melkite.org/sa94.htm
Even though, Allah has been significant to the Muslim populace it is used among the Christian sect as well it is the Arabic name for God - that’s all, the end.

From and From:rolleyes:
Mary
 
You have given a lengthy and rather complex answer to what is basically a very simple question that I had pose i.e. Do Christians worship the God that Abraham (pbuh) worshiped?

If the answer is ‘Yes’, then this means that Christians worship the same God that Muslims worship.

On the other hand, if their answer is ‘No’, then this certainly means that these Christians need to re-evaluate their faith by reading and understanding both the Old and New Testament.

Well actually, even if Christians answer ‘Yes’, they still would need to read and understand everything that both the New and Old Testament teaches regarding the attributes and description of the God that Abraham (pbuh) worshiped.
Hi Hamba2han,

As you have simply explain your understanding of who God is, I have given you areas to consider when answering to either Yes or the No… thank goodness this was not on a, b, or c form.

** There is still a break down on divinity points of the mysticism** - as to understand that Christians are not getting into areas that are personifying God, but understanding and interpreting scripture as being presented, noting the scriptural text, 11 "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; and 16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.” We understood this in Genesis and in Isaiah 2:3 “the law went forth”…The word of power went forth, much like creation. In John 8:42, “I proceed forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but “He” sent me.” Jesus is the anointed flesh and bones which God brought forth to life by His own Holy Spirit - so we understand, as each as being within one God. This is so illustrated in God’s creation with Adam and Eve, let us make man in “our” own image, image to create wisdom within man, compassion, mercy, judgment, and the ability for woman to bare children - to create another human being. There are subdivision to each attribute that was listed - yet man was created and Christ was formed - and went forth out of the Mouth of God (which being is the law).

The creation of woman - from the rib of Adam, shows the fact of what God had taken and formed, and also divided/ in the division. God is constantly creating and dividing throughout Genesis - the waters, the heavens…etc, but all came from an original source, that being God, as he is initial cause. So its not so impossible to believe that there are three unifying (co equal) one and equal to God - God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so we pray and worship one God.

So if you’re asking the question - don’t you want to understand the reasoning’s for the answer. Next time, I’ll cast my vote - a - b - or C… nothing much in that.

and yes, I thought that was rude on your part and I’ve never run into that within your faith.
Mary
 
You have given a lengthy and rather complex answer to what is basically a very simple question that I had pose i.e. Do Christians worship the God that Abraham (pbuh) worshiped?

If the answer is ‘Yes’, then this means that Christians worship the same God that Muslims worship…
Hamba, you don’t seem to understand the objections. The way they see it is that Muslims only think they worship the God of Abraham, in fact what they worship is some other deity dreamed up by Mohammed.
 
Christians and Jews and Muslims definately do not worship the same God and Father of Jesus Christ,according to Jesus Christ,who they have rejected and they are both pro Jesus but anti Christ and so anti His Father “for he who does not have the son does not have the Father but he who has the son has both the Father and the son”- to have the Father they must have the son who they have rejected but should have accepted so listen again to what Jesus has to say “and the Father who sent me…His voice you have never heard,His form you have never seen”[Jn.5:37] - so who walked and talked to Adam,Moses and the other prophets of old as “thus saith the Lord”- as the word of God every word supposedly spoken by God where spoken by Jesus Christ - twinc
 
