Does the ELCA now teach that the grape juice also is the blood of Christ at the Words of institution?
Jon
- Status
Jon
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
JonNC, thank you for this interesting question. I had to go back and do some research. I will first give you the official answer from the Use of the Means of Grace, 1997:
Application 44C: For pressing reasons of health, individuals may com-
mune under one element . In certain circumstances, congregations migh t
decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or non-alcoholic win e
or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are
delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the peopl e
of each local assembly. (pg. 46)
My other answer comes from Dr. Luther in a letter to Zwingli on the Real Presence. In paraphrase, Luther said that Christ is present everywhere, even in my cabbage soup.
Application 44C: For pressing reasons of health, individuals may com-
mune under one element . In certain circumstances, congregations migh t
decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or non-alcoholic win e
or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are
delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the peopl e
of each local assembly. (pg. 46)
My other answer comes from Dr. Luther in a letter to Zwingli on the Real Presence. In paraphrase, Luther said that Christ is present everywhere, even in my cabbage soup.
A
andrewstx
Guest
Then why go to the trouble of celebrating the Holy Communion at all?
Why not just pass out tiny cups of cabbage soup after services?
This has got to be the most non-Lutheran thing I have read, more like UUs with their “flower communion”.
Just does not compute for me at all.
My understanding is that Luther was refuting Zwingli’s claim that Christ was in Heaven and could not be present in the Eucharist other than spiritually.
With due respect to Oldtimer, I find it a step away from orthodox Lutheranism to use grape juice. I am very uncomfortable with “non-alcoholic wine”. While lutherans have an aversion generally to concommitance (mainly because it was used as a reason to withhold the cup the laity), I would never receive either as a substitute for wine, and would receive the host only if necessary. In fact, if a parish was using grape juice only, I would not receive at all.
Jon
Hey Oldtimer,
Looking at the date, I was wondering if part of the reason for this accomodation had to do with the then-pending altar and pulpit fellowship agreements with either the UCC, the Moravians, or the Presbyterians.
Jon
N
Nabooru
Guest
I think actually most Protestant denominations, at least the old-fashioned mainline ones, use wine. Lutherans, Presbyterians (and other Reformed), Anglicans, and some Methodists (John Wesley was a real teetotaler, but said wine was acceptable for sacramental use). Now that doesn’t mean that the greatest gross number of individual Protestants use wine. The Baptists, the rest of the Methodists, and Pentecostals use grape juice. As for the Amish and such, I have no idea.
M
martininthefiel
Guest
Flannery I’Connor once said, “Scratch an Episcopalian, and you never quite know what you’ll find.”
One of the official names TEC uses is “The Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States”. Until relatively recently, most Episcopal parishes were Morning Prayer at the principle Sunday service with Communion once or twice a month.
The “Catholic Revival Movement” began in the 1840’s in England, and somewhat later in the States. The pendulum has swung between the high and low Church parties in roughly 20-year cycles. Broad Church, with Eucharist every Sunday currently predominates, but I sense that the pendulum is currently swinging back toward the more Protestant side, due in part to the Concordat with ELCA.
The word ‘catholic’ with a lower-case ‘c’ is generally taken as a synonym for 'universal’s. However, capitalization practices in English have changed over time, so I wouldn’tread too much into how the Creed was rendered in 1928.
Anglican began as an expression of English nationalism, rather than a doctrinal dispute, but the reform movements on the Continent had influence on how Anglicanism developed. In my mind it is somewhere between Catholic and Protestant, but in my experience, most Episcopalians see themselves as protestants.
One of the official names TEC uses is “The Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States”. Until relatively recently, most Episcopal parishes were Morning Prayer at the principle Sunday service with Communion once or twice a month.
The “Catholic Revival Movement” began in the 1840’s in England, and somewhat later in the States. The pendulum has swung between the high and low Church parties in roughly 20-year cycles. Broad Church, with Eucharist every Sunday currently predominates, but I sense that the pendulum is currently swinging back toward the more Protestant side, due in part to the Concordat with ELCA.
The word ‘catholic’ with a lower-case ‘c’ is generally taken as a synonym for 'universal’s. However, capitalization practices in English have changed over time, so I wouldn’tread too much into how the Creed was rendered in 1928.
Anglican began as an expression of English nationalism, rather than a doctrinal dispute, but the reform movements on the Continent had influence on how Anglicanism developed. In my mind it is somewhere between Catholic and Protestant, but in my experience, most Episcopalians see themselves as protestants.
G
GKC
Guest
I don’t, but I note it. For all that, you certainly find Anglicans who don’t mean “universal” when they say “Catholic”.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
M
martininthefiel
Guest
BTW, The Catholic Church uses ‘catholic’ that way as well. as well. And all Baptised Christians are regarded as members of the one Holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church. The question is Papacy.
A lot of posters on this forum are take a much harder line than the pope, himself.
A lot of posters on this forum are take a much harder line than the pope, himself.
