Do Christmas trees have Christian or secular "Roots"

[tabcom]

This fear of Christmas trees is a manifestation of the fear in some that they can by accident or through some kind of trickery end up worshiping the wrong God or Satan . . . . It just doesn’t work like that.

TMC, from this statement, it gives me the impression that you are not familiar with Scripture. Before I proceed, are you aware that there are 2 Jesus’ in the New Testament?

Most Christians have pagan roots, but today they belong to Christ.

“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” [2 Corinthians 6:17]

 

[tabcom]

1. Before Abraham, by strict definition, all people were ‘pagan’. Therefore, even the Jewish people have ‘pagan’ roots.

God’s blessing of Abraham and his descendants, who later came to include Christians is conditional (see Leviticus 26:14-39).

Leviticus 18:21, 24, 30 – Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch ( sun - god ) – Defile not yourselves in “any of these things” – Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not “anyone of these abominable customs” – and that ye defile not yourselves therein.

Deuteonomy 12:30, 32 – (speaking of the heathen sun and moon worship) Take heed – inquire not of their gods – What thing soever I command you observe and do it “thall shalt not add thereto nor diminish from it.”

God promised 3 judgments: sword, famine, and pestilence on all who disobeyed his law (commandment). After much long suffering, the 4th judgement upon disobedient children was “the beast” (the sword of the ruling empire).

These judgments were always sent upon the people of God who went worshiping pagan gods.

With respects, to you analogy of the christmas tree to the wood of the ark of the covenant – that is a new one even for me, and I’ve been studying the pagan roots of the christmas tree for 9 years.

The tree that Jeremiah prophesies against has characteristics similar to the christmas tree:

1. Cut out of the the forest
2. Propped upright before it rots.
3. Decked with silver and gold.

 

[TMC]

TMC, from this statement, it gives me the impression that you are not familiar with Scripture. Before I proceed, are you aware that there are 2 Jesus’ in the New Testament?
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,” [2 Corinthians 6:17]

Tabcom - I am both very familiar with Scripture AND unaware that there are two Jesus’ in the New Testament. Please enlighten me as to who the second one is and which acts or statements of Jesus should be attributed to him.

 

[Leopard]

The point is, there is no Scriptural precedent to celebrate anyone’s birthday.

There is no scriptural precedent for doing most things people do, such as changing the oil in their cars regularly, separating their recyclables from their garbage, wearing their seat belts, or fast-forwarding through commercials when you watch that episode of Dancing with the Stars that you taped last night while you were out. Do you scrupulously avoid doing these things and every other conceivable thing that is unprecedented in the Scriptures?

 

[Leopard]

Leopard:

But we Christians can and do say in full truth that Jesus is the reason for the Christmas season.

What exactly does that mean?

Just what is says: that Jesus is the reason we Christians celebrate the Christmas season. Without Jesus it would have no purpose for us.

Oh, I don’t mean that if the Church didn’t celebrate Christmas, or if the Church had decided to celebrate it at a different time of year, that we Christians might not observe some alternative religious or civic celebration during what we currently consider the Christmas season, but we’re not playing “*what if? *”. We are dealing with reality as it is. The Church does observe Christmas when she does, so Jesus is the reason we Christians celebrate the Christmas season.

 

[Conservative]

WOW - This one sure has turned into “dueling Bible quotes” hasn’t it? For the sake of some Christmas clarifications:

1. Nino, I’m Italian, too…No, I’m Sicilian, which means I’m really Italian ! (LOL) But I think/hope that many Catholics already know that while St. Francis of Assisi started the creche comparable to what we use today, it was a cave.

The Bible says the angels told shepherds they’d find The Babe lying in a manger. We say “stable” in Bethlehem, which is where the animals are kept but it was more likely a cave. I’ve been to Bethlehem’s fields and shown similar caves. Also, the birthplace (yes, the word is “birth”) of Christ is below the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. You have to go down a flight of stairs to see the place marked. It didn’t look like a stable to me. It did resemble stone under the glass.

1. The tree is not a religious symbol. Nor are wreaths, garlands, strings of lights, etc. We know this and must keep it in mind during this holy season. It’s just a deco and needs a Nativity set beneath it - not gift packages - to show you’re “in the know”. Ironically though - trees and greens have taken center stage not only in our homes but into Catholic churches. When I learned about the druid connection, I was concerned seeing them in churches. I’d rather just see altar flowers replaced by poinsettas and the Church creche decorated appropriately. In public places, however, where Menorahs and other religions’ symbols are displayed for “equality” sake, it’s up to Christians to insist that the Christmas tree be replaced by the Nativity. Make a noise about it in that case.
2. Re dates: Has anyone read Anna Catherine Emmerich? I don’t know if she’s Venerable or Blessed. In speaking about dates, she believed the date was not December 25 but rather November 25 - thereby making the Annunciation February rather than March.

