Do conservative Christian teachings on homosexuality cause hatred and violence against the LGBT community?

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes, and I understand why he cares about sex. There is more of a foundation to our relationship than sex, that just happens to be the way he really connects most intimately. For me, it’s deep conversation and just spending time alone together. But for me to ask for what I want in regards to intimacy, I believe in also giving what he considers most intimate.

I will pray for you two that you both can join the fullness of the Catholic Church and stay together.

Yet the condition of SSA is described as “disordered.” To me, that doesn’t sound like a very positive foundation on which to build.

It is the temptation to engage in gay sex that is disordered, not being attracted to the same sex.

 

[Rau]

This is why I don’t think Church language should be used in an attempt to start dialogue, unless brought up by the other party. The option isn’t saying objectively disordered or holding that homosexuality is a good thing. It is neither good nor bad in itself. It is morally neutral. See the following for information, and please note this isn’t a ‘liberal’ website, it’s EWTN.

ewtn.com/library/humanity/homo14.htm

Objectively disordered just sounds to most like a mental illness. One is not flawed or bad for having homosexual attraction. One simply is.

I agree that the language is inappropriate in many contexts. But in our theological context, it is accurate. “Objectively disordered” is not a moral judgement. Nor is my statement that “SSA (by which term I mean an attraction to same sex sexual acts) is not a good thing”.

 

[PRmerger]

Whether it is or is not, what I am saying is that, for gay people, calling their condition disordered, even if not sinful, is not exactly the best way to encourage dialogue.

Whenever we discuss SSA, perhaps you should substitute any kind of disordered desire and see if you can understand the Catholic position.

I think because you don’t see SSA as disordered, it veils the way you view our Catholic understanding.

So see if you can insert whatever disordered desire you imagine, and tell me if this helps you understand our position.

 

[meltzerboy]

I will pray for you two that you both can join the fullness of the Catholic Church and stay together.

It is the temptation to engage in gay sex that is disordered, not being attracted to the same sex.

I didn’t realize that was the meaning. Are you sure? Also, that sounds like a very fine line.

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t realize that was the meaning. Are you sure? Also, that sounds like a very fine line.

It is indeed a very fine line.

We are supposed to be attracted to others. That’s part of our nature.

We are not supposed to be sexually attracted to others of the same sex, however.

 

[Rau]

I didn’t realize that was the meaning. Are you sure? Also, that sounds like a very fine line.

I am sure you have friends of the same sex. They would not be your friends were you to experience no attraction (of some kind) to them. I am “attracted” to my closest friends. I am very happy to have an opportunity to be with them. The relationship incorporates a kind of intellectual closeness as well as elements of openness, care and concern and preparedness to sacrifice. It is in fact a kind of love.

But we don’t describe the above as SSA - it is simply (close) friendship.

One can debate whether attractions beyond the above, eg. those incorporating romantic ideas and extending to physically intimate encounters between adults, but short of sexual (genital) contact, is congruent with an attraction to sexual acts. I’ve seen it argued both ways here on CAF. I suspect the prevailing opinion is that the former is a prelude to the latter, at least for the majority, and thus regarded as sexual.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I didn’t realize that was the meaning. Are you sure? Also, that sounds like a very fine line.

Yes, I am quite sure. Being tempted towards gay sex is neither a sin or nor does it indicate that the person affected is bad in any way, it is simply one of the myriad forms concupiscence can take. To love someone and have an intimate while nonsexual relationship is fine. Yes, it can be a near occasion of sin, but a near occasion of sin isn’t in itself a sin.

I am sure you have friends of the same sex. They would not be your friends were you to experience no attraction (of some kind) to them. I am “attracted” to my closest friends. I am very happy to have an opportunity to be with them. The relationship incorporates a kind of intellectual closeness as well as elements of openness, care and concern and preparedness to sacrifice. It is in fact a kind of love.

But we don’t describe the above as SSA - it is simply (close) friendship.

One can debate whether attractions beyond the above, eg. those incorporating romantic ideas and extending to physically intimate encounters between adults, but short of sexual (genital) contact, is congruent with an attraction to sexual acts. I’ve seen it argued both ways here on CAF. I suspect the prevailing opinion is that the former is a prelude to the latter, at least for the majority, and thus regarded as sexual.

