R
rlg94086
Guest
As Brother JR points out, the Muslim students aren’t requesting it. The lawsuit has nothing to do with them.
Do Crosses at Catholic U Violate "Human Rights" of Muslim Students?
- Status
N
NewEnglandPriest
Guest
I never said it did…
R
richard_wang
Guest
There is a failure to see the real issue in the complaint.
Does the state have the right to dictate how a religious organization conducts its business?
For example, before the US Supreme Court is *Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
*
In its arguments, the Department of Justice makes the claim that in discrimination suits, churches should be treated just like any other organization.
So if the DOJ prevails, The Catholic Church could be sued for discrimination because it doesn’t allow women to be priests.
This is not about whether to provide or not provide a place for Muslim worship.
This is not about whether Muslim students did or did not complain.
This is about whether a government entity, the Human Rights Commission, has the power to investigate and perhaps rule on the legality and appropriateness of a church’s religious practice.
This is about the “Establishment Clause” of the Constitution.
The outcome of this complaint can have very grave consequences.
It is no small matter.
Does the state have the right to dictate how a religious organization conducts its business?
For example, before the US Supreme Court is *Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
*
In its arguments, the Department of Justice makes the claim that in discrimination suits, churches should be treated just like any other organization.
So if the DOJ prevails, The Catholic Church could be sued for discrimination because it doesn’t allow women to be priests.
This is not about whether to provide or not provide a place for Muslim worship.
This is not about whether Muslim students did or did not complain.
This is about whether a government entity, the Human Rights Commission, has the power to investigate and perhaps rule on the legality and appropriateness of a church’s religious practice.
This is about the “Establishment Clause” of the Constitution.
The outcome of this complaint can have very grave consequences.
It is no small matter.
N
NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Colleges/Universities are not pure religious organizations. They receive federal money and thus are subject to federal regulations. They also deal with secular issues and do not exist solely for the purpose of worship and doctrine.
Yes and no. There is a religious exemption in the law, the issue at hand in the case you cite was whether the complainant’s firing fell under the religious exemption or not.
Not even close. Who can and can’t be a minister is solely related to worship and doctrine. Even if the government prevails in the case mentioned above it would have zero effect on the issue of women priests.
Religious schools are not necessarily considered a church’s religious practice. Especially if federal funds are involved.
G
graceandglory
Guest
Certainly paves the way for Catholic hospitals to be sued for accepting Medicare and other insurances as payment, if there are crucifixes in the rooms.
Or, has that already happened?
Or, has that already happened?
R
richard_wang
Guest
Or suing a Church for discrimination for not allowing a same-sex couple to have their “wedding” reception on church property.
Oh, that already happened in New Jersey…the lesbians won.
C
centurionguard
Guest
Really? Do you have documentation to back your statement up.
That State can’t force a Catholic Priest to marry any Catholic gay/lesbian couples in the Church or have a Wedding reception on their owned property.
C
Chaplain777
Guest
It would seem to me that if the Muslim students did not file the complaint or hire the lawyer on their behalf, and the professor from the other college does not teach at the Catholic college, then this lawyer has no standing from which to file the suit.
Human Rights? What human right has been violated? I don’t remember seeing anything about a human right stating that all Catholic Colleges will remove religious symbols for muslims…rediculous. Plenty of secular schools to attend should any muslims become outraged.
Human Rights? What human right has been violated? I don’t remember seeing anything about a human right stating that all Catholic Colleges will remove religious symbols for muslims…rediculous. Plenty of secular schools to attend should any muslims become outraged.
T
the_phoenix
Guest
No, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of Muslims students. And no, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of legal activist professors like John Banzhaf, either.
…
…
C
centurionguard
Guest
It surely doesn’t make sense to me. If Muslim’s wants to attend a Catholic University they do so by following the rules and regulations of the Catholic University. Its not like the Catholic University is forcing Catholic religion down their throat. If there’s Catholic symbols, paintings, and crucifixes in rooms and hallways why should a Muslim object to it.
It is after all a Catholic University. If he doesn’t like it he should go to another university.
How should he have any legal standing how the Catholic University decides to decorate and furnish its own University.?
T
the_phoenix
Guest
Exactly.
Thanks for pointing it out for others who may have missed that point.
What I’ve posted previously still stands.
No, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of Muslims students. And no, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of legal activist professors like John Banzhaf, either.
…
Thanks for pointing it out for others who may have missed that point.
What I’ve posted previously still stands.
No, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of Muslims students. And no, crosses at Catholic U do not violate the “human rights” of legal activist professors like John Banzhaf, either.