Of course, there are no dates mentioned in Scripture. But we do have the testament that it was at the time when Caesar Augustus called for a census, which gives us some historical timelines to work with. We can only wonder about Anna Catherine Emmerich’s revelations. We are told that it was not December but that Christians later chose that time of year to avoid persecution by celebrating the Birth of Our Lord during the same timeline as a pagan holiday.

1. As for gifts? I think I read a dispute over gift-giving. I can’t give you backup here - but I know I’ve heard it (and maybe it was from Anna Catherine Emmerich (?) also. That frankincense or myrrh (items used for burial) - not sure if Our Lady kept them for Our Lord’s burial, so someone will have to correct me royally if I’m wrong.

That’s all I know. Sorry for being longwinded.
I can hear the critics coming already !
God help me,
Conservative

 

[water]

A piece of wood can be a tool when someone uses it to strike somebody’s head until death; the very same piece of wood can be used to warm up a dying homeless man.

This piece of wood comes from a Christmas tree. It does not matter if it has Christian root or secular root; it matters on how we use it.

 

[tabcom]

Tabcom - I am both very familiar with Scripture AND unaware that there are two Jesus’ in the New Testament. Please enlighten me as to who the second one is.

With respects to this statement . . .

This fear of Christmas trees is a manifestation of the fear in some that they can by accident or through some kind of trickery end up worshiping the wrong God or Satan . . . . It just doesn’t work like that.

The Bible teaches that it does . . .
The other Jesus in the bible that I was referring to is the one Paul speaks of in the 11th Chapter of 2 Cor.

II Cor 11:3,4,13-15 But I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled (exapatao - seduce wholly) Eve through his subtility (panourgia - shrewd, clever, cunning), so your minds should be corrupted (phtheiro - deprave, ruin, defile) from the simplicity (haplos-singleness, implies pure or holy) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth “another Jesus”-- (this is not the Jesus of the Bible that says we must take up our cross daily, deny (aparneomai - utterly contradict) ourselves, forsake all that we have or we cannot be his disciple - Luke 9:23;14:27,33) --whom we have not preached, or if ye receive “another spirit”, (small s–the Holy Spirit is Truth - John 14:17, 15:26, & 16:13, 1 John 5:6-- They will preach another truth, which is not the truth at all, but a lie disguised as the truth) – which ye have not received, or “another gospel”,–the true gospel is death to the flesh/self and the resurrection daily in our mortal bodies - 1 Cor 15:1-4, 2 Cor 4:10-12,16,17 - The “other Jesus” requires no death to self, no daily cross, no self denial, but rather, this Jesus does not resurrect in us daily – instead he says to us that we can “distribute fortunes” (daemon) to ourselves thus ruling our own flesh, setting our own rules and overthrowing (diabolos) the law of God in our lives – this gospel is no gospel, that fulfills the flesh.) It is the devil’s counterfeit gospel.-which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles deceitful (dolios- to live by trickery, decoy, guile) workers, transforming (metaschematizo - disguise or change) themselves into the apostles of Christ (It is the devil disguised as Jesus)–but it is another Jesus. And no marvel - for Satan himself is transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) into an angel of light… Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works. (They will pass themselves off as truth-sayers when they are soothsayers.)

 

[Conservative]

A piece of wood can be a tool when someone uses it to strike somebody’s head until death; the very same piece of wood can be used to warm up a dying homeless man.

This piece of wood comes from a Christmas tree. It does not matter if it has Christian root or secular root; it matters on how we use it.

Very well said - and some of that wood might just have been used to make next year’s ‘stable’ for a Nativity set. Makes you think.

Conservative

 

[TMC]

With respects to this statement . . .The Bible teaches that it does . . .
The other Jesus in the bible that I was referring to is the one Paul speaks of in the 11th Chapter of 2 Cor.

II Cor 11:3,4,13-15 But I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled (exapatao - seduce wholly) Eve through his subtility (panourgia - shrewd, clever, cunning), so your minds should be corrupted (phtheiro - deprave, ruin, defile) from the simplicity (haplos-singleness, implies pure or holy) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth “another Jesus”-- (this is not the Jesus of the Bible that says we must take up our cross daily, deny (aparneomai - utterly contradict) ourselves, forsake all that we have or we cannot be his disciple - Luke 9:23;14:27,33) --whom we have not preached, or if ye receive “another spirit”, (small s–the Holy Spirit is Truth - John 14:17, 15:26, & 16:13, 1 John 5:6-- They will preach another truth, which is not the truth at all, but a lie disguised as the truth) – which ye have not received, or “another gospel”,–the true gospel is death to the flesh/self and the resurrection daily in our mortal bodies - 1 Cor 15:1-4, 2 Cor 4:10-12,16,17 - The “other Jesus” requires no death to self, no daily cross, no self denial, but rather, this Jesus does not resurrect in us daily – instead he says to us that we can “distribute fortunes” (daemon) to ourselves thus ruling our own flesh, setting our own rules and overthrowing (diabolos) the law of God in our lives – this gospel is no gospel, that fulfills the flesh.) It is the devil’s counterfeit gospel.-which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles deceitful (dolios- to live by trickery, decoy, guile) workers, transforming (metaschematizo - disguise or change) themselves into the apostles of Christ (It is the devil disguised as Jesus)–but it is another Jesus. And no marvel - for Satan himself is transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) into an angel of light… Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works. (They will pass themselves off as truth-sayers when they are soothsayers.)