I am Orthodox Christian , and I have to say “No” . No I do not worship the same God as Muslims do. I can give several reasons for this. The obvious reason being that God is Trinity, One in Essence and Undivided. Islam Rejects this , in essence the rejection of the Trinity is a rejection of God’s Nature . Muslims reject the Divinity of Christ , I embrace the Divinity of Christ, as well as the Crucifixion.Muslims deny free will. that “allah” is determinate" and that basically according to their “theology” one is a slave to “allah”. these are all aspects of whom God is not . God revealed himself through the Prophets of the Old Testament and then was Incarnated from the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. and revealed the fullness of Truth to the Apostles and the Church. This Truth was expounded by the Holy Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils who in their teachings speak Infallibly concerning the Nature of God . Looking at this all then how can one say that God , is the 'allah" mentioned in the Koran or by Muslims? Christ being God (God speaking) said “There will be many who say I am Christ etc” There have been many false prophets since the time of Christ , why then is Mohammed any different? Why would the Archangel Gabriel who came to announce the tidings to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin , then contradict himself by speaking to Mohammed ? If this is all the case then God would be a liar? The Neo Ecumenists would like everyone to believe this is not the case that we worship the same God but all the evidence says otherwise.
I agree with most of what you say. Of course there’s no doubt about Mohammad and his claim to prophethood or his “revelation”- They are all false. Their ultimate origin is the Devil whether he did it through demonic apparitions that Mohammed called “jibril” or through the normal temptations to pride and self-glorification, or whether Mohammed was just deluded.

However, can we really say that anyone who doesn’t know God as Trinity is worshiping a false God? Isn’t the Trinity an intimate truth of God that Christians only know by revelation? The Blessed Trinity is about who God is in himself! How can anybody know this unless it is revealed to him, like God did with us?

The usual attributes given to God, invisible, one, infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent etc are all about knowing God from an outside perspective, how we creatures know the true God- We describe him this way. These are attributes we can deduce from creation (God’s actions) and reason. But the Blessed Trinity is a “secret” of God, akin to how people who have been dating or friends discover more about each other as they reveal their innermost selves to each other depending on Trust etc. It’s not about who God is us (Creator) but who he is in himself. How can we assume that knowing him intimately is the only kind of knowing when it is beyond our natural capacities? Does this mean that before Jesus Christ was born, no one had ever worshiped the true God because no one had ever thought of him as Trinity? The Blessed Trinity is a privileged secret God shared with man because he wished us to participate in the Divine life, it’s not properly the natural way of relating to God.
 
I wish to extend my apologies to anyone who I may have unwittingly offended not just in this thread but throughout these message boards here at CAF.

You see, my understanding and philosophy regarding faith is really very simple i.e. since faith is the relationship between the creations and their Creator, then it has to be as simple and pure as it possibly can be.

Just like the relationship between a baby and it’s mother is so very simple and pure, so too should the relationship between the Creator and His creation be very simple and pure in order for the creations to derive the most benefit from this relationship with their Creator.

And so, I really do not understand… and nor do I even seek to understand any perceived complexity in the relationship between us and Our Lord and Creator.
 
I wish to extend my apologies to anyone who I may have unwittingly offended not just in this thread but throughout these message boards here at CAF.

You see, my understanding and philosophy regarding faith is really very simple i.e. since faith is the relationship between the creations and their Creator, then it has to be as simple and pure as it possibly can be.

Just like the relationship between a baby and it’s mother is so very simple and pure, so too should the relationship between the Creator and His creation be very simple and pure in order for the creations to derive the most benefit from this relationship with their Creator.

And so, I really do not understand… and nor do I even seek to understand any perceived complexity in the relationship between us and Our Lord and Creator.
I know you say you don’t wish to understand, but I’ll make an attempt for any person who may be like you, reading this, but does wish to understand.

It’s like this, God is the ultimate being, the fullness of existence- existence itself. Like when we speak of our nature as human, understanding what human nature is like, or animal or plant nature etc, God’s own nature (his way of being/existing) is ultimate existence-the highest way of being. Basically God is the being who exists because it is his nature to exist- He must exist- cannot cause himself not to exist, because to be is exactly what he is. Therefore, we say, God has no beginning and no end- To say otherwise is to say that at some point God did not exist-which is saying he was not God- Impossible. Now God is not just being but its fullness. For example, we see goodness in nature, therefore we know God is good, we see beauty, power etc- But God is not just good, beautiful, powerful, but the fullness of all these things- He’s goodness itself, or beauty itself or power itself or we can say ultimate goodness, ultimate beauty, ultimate power, he’s the fullness of what it means to be all these things.