I don’t think cuddling is sexual even if it is physically intimate, making out on the other hand is generally an extremely unwise idea as for many, perhaps most, it has a tendency to lead to more carnal things.

 

[Rosebud77]

The Leviticus passages that still obtain are not limited to the proscription of homosexual behavior. to wit:
1The LORD said to Moses:
2Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them: Be holy, for I, the LORD your God, am holy.* a
3* Each of you revere your mother and father,b and keep my sabbaths.c I, the LORD, am your God.
4Do not turn aside to idols, nor make molten gods for yourselves.d I, the LORD, am your God.
11* You shall not steal. You shall not deceive or speak falsely to one another.h 12You shall not swear falsely by my name, thus profaning the name of your God.i I am the LORD.
13You shall not exploit your neighbor. You shall not commit robbery.
14* You shall not insult the deaf, or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but you shall fear your God. I am the LORD.
15You shall not act dishonestly in rendering judgment. Show neither partiality to the weak nor deference to the mighty, but judge your neighbor justly.k
16You shall not go about spreading slander among your people; nor shall you stand by idly when your neighbor’s life is at stake. I am the LORD.
17* You shall not hate any of your kindred in your heart. Reprove your neighbor openly so that you do not incur sin because of that person.l
18Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your own people. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.m
29You shall not degrade your daughter by making a prostitute of her;u otherwise the land will prostitute itself and become full of lewdness. 30Keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary.v I am the LORD.
31Do not turn to ghosts or consult spirits, by which you will be defiled.w I, the LORD, am your God.
32Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the old, and fear your God. I am the LORD.
35Do not act dishonestly in using measures of length or weight or capacity. 36You shall have a true scale and true weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin.* z I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Today no major Christian church requires observance of all 613 precepts of the Old Testament law, ethical and ceremonial, but only the ethical commands such as the Decalogue and command to love God and neighbor.

Thank you for this; it has brought tears to my old eyes… Deeply moving, had i a printer would copy this and give out copies…

Re leviticus also. Many of the dietary laws were simply “hygiene” and safety for what was a mobile community in a hot climate. Shellfish and pork… notorious foods in such conditions.

 

[Rau]

…I don’t think cuddling is sexual even if it is physically intimate, making out on the other hand is generally an extremely unwise idea as for many, perhaps most, it has a tendency to lead to more carnal things.

I think that statement can’t be generally assumed - it is more likely something to be assessed case by case. The word “cuddling” is ambiguous (to say nothing of “making out”), as a review of the images a Google search of the word presents will confirm! When I was dating in my youth, cuddling my girlfriend could give rise to other interests that would lead in an obvious direction. Certainly “making out” is more overtly sexual.

 

[Rosebud77]

I think that statement can’t be generally assumed - it is more likely something to be assessed case by case. The word “cuddling” is ambiguous (to say nothing of “making out”), as a review of the images a Google search of the word presents will confirm! When I was dating in my youth, cuddling my girlfriend could give rise to other interests that would lead in an obvious direction. Certainly “making out” is more overtly sexual.

Reminds me of the old I think it was Amish ways, kids were allowed to “bundle”. ie lie close together but well each separately coccooned in blankets… . Cannot see it would have helped matters.

 

[o_mlly]

“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you”.
It is confusing are quotations such as this ethical and therefore to be observed or ceremonial and can be ignored ?

In context Leviticus 25:
42Since they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt, they shall not sell themselves as slaves are sold.
43Do not lord it over them harshly, but stand in fear of your God.
44* The male and female slaves that you possess—these you shall acquire from the nations round about you.
45You may also acquire them from among the resident aliens who reside with you, and from their families who are with you, those whom they bore in your land. These you may possess,
46and bequeath to your children as their hereditary possession forever. You may treat them as slaves. But none of you shall lord it harshly over any of your fellow Israelites.
I think akin to the legislator today who acts to mitigate because he cannot eliminate the evils of abortion, Leviticus laws regarding slavery mitigate the evils of the practice of slavery. Today, slavery in the western world is abolished.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I think that statement can’t be generally assumed - it is more likely something to be assessed case by case. The word “cuddling” is ambiguous (to say nothing of “making out”), as a review of the images a Google search of the word presents will confirm! When I was dating in my youth, cuddling my girlfriend could give rise to other interests that would lead in an obvious direction. Certainly “making out” is more overtly sexual.