This is so off base that I am not sure where to start. Paul is warning about those that change the message of Christ. Not that there is another person named Jesus who is evil, but that some will distort Christ’s teachings and led people into error. Of course this has happened many times. But this is completly different from accidentally worshiping some demon or whatever. If you take a tree and decorate it for Christ, dedicate it to Christ, keep it in your house as a symbol of the Father’s gift of Jesus and new life to the world, you can’t at the same time be “accidentally” supporting some non-existent pagan God. Is God so weak that He cannot keep his worshipers with Him? Is Christ so mercurial and arbitrary as to reject sincere worship if the form is not precise?

If you twist Christ’s teachings to mean what you please, then you are not accidentally doing anything. You are deliberately following your own rules and calling them God’s rules. That has nothing to do getting tricked into evil by a magic stick of wood. The turn away from God and towards oneself comes from within oneself, from a poorly formed conscience or a willfully defiant heart. It doesn’t come from a demon’s magic trick.

 

[tabcom]

There are two Jesus’ in the bible.

How does a Believer tell the difference between them? By their doctrine.

Satan’s Doctrine = the doctrine of fulfill self (1 John 2:15-17).

John gives such warnings in 1 John 2:15-17.

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

That sums up the material world. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life. That is the unholy trinity that caused Eve to fall when she was seduced by the serpent and accepted her gift from the first christmas tree.

**
Jesus’ Doctrine = the doctrine of death to self (Luke 9:23) **

And (Jesus) was saying to {them} all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Perform this experiment this christmas season. While watching television, listening to the radio, reading the newspaper, going to the mall, or simply going shopping, take a critical look at what the message is being sent by these advertisements and in the churches. Is any of it preaching the Doctrine of Christ? Or is it preaching the devils doctrine of fulfill self?

 

[water]

tabcom,

the computer is part of this world. Why can’t you have it? why can’t you have internet?

You know the internet can help you come here to share your faith with us. At the same time, you can be tempted watching adult graphics on different website.

Why do you choose to come to this site instead of some bad adult websites with your internet service?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Are Christmas trees Christian or are they merely another secularization to the birth of Christ.

Hi Steve…good to catch up with you again in these Forums:thumbsup:
I have not read all the posts in this thread, the title struck me. I apologize for not reading all posts and my points may have been covered.
I think if some secular type celebration or way of celebrating has no actual Christian roots we can always give it our own…for example, a Christmas Tree can mean for us The Church (“I am the vine, you are the branches”) - the glowing star right at the top can remind us of Christ, Head of The Church…and all the decorations and lights the virtues and glowing lives of many Catholics. If a light should go out, or a decoration fall, I am reminded to pray for the sins within The Church. The fact that the lights need some sort of power source to glow reminds me that in order to shine and grow we need to be ‘plugged in’ to our Power Source - Christ.

Another example is the gatherings and parties that take place during the Christmas season…these remind me to celebrate not only spiritually but in very human ways to give thanks for He who became fully human in every way for our sake. Any sort of party or celebration in our human life, remind me that Jesus too partook of the celebrations in His own day. They can also remind me of a great favourite of mine St. Paul, who took the Gospel to the gentiles…and our call not to abandon the world, but to be the salt or leaven within the world offering it to Christ in that way. Each in our own way appropriate to our own lives can find ways to be fully Catholic wherever we are…even at a Christmas party. For example, I never say “Merry Christmas”, I always say “Happy Christmas” or “A joyful Christmas to you”…it is just my little way of being Catholic in Christmas greetings. On my Christmas Card envelopes I write “Keep Christ in Christmas”…the intentions we have in these very small even hidden ways of being Catholic brings Grace, I believe, into a situation. We sow, Christ grants the increase.

Blessings and my regards…Barb
An aside: One year I got a Christmas Card back with “Keep prawns and beer in Christmas” from a secular friend of mine…so I sent another card back with"Keep Christ, prawns and beer in Christmas"

 

[peary]

Are Christmas trees Christian or are they merely another secularization to the birth of Christ.

