Do Democrats Know How Radical Bernie Sanders' 'Medicare For All' Plan Is?

[Ridgerunner]

We have a new hospital in our area that is roughly 70% medicaid or medicare (rural Kentucky). And they still felt comfortable building a $1million reflecting pool purely for aesthetics.

They built it knowing that the overwhelming majority of the customer base would be publicly funded.

The notion of “those poor hospitals and doctors can’t make it on public insurance!” is a total absurdity.

Local differences can mean a lot. Our two big complexes here in S.W. Mo Ozarks are doing exceedingly well. But it’s a low cost part of the country. Medicaid is not particularly welcomed by the providers, but Medicare sure is.

 

[ProVobis]

What is the objection to making Medicare optional?

That’s what I say. If an employer offers a better health care package, go for it.

 

[upant]

The number of personal bankruptcies has dropped drastically since ACA.

http://time.com/money/4765443/obamacare-bankruptcy-decline/

why is the question? tougher laws? aca? what was the rise in prior years? the graph seems selective in the choice of years shown. pushing an agenda.

The truth is that it’s not that easy to determine how many bankruptcies are caused by medical debt.

 

[upant]

Everything else is. How would you limit health care consumption? Deny treatment to the elderly and disabled? That’s how the VA does it.

seems to be the canadian way at least for the elderly. (snowbirds talk which could and could not be true.) ymmv

 

[Suudy]

As it currently stands with your objections duly noted, outcomes as currently measured don’t even put the US in the top 20 in most categories.

Such as? Certainly not cancer survival rates. Perhaps you have a list you’d like to share?

These are facts that don’t support your side of the debate. And as well all know, when the facts don’t support you, you must either change your views or deny/disparage the facts.

Which facts? That cancer survival rates in the US are much higher than Europe?

I see the route you and others have chosen, unfortunately.

What route is that? Do you know what my position is?

 

[niceatheist]

Well, if we have a right to healthcare, does that mean that the government can draft or impress people into a medical service corps and force them to be doctors?

Because that’s totally what happens elsewhere in the developed world.

 

[Bataar]

MonteRCMS:

Well, if we have a right to healthcare, does that mean that the government can draft or impress people into a medical service corps and force them to be doctors?

Because that’s totally what happens elsewhere in the developed world.

Is it considered a right in other countries? If someone is on a waiting list for a treatment and the condition passes a point where treatment is no longer viable, can they sue for a civil rights violation?

 

[ucfengr]

Exactly, people who say healthcare is a right don’t actually believe it, they just think they should be the ones deciding who gets what. If you’re too old or too fat or smoke, or if you’re disabled, or heck, maybe if you take the Bible a bit too seriously on all that gay stuff, you’re not getting excrement. It’s about control.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Exactly, people who say healthcare is a right don’t actually believe it…

Do you apply that judgement to Pope Francis too?

 

[JimG]

In the United States there is a small but growing contingent of physician practices who are taking the strictly fee for service route, sometimes called direct primary care. They either operate fee for service practices and take no insurance whatever including Medicare, or they charge a monthly retainer fee for basically unlimited service. Their monthly retainer fees are smaller than insurance premiums. When we debate whether or not healthcare is a right, we are essentially debating whether we have a right to other people’s services.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Is that another appeal to authority I see?

Oh, and while you’re at it…look up Catholic teachings on marriage and abortion and get back to us on the appropriate thread.

I’d sure hate to think there’s hypocrisy ON TOP of a logical fallacy.

Uff-da!

 

[graciew]

and all these other countries where health care is “free” pay tens of thousands of dollars to come to the US for treatment?

It isn t like that really in all cases.
It is the other way round sometimes. We go back home for treatment
Perhaps you do not understand how it works elsewhere and the quality of treatment and doctors but it is ok. You do not really have to…
Just so that you consider the possibility that there is room for improvement almost everywhere if there is a will.

 

[SuperLuigi]

It isn t like that really in all cases.

It is the other way round sometimes.

My point is if it’s as simple as someone walking in and getting something for free with no paperwork, why on earth would they pay all the money and deal with international customs for something that is free? It’s like a Canadian in Montreal going to Concord, NH for free samples at Tim Horton’s. It makes no sense if it’s so accessible and great.

Perhaps you do not understand how it works elsewhere and the quality of treatment and doctors but it is ok. You do not really have to…

Quality of treatment isn’t always the issue–it’s actually GETTING the treatment in the first place.

Justo so that you consider the possibility that there is room for improvement almost everywhere if there is a will.

That’s the problem. There’s a will when it comes to the government running things for that to happen. Will-power and intentions aren’t good enough for results.

If you are an American, look at like this: If you love the VA clinic, then you’ll love universal health care. Doesn’t matter what the Pope, the bishops, your politicians or your friends on Facebook say. That’s what you’ll get in the end. Corruption, people dying in waiting rooms, false promises and excuses while your loved ones suffer.

 

[graciew]

I agree with you in all points.

There is much room for improvement . Everywhere.
But for some reason,budget is readily available for different areas,but when it comes to health…it can wait.
It is very expensive and unavailable for many there. I noticed how much over the counter there is replacing visits to doctors , compared to other places…
There are all sort of resources there to make it work. Your way,for the best interest of your loved ones,as you say.
I would not resign our medicine here for anything,and also,there is a lot of room for improvement.
But if medicine available for all works elsewhere even with difficulties…you could find a way no doubt even better available for all.

