Do Eastern Catholics and Western Catholics have the same beliefs?

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Scholasticism is fine and it was studied assiduously in the Orthodox world.

The “problem” with Scholasticism that Eastern Christians have is not WITH Scholasticism but when the Scholastic expression of Christian faith is seen to be a kind of overarching one that the East needs to accept in order to be in “good standing” with the West.

That, of course, is nonsense.

Alex

Well said, Alexander Roman. My experience of my Catholic faith - my experience even as a Latin Catholic - does not include attempts to rationalize away or exhaustively explain the inexhaustible mysteries of God.

Philosophy, wonder, and paradox not only can coexist, but ought to.

And of course it would be highly unacceptable to expect the East to express divine mysteries in western/Latin terms.

 

[sidbrown]

And of course it would be highly unacceptable to expect the East to express divine mysteries in western/Latin terms.

This is why every effort should be made for intercommunion between the two Churches. In that way, the west would have the benefit of feeling good about the Eastern Orthodox approach to religious thought and life in general.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

This is why every effort should be made for intercommunion between the two Churches. In that way, the west would have the benefit of feeling good about the Eastern Orthodox approach to religious thought and life in general.

I agree. I think the hierarchy of the Catholic Church does, too, judging from the fact that according to the selection from canon law in the missals of my (Latin) parish, the Catholic Church already has no objection to members of the eastern Orthodox Church receiving communion in a Catholic church.

 

[MontChevalier]

Personally, in my belief, I believe the Filioque is not heretical.

I take it under this verse:

1 John 2: 22

“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”

Now, I’m not saying this to cause controversy, or to sew anger among the masses. It’s my thought on it. Perhaps the next guy who leaves a message may have a differing opinion, but mine is this.

I also do not believe that just cause the Eastern Catholics may leave the filioque out, they are heretics, on the contrary! They are my brothers for eternity.

 

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[Hesychios]

…the Catholic Church already has no objection to members of the eastern Orthodox Church receiving communion in a Catholic church.

I find it odd that an Orthodox who does not believe in purgatory, indulgences, papal universal jurisdiction or papal Infallibility is welcome to receive communion in the RC church, while a Roman Catholic who does not believe those things is excommunicated from the same church.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I find it odd that an Orthodox who does not believe in purgatory, indulgences, papal universal jurisdiction or papal Infallibility is welcome to receive communion in the RC church, while a Roman Catholic who does not believe those things is excommunicated from the same church.

The Catholic hierarchy does not consider the Orthodox position on these matters contradictory to the doctrines themselves - just to the western/Latin expressions and traditions on them (the exception - to some degree only - is universal papal jurisdiction, though properly and collegially understood even this difficulty begins to dissipate irrevocably).

The Catholic Church has never been and never will be under the impression that any one particular explanation or expression of revealed truths and sacred mysteries is exhaustive, including and especially the western/Latin one.

For instance, you can claim that you reject “purgatory.” Okay, but when a Catholic discovers that you pray for the dead, he or she no longer perceives any contradiction between our theologies - differences? Sure. Of course! But incompatibility in either direction? No.

Ultimately, Hesychios, this disagreement constitutes perhaps the only substantive one between our churches: whether our traditions, structures, theology, and ecclesiology are even incompatible at all.

As I’m sure you know by now, the Catholic position - regardless of the Orthodox one - is that these things are not incompatible. After reading what Marduk, a member of the Coptic Catholic Church, has said about many things on this forum (including the filioque in this very thread), I am more convinced than ever of the compatibility between western expressions of theological and ecclesiological matters and eastern - even eastern Orthodox - ones.

At the same time, I respectfully acknowledge without reservation that this opinion itself constitutes a disagreement with your position.