**Does it really matter? Even if the trees had a pagan origin in whatever culture from which it originated, Christians took it on as their own, decorating the trees to celebrate the birth of Christ. A creche was added below the tree, and a star was placed on top of the tree. Originally, the tree was lighted by candles and shiny ornaments to represent the stars in the firmament of the sky. The shape of the tree denoted the rays of the star of Bethlehem (the star on top of the tree) falling upon the creche of the Holy Family and the Magi as well as God’s grace and love to all humanity. Garland and streamers point both up and down on the tree to represent this.

Thus, Christmas trees are VERY Christian, although nowadays, you can have them without the creche just for decoration. But it does not detract from the Christian symbolism of what the trees mean.**

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Does it really matter? Even if the trees had a pagan origin in whatever culture from which it originated, Christians took it on as their own, decorating the trees to celebrate the birth of Christ. A creche was added below the tree, and a star was placed on top of the tree. Originally, the tree was lighted by candles and shiny ornaments to represent the stars in the firmament of the sky. The shape of the tree denoted the rays of the star of Bethlehem (the star on top of the tree) falling upon the creche of the Holy Family and the Magi as well as God’s grace and love to all humanity. Garland and streamers point both up and down on the tree to represent this.

Thus, Christmas trees are VERY Christian, although nowadays, you can have them without the creche just for decoration. But it does not detract from the Christian symbolism of what the trees mean.

A beautiful reflection on a Christmas Tree - thank you, Peary.
I am hoping to put my tree up today and will have some lovely reflections and prayers as I put it up.

Barb

 

[tabcom]

Any sort of party or celebration in our human life, remind me that Jesus too partook of the celebrations in His own day.

He was not attending a pagan party. Besides that, the Living God does not need a pagan festival to call His Elect Family. He’s got the Holy Spirit for that purpose.

Does it really matter? Even if the trees had a pagan origin in whatever culture from which it originated,

It mattered to Elijah. It mattered to Jeremiah. It matters to me.
The God of the Bible says don’t do it.

Christians took it on as their own, decorating the trees to celebrate the birth of Christ.

There is no precedent in the Bible that requires the believer to take the ashtroth and christianize it. Nor is there an ordiance to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Originally, the tree was lighted by candles and shiny ornaments to represent the stars in the firmament of the sky.

Originally, it is the celebration of the pagan festival the Saturnalia.

The shape of the tree denoted the rays of the star of Bethlehem (the star on top of the tree) falling upon the creche of the Holy Family and the Magi as well as God’s grace and love to all humanity. Garland and streamers point both up and down on the tree to represent this.

IMHO, what is evil about all this symbolism is that it causes the baby believer in Christ to get confused about the proper way to be a Christian. They are mislead into thinking that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they get presents and cake. That is not what is required in the believer. What Jesus requires of His Family is the daily cross. That is dying to self. Not taking pagan festivals and christianize them.

 

[water]

That is dying to self.

Have you done this yet?

 

[water]

IMHO, what is evil about all this symbolism is that it causes the baby believer in Christ to get confused about the proper way to be a Christian. They are mislead into thinking that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they get presents and cake. That is not what is required in the believer. What Jesus requires of His Family is the daily cross. That is dying to self. Not taking pagan festivals and christianize them.

You are partially correct on the paragraph above that nowaday when comes to this Christmas season, some people are more worried about presents than Jesus.

You are wrong when you said “They are mislead into thinking that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they get presents and cake.”

 

[tabcom]

Constantine implemented the Christ mass into the Roman church in the 4th century A.D. He desired to conciliate the heathen by amalgamating Christianity with the pagan festival called the Saturnalia (feast of Saturn, the sun god). The priests of the sun god offered their children upon their altars. It was said by the pagans that their messiah (Hercules, Adonis. Tammuz, etc.) was incorporated in their sacrifices. The sun god of Babylon was Baal. the same idolatry that polluted Israel when Jezebel, the daughter of Ethbaal (King of Sidon), married Ahab, King of northern Israel (I Kings 16:31-33). Historians tell us that Ethbaal was a priest of the Astarte, the tree goddess of Babylon (female deity to Baal).

 

[peary]

I am re-posting my post:

**Does it really matter? Even if the trees had a pagan origin in whatever culture from which it originated, Christians took it on as their own, decorating the trees to celebrate the birth of Christ. A creche was added below the tree, and a star was placed on top of the tree. Originally, the tree was lighted by candles and shiny ornaments to represent the stars in the firmament of the sky. The shape of the tree denoted the rays of the star of Bethlehem (the star on top of the tree) falling upon the creche of the Holy Family and the Magi as well as God’s grace and love to all humanity. Garland and streamers point both up and down on the tree to represent this.

Thus, Christmas trees are VERY Christian, although nowadays, you can have them without the creche just for decoration. But it does not detract from the Christian symbolism of what the trees mean.**

And I see nothing wrong with “Christmas trees” in a Church setting. Read the above.