 

[Vonsalza]

If you are an American, look at like this: If you love the VA clinic, then you’ll love universal health care. Doesn’t matter what the Pope, the bishops, your politicians or your friends on Facebook say. That’s what you’ll get in the end. Corruption, people dying in waiting rooms, false promises and excuses while your loved ones suffer.

There is an enormous problem here.

For whatever reason, a lot of folks seem to think that a single-payer, Medicare style system is the same as state-owned healthcare.

This is not true. Objectively, factually; this is not true.

Under a Medicare-style system, the doctors and the hospitals work for the same ole people they worked for before. Their employer does not change. At all… If they’re self employed, they stay self employed.

What changes is who they bill for insurance. Currently, they bill private insurance companies like Cigna, Humana, Blue Cross and a veritable ocean of others. But under a single payer system, they will bill the government. Doctors and hospitals that accept Medicaid and Medicare already do this in providing care for a very large portion of Americans (1 in 5 on Medicaid, 1 in 6 on Medicare). This happens today. Right now. As we’re typing and reading this. Defense contractors and a myriad of others are private institutions that have often have been billing the government for goods and services for decades…

This is not government-owned healthcare. And blind arguments that it must eventually slide toward government-owned healthcare are, by rule, fallacious “slippery-slopes” that get philosophy papers "F"s in college.
There are several nations that use the scheme roughly given as “Medicare for all” and have used it for decades.

Perhaps it’s a pointless fight. Many have “made up their mind” on the issue and any type of collectivization is tantamount to Stalin and the Politburo (except for the exceptions they’ve rationalized to themselves like roads and armies). But luckily for my side, those folks are dying off faster than they can replace themselves with new ideologues to carry on their misconceptions. Eventually, we will win. And praise God for it.

 

[ProVobis]

I guess I don’t take the matter of bankruptcies as lightly as you do. Even in one case, whether it’s from medical procedures or other causes or both, there are people who don’t get paid for their work or hospitals which might have to close or people who lost their investments. Not to mention the one who files for the bk which might hurt his employment chances or be turned down for future loans. If it happens during a downturn in the economy, it only exacerbates the problem. Certainly it is easy to see that if an emergency arises, a person who can sign onto a plan which reduces his medical liability will reduce the risk of his filing for bankruptcy. Is it necessary to do cause/effect studies to see this?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I guess I don’t take the matter of bankruptcies as lightly as you do. Even in one case, whether it’s from medical procedures or other causes or both, there are people who don’t get paid for their work or hospitals which might have to close or people who lost their investments. Not to mention the one who files for the bk which might hurt his employment chances or be turned down for future loans. If it happens during a downturn in the economy, it only exacerbates the problem. Certainly it is easy to see that if an emergency arises, a person who can sign onto a plan which reduces his medical liability will reduce the risk of his filing for bankruptcy. Is it necessary to do cause/effect studies to see this?

I don’t take bankruptcy lightly at all. I was twice within inches of it myself.

The Bankruptcy Code was created in order to give “second chances” to people who, without criminal intent, found themselves hopelessly unable to pay their bills, regardless of their nature. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing.

What is the compelling reason to prefer a medical debtor over one who simply lost his job and was unable to pay his debts contracted in good faith for life’s other necessities and in the expectation that he would continue to be employed?

 

[ProVobis]

As I stated, either way there are people who don’t get paid for their services, etc. You’re looking at things from the patient’s or employee point of view only.

Works the same way for corporations who decide to file bk as well. Look at ToysRUs who just filed.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As I stated, either way there are people who don’t get paid for their services, etc. You’re looking at things from the patient’s or employee point of view only.

Works the same way for corporations who decide to file bk as well. Look at ToysRUs who just filed.

Much of life is the struggle to get paid for what one does. You think you have a good business model like Toys R Us, and it works and everybody’s happy, then along comes some new development like Amazon that cuts your legs out from under you. Your financiers get leery of you, you don’t have time to redirect your efforts, and the next thing you know, a Chapter 11 is your only hope of survival at all. It’s better for the unpaid folks by far than a Chapter 7.

I can look at my “aged accounts receivable” and it’s truly a marvel how much of that a business accumulates over the years. Sue them? When the cost of collection exceeds the likely receipts, you won’t do it. And a good part of the time, the debtor is “judgment proof” anyway.

There’s plenty of “not getting paid” in this economy. Probably always was, and in every economy. The biblical Jews institutionalized it by wiping out debts every seven years.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Sanders is a socialist who would put our entire nation under a dictatorship wherein all means of production and distribution would be run by the government. Under Sanders, the Constitution would be scrapped. Our medical system worked quite well under an almost free enterprise system for over 200 years. Even indigents could get treatment for free before medicaid and medicare. Yes, the more affluent could afford good medical care easier than the less affluent. The also can afford better houses, better cars, better food, and better educations for their children. How about an affordable automobile system? Everyone gets a Rolls Royce that is subsidized by the government. There is a reason why affluent Canadians come to the US for medical treatment and procedures. Viva la revolucion.