…
P
Pat_Payne
Guest
THIS. The AMA allows only a set number of students to enter med school per year, yet there are no limits on law school entries. In my perfect world, those would be reversed – anyone who can demonstrate competence should be allowed to go to medical school, and we ought to severly restrict the number of lawyers being churned out by law schools. We need heart surgeons and geriatric doctors more than we need the John Banzhafs of the world clogging up the judicial system for the evulz and profit.
J
JReducation
Guest
PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A MUSLIM VS CATHOLIC ISSUE.
It’s not. It has never been that. The Muslims have been students at The Catholic University of America more than 30 years when the university opened its doors to non-Catholics. They have always been very gracious, complied with school policies, participated in the life of the university to the extent that they want to participate and some have even stayed on the staff after graduation
This is about a law professor who creates these test cases. The Catholic University has not been his only target. He has targetted the university twice. The first time was because the male and female students were assigned to sam-sex dormitory buildings. He claimed that this was discrimination against women.
The truth was that the move was made during the summer when the dorms were empty. No student was incovenienced by being asked to move. The university made sure to provide the same quality dorms. It was not as if the boys got all of the nice buildings and the girls got the old drafty buildings. No . . . in fact, the religious live in the old drafty buildings that were once the seminary dorms.
Hi current complaint is not only that the university does not provide a prayer space for Muslims, but that they have to live within the shadows the the university’s church. That’s ludicrous. The university’s church is the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. It’s only 1000 sq ft or so smaller than St. Peter’s. In other words, it’s as big as life. If anyone finds its presence offensive, they have ample warning before applying, because you can’t miss the darn building. Even if you were a blind golfer, you’d still hit it.
Here is the funny part about it. The Muslim students with whom I went to school at CUA actually liked the Basilica. There were two comments that I often heard. They liked the dome, because it’s very Eastern and they have a warm regard for Miriam of Nazareth.
My real fear is that Christian and Muslims who do not read all the information, be it here or elsewhere are going to turn this into a Muslim vs Catholics isse. That is not the case here. The Muslim students were as blindsided by this as everyone else.
Even if this lawyer had been retained by Muslims, it was not by any Muslim connected to the university. This is not the only place where Muslims attend Catholic universities. There has never been a problem. In fact, when the pope went to visit the Middle East, he stopped in Jordan. While in Jordan, he gave his public support for the first Muslim/Catholic university in the country. I’m not quite sure who owns it, but it seems to be operated jointly by the Church and the Muslims.
Situations like this only feed the fuel that ignites the fire in Radical Muslims. The worse part is that innocent Christians in other parts of the world get hit and hurt. Extremists are looking for an excuse to charge at Christians. If we respond by making it a Muslim vs Catholic, we’re feeding the extremists. Whereas, if we call it what it is, an individual who has and interest in testing every law in the books by creating test cases, there is nothing for radical extremists to munch on.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
And if we jump on this as an us vs them, those radical extremists who are looking for any excuse to attack Christians and Westerners, will feed on this. At the end of the day, it is our Catholic brothers and sisters in places like Iraq, Iran, and Syria who suffer. Because the Muslim people there are being fed what the radicals want them to hear.
We’re talking about The Catholic University of America. The official Pontifical University of the USA, which stands in Washington, DC. We know that the eyes of the world are on everything that happens in Washington. This would not go unnoticed by those who want to use it for their agenda. The story is being carried by The Washington Post, which is read around the world and who along with the NYT is neither Catholic nor Muslim friendly.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
We’re talking about The Catholic University of America. The official Pontifical University of the USA, which stands in Washington, DC. We know that the eyes of the world are on everything that happens in Washington. This would not go unnoticed by those who want to use it for their agenda. The story is being carried by The Washington Post, which is read around the world and who along with the NYT is neither Catholic nor Muslim friendly.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
We need to drop the “nasty Muslim” language. It’s not about them. They did nothing. They are innocent. It’s a coockoo lawyer.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
C
Chaplain777
Guest
I don’t get this comment OR why my post was included in your assumption that I am promoting Catholics against Muslims!PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A MUSLIM VS CATHOLIC ISSUE.
It’s not. It has never been that. The Muslims have been students at The Catholic University of America more than 30 years when the university opened its doors to non-Catholics. They have always been very gracious, complied with school policies, participated in the life of the university to the extent that they want to participate and some have even stayed on the staff after graduation
This is about a law professor who creates these test cases. The Catholic University has not been his only target. He has targetted the university twice. The first time was because the male and female students were assigned to sam-sex dormitory buildings. He claimed that this was discrimination against women.