We know this because this is how he identified himself to Moses- YHWH, his name- The thing that sets him apart is- “I am who AM” or “I am he who IS” To be always- This is how God sets himself apart from all his creatures. He creates (gives existence to things that do not exist) because he himself is the fullness of existence and its source. (Philosophers say he’s the first cause- every effect is caused by something, and you will say this thing was caused by this thing, then this by this, all the way to infinity unless you come to an ultimate cause that itself has no other cause besides itself- we call it “God”- and he can only be one because other wise there would be two causes). We say this ultimate being can only have one being, eternal, omni-everything, and basically his existence is limitless/infinite in every way.

This is what God is, his nature- It’s what we can deduce and describe from outside (because we are not him!)- and it’s available to reason . It’s not however, who he is in himself- This is not something anyone can know, and must be revealed through God’s free will, not even the angels can know this w/out revelation. For example, you know you’re an individual, because your own experience of yourself is strictly your own- nobody can enter your experience and know what it it is to be you at this instance- unless you tell us, we cannot know. (That’s how we know that new-agers are deluded- If we were all one being, we could enter into each other’s personal experiences and God’s- but we know we can’t). This individuality is what we call a person/a who/ an "I’ in speech. For us humans, each instance of our individual nature belongs to one person- so that my individual nature (my body and soul) is mine alone- and there’s only one me. When I say "I’ everyone knows who I’m talking about because there’s only one person who possesses this nature that they can point to.

Christians believe that there are three divine persons who each fully possess the one being of God (omnipresence, eternal etc) each as his own, yet because each possesses the same nature fully, they are not separate and always in each other while being distinct. Only one single being-but three persons, in each other- One Triune God. The only way I can explain it, which is the only way I myself understand it I’ll explain in the next post.

CONTINUED
 
I agree with most of what you say. Of course there’s no doubt about Mohammad and his claim to prophethood or his “revelation”- They are all false. Their ultimate origin is the Devil whether he did it through demonic apparitions that Mohammed called “jibril” or through the normal temptations to pride and self-glorification, or whether Mohammed was just deluded.

However, can we really say that anyone who doesn’t know God as Trinity is worshiping a false God? Isn’t the Trinity an intimate truth of God that Christians only know by revelation? The Blessed Trinity is about who God is in himself! How can anybody know this unless it is revealed to him, like God did with us?

The usual attributes given to God, invisible, one, infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent etc are all about knowing God from an outside perspective, how we creatures know the true God- We describe him this way. These are attributes we can deduce from creation (God’s actions) and reason. But the Blessed Trinity is a “secret” of God, akin to how people who have been dating or friends discover more about each other as they reveal their innermost selves to each other depending on Trust etc. It’s not about who God is us (Creator) but who he is in himself. How can we assume that knowing him intimately is the only kind of knowing when it is beyond our natural capacities? Does this mean that before Jesus Christ was born, no one had ever worshiped the true God because no one had ever thought of him as Trinity? The Blessed Trinity is a privileged secret God shared with man because he wished us to participate in the Divine life, it’s not properly the natural way of relating to God.
the errors are - Jesus Christ as God was not born He was and is from the beginning - secondly both the Jews and Muslims should have known Abraham’s God was a triune God - see OT at Genesis.18 - twinc
 
CONTINUED

The way it was explained to me was this: We’re created in God’s image as opposed to animals because we are also spiritual beings and we possess intelligence and volition. Therefore we know that God must have infinite intelligence (God knows all) and absolute freedom (We are always talking about the will of God, are we not?). We know God must know things perfectly and not the way we know them.

When I think of my friend who I don’t see right now, a picture comes to my head of her. This picture in my head is an idea and an imperfect representation of my friend to my mind. It doesn’t fully represent to my mind what my friend is. Also, I can think of marvelous things, like fantastic creatures of a novel I may want to write, but I cannot give being to my ideas- My own existence is an unmerited free gift! They remain ideas in my mind which I cannot manifest into the real world of existence. But when God “knows” anything such as my friend (which is always) it’s not an imperfect image that he sees, but all that she is-perfectly. Not only this, he can give being to his ideas. So God knows all the infinite possible things that can exist, knows them perfectly and to some he gives being- like the universe. God knows perfectly, unlike we, so his ideas are everything that thing is. But you see, this knowledge (by God) of things is knowledge of things that are not God. It’s the operation of the Divine intellect moving beyond the Divine being, therefore creating, giving being to these things that are less than God therefore not God.