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
I think the moderator may want me to start a new thread on the topic of Lutheran views on the Eucharist. But to answer JonNC first. A friend had serious heart surgery some years ago. He and I were EMT’s together for years, so when he developed weakness and chest pains, he called me. Two days later, he was scheduled for cardiac surgery again. The hospital is just three blocks from the church, so my wife and I took communion to him after the early service. We discussed the matter with his surgeon, who said that he could have no solids on his stomach. We gave him the wine, to his great surprise, since he is Baptist. He went into surgery with a smile on his face and has made a good recovery. As ELCA Lutherans, we believe that God comes to us in the sacraments. From where I stood, my friend was in need of knowing God was with him and communion was the best way to do it.
Now Andrewstx, if that is the most un-Lutheran thing you ever heard, you need to hang around Lutherans more often. We can do much worse. One of the problems of the dispute between Luther and Zwingli was that it was presented as an either/or matter. You either believed that Christ was truly present in the elements, or that it was only a commemoration. The modern thinking is that it is both and more. Further, it is humanly impossible to be worthy of receiving the body and blood of Christ, so it is a matter of grace that we do. This is why the document I cited was called The Use of the Means of Grace.
Now Andrewstx, if that is the most un-Lutheran thing you ever heard, you need to hang around Lutherans more often. We can do much worse. One of the problems of the dispute between Luther and Zwingli was that it was presented as an either/or matter. You either believed that Christ was truly present in the elements, or that it was only a commemoration. The modern thinking is that it is both and more. Further, it is humanly impossible to be worthy of receiving the body and blood of Christ, so it is a matter of grace that we do. This is why the document I cited was called The Use of the Means of Grace.
I think what you did, under the circumstances, was wonderful. My real concern, my friend, is the use of grape juice, which I find contrary to Christ’s testament. As Lutherans, you and I probably share the concern about the pre-Vatican II practice within the Catholic Church of withholding the chalice from the laity as a regular practice.
Well said. It is also why we always should have confession/Absolution as part of the service prior to the sacrament.
Jon
I
Izdaari
Guest
I also post on an Anglican/Episcopal forum, and we recently had a thread on the topic of “Do you think of yourself as more Catholic or more Protestant?” It’s a pretty long thread, like some of the ones here. I don’t have an exact count, since it’s not a poll thread, but: Many said “neither Catholic nor Protestant, but Anglican” and many said “more Catholic”. There were some who said “more Protestant” but definitely a minority.
Personally, I agree with your assessment that it’s neither Catholic nor Protestant but somewhere in between. We are catholic (“universal”) and apostolic, but not part of the Vatican’s hierarchy, and not in agreement with some of the doctrine.
I’m in an “emergent” Anglo-Catholic parish with Benedictine influence.
I
Izdaari
Guest
I know. And I applaud the Catholic Church for that!
We just need to get more of the Catholic members on board with it.
A
andrewstx
Guest
This is a little complicated, to say the least. As a teenager I attended classes in an ALC church, I was trying to escape the real protestant fundamentalism of my family “church of Christ”. They pulled me out of the classes and forced me into being dunked in their denomination.
After graduation when I had some say I became an Episcopalian to preserve some family unity since the Episcopal church is still protestant in some ways. But that was a failure, I was disowned and told I was hell-bound.
Since I had already been disowned by my family, I went all the way and became a latin Catholic. I even spent time in a Franciscan congregation (order).
I have had changing feelings about the Lutherans, used to prefer ELCA but now I prefer LCMS, they are much more orthodox.
But I am staying where I am now.
I hope the “they” refers to the church of Christ, and not the ALC!I would say you were bound for hell in the Episcopal Church too.
Just kidding!! When we lived in TX, my daughter went to an Episcopal school, and we often attending there, as we were ELCA and the Call to Common Mission had been approved.I am sure you are blessed where you are, in word and sacrament.
Jon
A
andrewstx
Guest
Yes I certainly meant the “church of Christ” and not the ALC, I cant imagine any ALC baptising anyone under duress as happened to me.
I would say you were bound for hell in the Episcopal Church too.
I am sure you are blessed where you are, in word and sacrament.
Jon
I accepted the CofC dunking knowing I had to be baptised somewhere by someone, and my parents laid down the law, that the whole extended family had to go to the same church, and that was CofC.
Had I already been baptised validly as a child and not by dunking I would have never let them re-baptise me.
If you lived in texas you will be aware practically the whole state is cofc or baptist.
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
JonNc, thank you for your kind words. It is implicit in the Use of the Means of Grace that grape juice is an exceptional act only to be used for reasons of health. Grape juice would have been a very unnatural product in first-century Palestine. Within hours, the yeast present on the skins of the grape would have had the juice rolling due to fermentation. Also, the use of only one of the elements is considered an exceptional thing. We end up in concord. (Grape humor!)
Andrewstx, I give thanks to God that you persevered and found a church home, despite your early treatment at the hands of believers. What you went through has turned many away from church and from religion.
Andrewstx, I give thanks to God that you persevered and found a church home, despite your early treatment at the hands of believers. What you went through has turned many away from church and from religion.
S
SteveLy
Guest
:doh2:I know of one Episcopal congregation that uses grape juice–they also don’t use the Nicene Creed
S
SteveLy
Guest
Sorry for my ignorance. Can someone tell me what an ALC church is? Thanks.
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
all of the times i attended episcopalian/anglican churches when i was a member of both faiths, real wine was present. i was shocked when i went with a friend to a protestant church and grape juice was used.
- Status