But the bottom line is this: because the Catholic Church considers your church to be apostolic and to have always successfully retained apostolic succession, to possess a valid hierarchy and even ecclesiology and to be a legitimate church in the full sense of the word (unlike the Protestant communities), to have retained the Sacraments and authentic Christian truth… in short, to justify its label of “Orthodox Christianity”…

Because of that, yes, the Catholic Church would have no problem with an Orthodox believer receiving Holy Communion at any Mass or Liturgy. I respectfully acknowledge, however, the consistency and integrity of the Orthodox position on the matter.

 

[Hesychios]

The Catholic hierarchy does not consider the Orthodox position on these matters contradictory to the doctrines themselves …

I don’t see why.The Orthodox reject them out of hand, that’s a conscious and willful rejection of the dogmas.

Some of these are consciously renounced when Catholics become Orthodox. No renunciation, no acceptance into the church. That’s policy.

Do you have link or something to explain this from the perspective of the Vatican? I am most curious to see their justification.

 

[sidbrown]

I find it odd that an Orthodox who does not believe in purgatory, indulgences, papal universal jurisdiction or papal Infallibility is welcome to receive communion in the RC church, while a Roman Catholic who does not believe those things is excommunicated from the same church.

Wait a minute. I thought you were in favor of intercommunion and each Church remaining just as it is now?

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Michael,

I find it odd that an Orthodox who does not believe in purgatory, indulgences, papal universal jurisdiction or papal Infallibility is welcome to receive communion in the RC church, while a Roman Catholic who does not believe those things is excommunicated from the same church.

Perhaps you misunderstand. That the Catholic church permits Orthodox to receive communion in the Catholic Church (which is reciprocated by other Orthodox Churches, btw, both Eastern and Oriental) is a PASTORAL PROVISION. It is permitted only in EXTENUATING circumstances.

A person excommunicated from the Catholic Church for the reasons you give, joining an Apostolic Church, would have access to that same pastoral provision. He is not a formal member of the Catholic Church, and he cannot normatively receive communion in the Catholic Church ---- but in EXTENUATING circumstances, he can avail himself of the pastoral provision, just like any other Orthodox Christian.

I hope that settles your conundrum.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Hesychios]

Dear brother Michael,

Perhaps you misunderstand. That the Catholic church permits Orthodox to receive communion in the Catholic Church (which is reciprocated by other Orthodox Churches, btw, both Eastern and Oriental) is a PASTORAL PROVISION. It is permitted only in EXTENUATING circumstances.

A person excommunicated from the Catholic Church for the reasons you give, joining an Apostolic Church, would have access to that same pastoral provision. He is not a formal member of the Catholic Church, and he cannot normatively receive communion in the Catholic Church ---- but in EXTENUATING circumstances, he can avail himself of the pastoral provision, just like any other Orthodox Christian.

I hope that settles your conundrum.

Blessings,
Marduk

I don’t have a conundrum.

I think perhaps you misunderstand.

The Roman Catholic church allows Orthodox to receive, one condition only.

That condition is provided they have the permission of their own bishops. If you want confirmation of that, ask Fone Bone 2001 above, or check your Sunday Missalette.

Clearly this is not the extenuating circumstance you are referring to.

 

[Hesychios]

Wait a minute. I thought you were in favor of intercommunion and each Church remaining just as it is now?

The question is, are you in favor of it?

My proposal was for arguments sake.

So then, what do you think, should we let the Anglicans, non-Chalcedonians, Orthodox and Roman Catholics all share communion unconditionally?

 

[mardukm]

I don’t have a conundrum.

Did you not express a conundrum in your post #105? I guess a question I would ask you is, what makes you think that those who joined other Apostolic Churches from the Catholic Church are not able to avail themselves of this pastoral provision?

I think perhaps you misunderstand.

The Roman Catholic church allows Orthodox to receive, one condition only.

That condition is provided they have the permission of their own bishops. If you want confirmation of that, ask Fone Bone 2001 above, or check your Sunday Missalette.

Clearly this is not the extenuating circumstance you are referring to.