The truth was that the move was made during the summer when the dorms were empty. No student was incovenienced by being asked to move. The university made sure to provide the same quality dorms. It was not as if the boys got all of the nice buildings and the girls got the old drafty buildings. No . . . in fact, the religious live in the old drafty buildings that were once the seminary dorms.
Hi current complaint is not only that the university does not provide a prayer space for Muslims, but that they have to live within the shadows the the university’s church. That’s ludicrous. The university’s church is the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. It’s only 1000 sq ft or so smaller than St. Peter’s. In other words, it’s as big as life. If anyone finds its presence offensive, they have ample warning before applying, because you can’t miss the darn building. Even if you were a blind golfer, you’d still hit it.
Here is the funny part about it. The Muslim students with whom I went to school at CUA actually liked the Basilica. There were two comments that I often heard. They liked the dome, because it’s very Eastern and they have a warm regard for Miriam of Nazareth.
My real fear is that Christian and Muslims who do not read all the information, be it here or elsewhere are going to turn this into a Muslim vs Catholics isse. That is not the case here. The Muslim students were as blindsided by this as everyone else.
Even if this lawyer had been retained by Muslims, it was not by any Muslim connected to the university. This is not the only place where Muslims attend Catholic universities. There has never been a problem. In fact, when the pope went to visit the Middle East, he stopped in Jordan. While in Jordan, he gave his public support for the first Muslim/Catholic university in the country. I’m not quite sure who owns it, but it seems to be operated jointly by the Church and the Muslims.
Situations like this only feed the fuel that ignites the fire in Radical Muslims. The worse part is that innocent Christians in other parts of the world get hit and hurt. Extremists are looking for an excuse to charge at Christians. If we respond by making it a Muslim vs Catholic, we’re feeding the extremists. Whereas, if we call it what it is, an individual who has and interest in testing every law in the books by creating test cases, there is nothing for radical extremists to munch on.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I plainly state that the STUDENTS DID NOT FILE THE CLAIM…yada yada…the guy has no standing. I then state that I think it is ridiculous to insist that Catholic colleges remove 2000 year old symbols to accommodate said group…which by the way could mean ANY group…and if this DOES offend them they can surely get into other schools devoid of other religious symbolism.
I believe your comment was uncalled for and in error. :tsktsk:
C
Chaplain777
Guest
What’s your beef with my last paragraph. Don’t beat around the bush, just say it!
J
JReducation
Guest
The bold is mineI don’t get this comment OR why my post was included in your assumption that I am promoting Catholics against Muslims!
I plainly state that the STUDENTS DID NOT FILE THE CLAIM…yada yada…the guy has no standing. I then state that I think it is ridiculous to insist that Catholic colleges remove 2000 year old symbols to accommodate said group…which by the way could mean ANY group…and if this DOES offend them they can surely get into other schools devoid of other religious symbolism.
I believe your comment was uncalled for and in error. :tsktsk:
Up to that point, we can agree. The lawyer has no standing. The students are not the problem here, even if there are two or three who may feel this way, it is not the general feeling of the Muslim students at the university.
Since it is not the feeling of the Muslim population at the university, the bolded state is unnecessary.
There is no error in my comment. This is not a Muslim vs Catholic issue. This is a lawyer who has a very strange way of testing the law. From the little that I know about him, he finds one or two people to put a name on his cases and then goes forward with law suits. It’s very strange.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A
atheistgirl
Guest
Sorry and apologies in advance: Off topic/
Possibly the funniest think Ive ever read on this forum
Im going to use that today at some point, I just know I am
C
Chaplain777
Guest
Which amounted to an off-hand inuendo. What was your concern? You neglected to state that. You also insinuated that my comment was inflamatory or that it “concerned you”. Drive-by shots are not appreciated especially when it is obvious you have no idea what my statement meant.The bold is mine
Up to that point, we can agree. The lawyer has no standing. The students are not the problem here, even if there are two or three who may feel this way, it is not the general feeling of the Muslim students at the university.
Since it is not the feeling of the Muslim population at the university, the bolded state is unnecessary.
In your opinion.
There is no error in my comment. This is not a Muslim vs Catholic issue.
**The point, which you missed, is not that your comment in and of itself had any erros in it, but the intent from which it came. You are insinuating that I am trying to stoke the flame of opposition between Catholics adn Muslims. YOu couldn’t be more wrong, hence error in your comment. **
This is a lawyer who has a very strange way of testing the law. From the little that I know about him, he finds one or two people to put a name on his cases and then goes forward with law suits. It’s very strange.
Agreed!
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Much like JReducation who impose thier OWN ideas on what someone else is saying. While I understand it is difficult to discern tone via forums, one should at the very least give the benefit of doubt and ask for clarification IF it is so important to you or JReducation.
- Status