But how does God know himself? When I ask myself- Who am I? thus forcing my mind to turn inward, no matter how hard I look, I cannot fully grasp myself. Indeed, psychology tells us we don’t know the half of ourselves! If we did we might not be able to take it- We have a well hidden ugly side. But God must be fully aware of himself, because God knows all. When God “looks” at himself (for lack of a better word) or knows himself, he again sees himself perfectly- that is ALL THAT HE IS. Since this “idea” of who God is, to be true (and it must be because God knows all) it must fully be all that God is, it must be fully God, and fully a person, or else God would not know himself perfectly. This is the movement of God’s intellect, just like with creatures, but because it’s a divine operation on the divine being himself (Does not move beyond God), it cannot result in a new being- this would be two Gods. It remains “in God” and this idea/knowledge of who God is to himself, Christians call “The Divine word (meaning a type of idea)”- God the Son, or God the Word/Image of God. The movement of God’s will to himself is God the Holy Spirit. Now, God has always been God, therefore, he has always known himself, always loved himself- Therefore these movements are eternal processions- They did not happen once and then God knew or loved himself- God eternally “knows” and “loves” himself- So people often refer to God the Son as the Wisdom of God, because God knows himself fully in the word and this is wisdom, and The Holy Spirit (For western Catholics) has often been referred to as God’s own perfect love of the highest Good (which is himself). Christianity says that it was only God the word who took on a singular human nature (but no human person) and became the man we call Jesus Christ. Who is one Divine person possessing two natures (the eternal being of God) and the created human nature/being without mixing them in any way- Christ has two ways of speaking about himself because he’s one person with two natures. He can say “I” and mean his humanity, or say 'I" and mean his Divinity. When he died, his soul and body separated as with every human, but both remained possessed by the Divine Person, like a person holding two pieces of a broken bread in each hand and were reunited at the resurrection.
 
the errors are - Jesus Christ as God was not born He was and is from the beginning - secondly both the Jews and Muslims should have known Abraham’s God was a triune God - see OT at Genesis.18 - twinc
Agreed, but who is arguing about whether or not Islam and Muhammad teach error? They do- there’s no confusion here. But failure to know the truth, or even believing falsehood do not mean that people who turn to an invisible being who is one, creator, eternal, infinite, omni-everything, are not turning to the only true God because- There is only one such being!!! If Muslims are not turning to him, who are they turning to? Are two of such beings in existence- infinite, invisible, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omniprescent???

People seem to think that acknowledging worship of one God by Muslims is equivalent to accepting Muhammad’s claims!! It’s not. The guy was completely mistaken about Our Lord, his life-Trinity, (The man thought that the Blessed Trinity was God, Jesus and Mary!!! for crying out loud) almost everything- And we know that, but he was not wrong about the oneness, eternity, in-finiteness, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience of God! He just was not- (After all, he got the beliefs from Jews and Christians, heretical though they were) and even if *he *was, the Muslims are not because this is how they understand God. It’s not accepting Islam, it’s just acknowledging the facts!!
 
No problem 👍
Thanks ;). here is the difference between a muslim and Christian. You took it so easily and in real life Christians or Buddhists also took public opinions with respect,only in real life Muslim use slang and use abusive words if someone say that to me :D.
I get you. Those fake Muslim miracles remind me of Catholics who think they see an apparition/image of Our Lady, Mary, on bread toast, oil spills, even stains etc. It really is very embarrassing! But it’s to be expected. But one thing you ought to know about the Catholic Church is that our hierarchy is made up of people as skeptical as you! Most claimed miracles/apparitions are often rejected by the Church as inauthentic. Whenever such things happen, the Church uses a thoroughly rigorous process involving scientists, doctors, and until they rule out all possible scientific/naturalist explanations for the phenomenon, the Church refuses to accept it. So if you ever here “Catholic miracle/apparition” you should inquire if the church has looked at it.
Okk I will try to inquire :).
Ok. Will def look for them and post. Peace!
Thanks and peace too 😉
 
I honestly cannot pretend to fully know how to reconcile the differences that appear between how God was in the old vs the new testament. I also had a lot of difficulty with passages like those you quoted. I suppose for me, having first believed in Jesus, I have to accept by faith what he taught about the God of the Jews- and he taught us that this God was the one true God. But just speaking as a 21st Century inhabitant of this world, the OT poses zero danger to the World today compared to Islamism which is truly a danger to the freedoms of non-Muslim people or different types of Muslims.