I said cuddling not heavy petting. What, would physical closeness make you want to touch her in places? Would you prefer snuggle? Snuggling with someone is an excellent way to be intimate and be close.

Is it cuddling that’d do it or is it more of being near your girlfriend and thinking no one was watching or interrupt you if you decided to do things? Not everyone is a horny teenage male.

 

[buffalo]

Whether it is or is not, what I am saying is that, for gay people, calling their condition disordered, even if not sinful, is not exactly the best way to encourage dialogue.

Confusion sets in when one is not clear. They already have a sense that their desires are disordered. Now society is trying to convince them that it is not. Good luck with that. The blame has been shifted to an intolerant society. That will not last either.

 

[Ender]

Whether it is or is not, what I am saying is that, for gay people, calling their condition disordered, even if not sinful, is not exactly the best way to encourage dialogue.

Let’s be clear about this: the church considers homosexual acts to be “intrinsically disordered.” She has not said that about the “condition” of SSA.

Ender

 

[PatrickKennedy]

In context Leviticus 25:
42Since they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt, they shall not sell themselves as slaves are sold.
43Do not lord it over them harshly, but stand in fear of your God.
44* The male and female slaves that you possess—these you shall acquire from the nations round about you.
45You may also acquire them from among the resident aliens who reside with you, and from their families who are with you, those whom they bore in your land. These you may possess,
46and bequeath to your children as their hereditary possession forever. You may treat them as slaves. But none of you shall lord it harshly over any of your fellow Israelites.
I think akin to the legislator today who acts to mitigate because he cannot eliminate the evils of abortion, Leviticus laws regarding slavery mitigate the evils of the practice of slavery. Today, slavery in the western world is abolished.

I don’t agree. If, as we are led to believe, these laws are made by God not man why would they ‘mitigate’ rather than dictate. I don’t agree with that hypothesis at all

 

[meltzerboy]

Let’s be clear about this: the church considers homosexual acts to be “intrinsically disordered.” She has not said that about the “condition” of SSA.

Ender

I thought the Church considers SSA ‘intrinsically disordered,’ or, more particularly, the temptation to engage in gay sex, although the temptation is not sinful; whereas homosexual acts are sinful. Isn’t that the distinction?

 

[Rau]

I thought the Church considers SSA ‘intrinsically disordered,’ or, more particularly, the temptation to engage in gay sex, although the temptation is not sinful; whereas homosexual acts are sinful. Isn’t that the distinction?

No.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. …“Intrinsically disordered” means something different. It means “always wrong to choose”. It refers to a human “act”. It refers to those acts that are never justifiable regardless of good intentions or the circumstances.

 

[Rau]

…What, would physical closeness make you want to touch her in places? Would you prefer snuggle? Snuggling with someone is an excellent way to be intimate and be close.

Physical closeness, in a romantic context, can give rise to a desire for greater physical closeness. It is not reasonable to fail to see the potential for progression.

If one experiences desire for such a progression (from cuddling), then arguably the cuddling itself could be considered “sexual” in nature. After all, it is the sex of the other party that is a central factor in determining whether or not we are drawn to “cuddle” in the first place.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Physical closeness, in a romantic context, can give rise to a desire for greater physical closeness. It is not reasonable to fail to see the potential for progression.

If one experiences desire for such a progression (from cuddling), then arguably the cuddling itself could be considered “sexual” in nature. After all, it is the sex of the other party that is a central factor in determining whether or not we are drawn to “cuddle” in the first place.

I’ve cuddled with plenty of female friends I didn’t plan on having sex. To me cuddling promotes closeness and expresses that I enjoy spending time with them. It seems to strengthen my friendships and reduces stress and anxiety.

 

[Rau]

I’ve cuddled with plenty of female friends I didn’t plan on having sex. To me cuddling promotes closeness and expresses that I enjoy spending time with them. It seems to strengthen my friendships and reduces stress and anxiety.

I agree that not every cuddle is sexual, which seems to be consistent with my point about case by case. The context you describe is not one involving romantic feelings or SSA.