That’s a very loaded condition. The condition of “permission of their own bishops” settles the matter. Unless you can think of an instance wherein a non-Catholic bishop from an Apostolic Church would permit a member of his Church to NORMATIVELY receive communion in a Catholic Church sans consideration of an extenuating circumstance, then and only then would your supposition be correct. Otherwise, your interpretation is problematic

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[sidbrown]

The question is, are you in favor of it?

My proposal was for arguments sake.

So then, what do you think, should we let the Anglicans, non-Chalcedonians, Orthodox and Roman Catholics all share communion unconditionally?

Yes, i would be for non-Chalcedonians, E. Orthodox and Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics to share communion as the Roman Catholic Church allows now.
I am not sure about Anglicans. I would go with your recommendation on Anglicans as you probably know more about their situation than I do.
Do you consider yourself to be consistent here? Because the RCC already allows E.O to receive Holy Communion in the RCC, but then you have raised objections?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Due to the Dutch Touch and Polish Pat with PNCC many decades ago, apostolic succession was reinfused into Anglicanism according to many. You might want to read up on it and you might consider putting them on your list after all! I was an Anglican for many years, tempted to go back to being one often times, and I believe they have valid succession. I know, however, that I’m in a minority here in feeling that way!

Yes, i would be for non-Chalcedonians, E. Orthodox and Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics to share communion as the Roman Catholic Church allows now.
I am not sure about Anglicans. I would go with your recommendation on Anglicans as you probably know more about their situation than I do.
Do you consider yourself to be consistent here? Because the RCC already allows E.O to receive Holy Communion in the RCC, but then you have raised objections?

 

[PodunkMommy]

I’m starting to have trouble following this so what I say may not even apply to what this current thread.

I was told that as a Roman Catholic, if there is not a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic Church by me, I can receive Communion from an Orthodox Church and participate in Divine Liturgy there; since they have apostolic succession and believe the same about the Eucharist. However, I was also told, that they may not feel the same way about the situation as the Roman Church does.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m starting to have trouble following this so what I say may not even apply to what this current thread.

I was told that as a Roman Catholic, if there is not a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic Church by me, I can receive Communion from an Orthodox Church and participate in Divine Liturgy there; since they have apostolic succession and believe the same about the Eucharist. However, I was also told, that they may not feel the same way about the situation as the Roman Church does.

Well, one does not fulfill one’s “Sunday obligation” in a Church other than a Catholic Church. Thats the Canon Law. If there is no Catholic churches within reasonable distance, then the obligation is dispensed, as how it is defined in the RC Church. Although the Church also would advice in attending a Liturgy of the Word in another church not in communion with Rome. Its advice for spiritual advantage, but not required.

 

[sidbrown]

I’m starting to have trouble following this so what I say may not even apply to what this current thread.

I was told that as a Roman Catholic, if there is not a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic Church by me, I can receive Communion from an Orthodox Church and participate in Divine Liturgy there; since they have apostolic succession and believe the same about the Eucharist. However, I was also told, that they may not feel the same way about the situation as the Roman Church does.

Yes, that’s about right, I think.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve never heard Orthodox Christians (those NOT connected to Rome) use the term “Sunday obligation.” I wonder, is there one in Eastern Orthodoxy? If an Orthodox misses Mass without a solid reason, is it a mortal sin? I have no idea. Just curious.

Well, one does not fulfill one’s “Sunday obligation” in a Church other than a Catholic Church. Thats the Canon Law. If there is no Catholic churches within reasonable distance, then the obligation is dispensed, as how it is defined in the RC Church. Although the Church also would advice in attending a Liturgy of the Word in another church not in communion with Rome. Its advice for spiritual advantage, but not required.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, i would be for non-Chalcedonians, E. Orthodox and Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics to share communion as the Roman Catholic Church allows now.

Actually, for my part I would not.

Do you consider yourself to be consistent here? Because the RCC already allows E.O to receive Holy Communion in the RCC, but then you have raised objections?

Roman Catholics do not have an automatic right to receive in an Orthodox church.

To do so they would have to qualify in the same way any Orthodox Christian would.

No difference.