4)Christians- Christians regard the Jewish people as having their own Covenant- and though, we accept the OT, the legalism in it is generally regarded as having come to fulfillment in Jesus himself who we believe is God’s full revelation to man- Christ himself is our “Quran”. Therefore Christians measure everything (including OT) by him- so the OT cannot be used by Christians for violence.
Sorry I needed to cut some parts of your post when I quoted because It was too long to post.

Yes I agree,though OT is irritating in many cases,but since Christians belong to NT so I also believe that OT can not be a threat.And also if you have humanity you can not cut peoples throat.So I think Muslims need to be more respectful to other non Muslims faith and should prefer humanity over anything.

**But unfortunately Muslims are too much brain washed so they even do not want to study anything that goes against Islam,and blindly obey their sacred book when it goes against non Muslims.But on the other hand, most of Muslims even do not pray Salat except the friday prayer called Jumah. **

But when they need to face non Muslims unfortunately they think them as the threat to Muslim peoples and that’s why they can not tolerate non Muslims.Although non Muslims never harmed them 1st but they are well brain washed by their prophet and his successors.

And now This is very heard to convince them that Non Muslims are never threats to them,but for their ignorance and intolerance,they( Muslims and Islam) are the real threat to humanity.
It’s true that we have also done bad things in the past (though nowhere close to Islam). But that was because of a confusion & mixing of Church & State and politics & religion which the NT shows should be separate. It was also because of Islam, sorry to say. The crusades rose in order to repel an aggressive Islam that wanted to impose Islam on what was then a purely Christian continent. We have learned from our mistakes due to the naked message of peace by Jesus, and as HH Benedict XVI said, God can never be a a reason for any violence- To us, it’s clear that “religious wars” are a misnomer and no one is confused about the fact that those things done in the past were crimes and a clear contradiction with Jesus and the apostles. They can never happen again.
You don’t have to say sorry because you are right. I do not blame Christians for the Crusades. I believe that the power hunger of Islam was too horrific that Christian had no other option but to declare war against them. Catholics would lost all lands like orthodox Christians if they ( Catholics) would not protest Muslims .

But my real complain is, I read the history from non Muslim sources and it says that during Crusade Christian Army killed many innocent Jews mercilessly.But why? what was their fault?It was war against Islam, not against Judaism.

yes this is true that Christians have changed and now they are the most friendly and beautiful peoples, I met many of them and I found them very pure minded, both Christians who are religious or not.

Anyway I have another thing to say, not only for Islam but the protestant reformation against the Church was also the cause of murder right?BTW, Muslims has many Groups Shiah and Sunni are the 2 largest group. They have lots of fight but when the other nation attacked them or even now Criticize them then they become united. But the fight between Catholic and protestants are just too much pathetic.

and what about Inquisitions? I read that Spanish inquisition was most terrible? But others are bad too. Did church the right thing to do it? maybe Spanish were violating Church but what about the other Inquisitions?

** anyway still i can say that Church became Much softer,and pope is a very good man,and other priest also preach of love, never preach hatred,this is really nice I believe, it has much religious tolerance.**

Actually Christians changed themselves and learn from their mistakes its very nice. But unfortunately Muslim did not learn anything, and I am doubtful that they will not learn even in far future :(. because they are now led by hatred.
Have you looked at apologetic works for Christianity- The “proofs” for it from an outside perspective that starts first without assuming anything to be true and accumulating the evidence? Have you heard about “The case for Christ?” by Lee Strobel and other such works. They’re not 100% but they definitely show that Christianity has a very good case in terms of “proofs”.
Not yet, actually I am still searching the forum, don’t have idea where to go to find the real things. anyway as you suggested I will search for it

peace and blessing 🙂
 
Agreed, but who is arguing about whether or not Islam and Muhammad teach error? They do- there’s no confusion here. But failure to know the truth, or even believing falsehood do not mean that people who turn to an invisible being who is one, creator, eternal, infinite, omni-everything, are not turning to the only true God because- There is only one such being!!! If Muslims are not turning to him, who are they turning to? Are two of such beings in existence- infinite, invisible, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omniprescent???

People seem to think that acknowledging worship of one God by Muslims is equivalent to accepting Muhammad’s claims!! It’s not. The guy was completely mistaken about Our Lord, his life-Trinity, (The man thought that the Blessed Trinity was God, Jesus and Mary!!! for crying out loud) almost everything- And we know that, but he was not wrong about the oneness, eternity, in-finiteness, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience of God! He just was not- (After all, he got the beliefs from Jews and Christians, heretical though they were) and even if *he *was, the Muslims are not because this is how they understand God. It’s not accepting Islam, it’s just acknowledging the facts!!
by this criterion or yard stick there are no infidels or even pagans - of course what is really in contention or doubt is whether their God is the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus Christ and whether JC was wrong in what He said - twinc
 
Rain-bow, I found a piece of apologia for the Resurrection on this link:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/resurex.htm

I don’t expect that this link will convince you of anything, because after all, believing (faith) is both gift and choice, and cannot be forced upon anyone. In truth nobody can prove to you 100% the Christian faith. Using the natural tools at your disposal (reason) and being properly disposed (being intellectually honest & willing to follow reason to it’s ultimate logical conclusions) and being open to receive the truth wherever it may be found-These together will get you there. I suppose I’m saying that even if you find very convincing reasons for Jesus’ resurrection, if you are not willing to accept this, you wont. So it’s also a choice.

Personally, historically, the most convincing proof of the resurrection for me is simply the apostle’s martyrdom & St paul’s conversion and martyrdom. No one can find a single person in History who embraced such horrifying deaths for a lie that they knew were lies. People may do that for belief in something or someone, but bottom line- they’ll die because they are convinced it’s the truth. These men claimed they saw Christ resurrected, St Paul (The greatest student of the greatest Jewish rabbi in that century) suddenly joined the persecuted group he had been at the forefront of persecuting, and suffered in many ways, claiming he had encountered Christ. These were strict monotheistic Jews, like those guys in Saudi Arabia!- Can you imagine the top Islamic scholar suddenly claiming he encountered Christ and embracing all the persecutions that follow, ultimately martyrdom? What madness would lead him to do this unless it were true? Do you think he’d make it all up? For what? There was nothing to be gained by being Christian but suffering upon suffering upon suffering, and the most intense persecutions! And the first Christians were Jews! Why would they damn their souls by committing what was considered blasphemy (Believing Christ to be divine) when they had nothing to gain on earth (they lost everything, ultimately their lives) if they knew that they never saw Christ alive and it was all a hoax! knowing human nature, Isn’t this more difficult (believing that people generally suffer and die for hoaxes they’re aware of with no expectation of any gain whatsoever) than concluding that they did in fact experience exactly what they went to their deaths saying they did! :shrug:And by the way, there’s a lot of documentation from the early centuries that document Christian beliefs and practices, beyond just new testament.

Explanation for Trinity can be found in several places- But they are so complex (in my opinion). A fairly simple explanation is to be found here:
catholicmessage.blogspot.com/2007/03/trinity.html

But just google “catholic encyclopedia Trinity” and you’ll find fairly long and complex pieces, St Thomas’ Summa is also there- The link is newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

He starts with “The one God” and then “The Blessed Trinity”.
Now st Thomas was no light weight- He’s been included among the greatest Thinkers ever with the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Confucius etc (To be fair, the list maker expressed regret at not including st Augustine). Anyway, St Thomas is truly a master of reason and logic. The reason I’d advise you to read him if you’re genuinely interested in understanding our faith is simply that I think reason alone is the best proof of our faith. There’s no belief system so complete and perfectly intellectually consistent in itself as well as consistent with our experience of reality- there just isn’t, and there’s and no one greater than st Thomas in showing the flow of reason that is found in it.
Thanks I added those link to bookmark and I will read them all :).
 
by this criterion or yard stick there are no infidels or even pagans - of course what is really in contention or doubt is whether their God is the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus Christ and whether JC was wrong in what He said - twinc
Muslims are infidels- they do not hold the true faith, but they are not pagans. By the very fact that people acknowledge the most basic truths of God (The same I’ve been repeating here repeatedly) they are not pagans. Do you know of any pagans who believe in the one invisible God?

Let’s consider: St Paul was talking to some real pagans about God (If the ancient Greeks were not pagans, I don’t know who is), he acknowledged that among the many alters to their numerous gods and idols, there was one with no idol dedicated to “the unknown God”.

St Paul, immediately recognized that in these manner, these bunch of idolaters/polytheists were worshiping the one true God without knowing it. So I ask, if these group of idolaters could worship the true God w/out even knowing it, how in all fairness, can we here say that Muslims who worship ONLY one invisible God, to whom they attribute all the qualities that WE ourselves attribute to him, attributes that we know can only belong to the one true God, How can we insist that those Greeks worshiped the True God, but Muslims worship something else?? I am no fan of Mohammed, but this would be both untrue and unjust.
 
I wish to extend my apologies to anyone who I may have unwittingly offended not just in this thread but throughout these message boards here at CAF.

You see, my understanding and philosophy regarding faith is really very simple i.e. since faith is the relationship between the creations and their Creator, then it has to be as simple and pure as it possibly can be.

Just like the relationship between a baby and it’s mother is so very simple and pure, so too should the relationship between the Creator and His creation be very simple and pure in order for the creations to derive the most benefit from this relationship with their Creator.

And so, I really do not understand… and nor do I even seek to understand any perceived complexity in the relationship between us and Our Lord and Creator.
:blessyou:

You have me just as confused, is this discussion still, Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God? or is it, Do Christians worship God in the same way as Muslims? - :ehh: because on this thread some have pointed toward the Angel Gabriel, who being a messenger sent from God, had revealed His word (the Qur’an) to the prophet Mohammed and prior to that, Gabriel delivered the announcement, that was propheticized from the prophets in scripture, of the birth of a Savior/redeemer/and Messiah that was to be born through Mary (the house of David). Theotokos, as I understand this to be and in order to make a correct correlation between both religions before answering, Yes or No, and for you and others to assimilate (Absorb and integrate or to take in and gather) information on Theotokos is as (from what I wrote)

“Theotokos specifically excludes the understanding of Mary as Mother of God in the eternal sense. Christians believe that God is the cause of all, with neither origin nor source, and is therefore without a mother or father, or any relation except for what is homoousian to Him: only the persons of the Holy Trinity. He is ontologically separate from all other beings, as Creator to creation.” LINK – That were the difference are…can we answer a simple, Yes or No - (edit)

It would be nice if you read the post (in general) and understood what’s being said without writing that person or that someone off completely, that part was very rude - considering the other posters. Also, if you’re a teacher of your faith - which I not sure,and as I’ve take out much time for those who I have meant within it, some with the same cultural background as you, are wonderful to converse with and happy to at least listen - and the apology you gave was to all board members on this thread or to the entire forum, do you feel that was necessary to go to that extent - like you, a simple apology was the only thing warranted without having to go out to far to do it and out of reach.

"Wherefore then serves the Law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by ANGELS in the hand of a mediator” Galatians 3:19

The Law and the Promise:

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

and Thank you, Marcarios!!! for the post you gave!
Mary
 
by this criterion or yard stick there are no infidels or even pagans - of course what is really in contention or doubt is whether their God is the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus Christ and whether JC was wrong in what He said - twinc
furthermore it seems to me and imho that the Christian God and Father of Jesus was/is,until rejected,the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob with no mention of Ishmael - so did God forget to mention this in all three Gospels and the Acts - twinc
 
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