Do Evangelicals Believe in Any Sacraments?

[Tomyris]

Do they just prefer a different terminology to further separate themselves from the Church’s historic understanding?

This made me cry and laugh. Cry, because of the inherent suspicion. Laugh, because of the idea that Protestants spend all their time sitting around trying to think up new ways to further separate themselves from the Church’s historic understanding.

There is a fundamental difference between an ordinance and a sacrament. The Reformed believe the sacraments - and we use such a Catholic word, gasp - confer additional grace to the saved, not saving faith to the unsaved. I think ‘ordinance’ is used more by those who are from a different system, although I think Reformed people may also use the term. For me it is something the Lord ordained for all his people, as opposed to, say, marriage, which state is not entered by all.

 

[Tomyris]

House already answered well.

I’d just add that the Sacraments are the Means of Grace to Lutherans, just as they are to Catholics. Without minimizing the small chasm that exists between Lutherans and Catholics on some theology regarding the sacraments, to many Evangelicals and ND’s, Lutherans and Catholics may as well be identical - as far as they’re concerned, we’re both teaching the same heresy.

AFAIK, we don’t ever refer to the Lutherans as heretics. That puts us in the amusing position of blasting Catholics for horrible abominations, idolatries and all sorts of evils, but not batting an eye when Lutherans do the exact same thing.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It first starts at Baptism where one is encouraged to confess their previous sins immediately prior to their Baptism to the entire Church.

After that, every now and then after being told how sinful we are and being convicted of our failures, we are encouraged to go to the front where the Elders can pray for you. It gives you the opportunity to confess your struggles.

Biggest of all are the small groups run by the Church. Like we say, “we’re not one big Church, we’re also hundreds of little ones.” These groups are where we sign confidentiality agreements with those who can hold us accountable. They try to get a good mix of older couples, younger couples, singles, etc. That’s where we confess the most to be healed.

I get the accountability group thing but secular programs do it to. It is valuable but a far cry from the catholic sacrament.

Do you mean to tell me your church requires people to publicly disclose all their sins before they get baptized?

I understand people give a testimony, but that is far different than saying;

“I’ve lusted countless times, I slept with so and so’s wife,” etc…

 

[dronald]

I get the accountability group thing but secular programs do it to. It is valuable but a far cry from the catholic sacrament.

Not a far cry; rather a different way of practicing, and it’s wonderful.

I would say that confessing to a Priest isn’t quite as grand, but I have no right to judge. I’m sure there’s much good in your way.

Do you mean to tell me your church requires people to publicly disclose all their sins before they get baptized?

I understand people give a testimony, but that is far different than saying;

“I’ve lusted countless times, I slept with so and so’s wife,” etc…

I said encouraged. They can go into specifics if they would like, but the most important thing is to give a testimony of how ones life has changed thanks to Christ.

 

[ltwin]

There is a fundamental difference between an ordinance and a sacrament. The Reformed believe the sacraments - and we use such a Catholic word, gasp - confer additional grace to the saved, not saving faith to the unsaved. I think ‘ordinance’ is used more by those who are from a different system, although I think Reformed people may also use the term. For me it is something the Lord ordained for all his people, as opposed to, say, marriage, which state is not entered by all.

In my opinion, it is possible to speak of both sacrament and ordinance as long as sacrament is not used to refer to a converting sacrament effective ex opere operato. If sacrament simply refers to a means of grace for believers or as an “outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace,” then I think there is nothing wrong with describing baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Not a far cry; rather a different way of practicing, and it’s wonderful.

I would say that confessing to a Priest isn’t quite as grand, but I have no right to judge. I’m sure there’s much good in your way.

I said encouraged. They can go into specifics if they would like, but the most important thing is to give a testimony of how ones life has changed thanks to Christ.

Of course it’s neither a matter of being “grand” nor of just being “different ways,” is it? The Catholic priest forgives sins in confession. The penitent isn’t “giving testimony,” he is confessing, seeking (and receiving) forgiveness from God through God’s chosen instrument, on God’s terms. The same is true of all the Sacraments in the Church. They are less like our attempts to “climb up” to God and more like His chosen way of “climbing down” to us. His life is communicated via the Sacraments b/c it is His will that it be so. If the Incarnation shows us anything it’s that God isn’t a big fan of working “invisibly” or of using matter merely as a “symbol.” Christ’s material flesh isn’t symbolic of His love for humanity. It is the instrument through which we are reconciled to God.

But really that is all beside my primary question, which has more to do with the difference not between the historic Catholic understanding of the Sacraments and the modern Protestant understanding, but has more to do with the difference (if any) between “mainline Protestant” sacramental theology and “Evangelical / non-denom. / baptist / Pentecostal” understanding of the same.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Not a far cry; rather a different way of practicing, and it’s wonderful.

I would say that confessing to a Priest isn’t quite as grand, but I have no right to judge. I’m sure there’s much good in your way.

I said encouraged. They can go into specifics if they would like, but the most important thing is to give a testimony of how ones life has changed thanks to Christ.

Did James 5 say, “therefore I recommend you confess your sins to one another if you want to.”

When Jesus told the apostles to retain unrepentant sins and forgive repentant ones in John 20 was that also just “if people wanted to do that sort of thing”

Of course there are plenty of accountability groups and such in Catholic circles too, but the sacrament of reconciliation is extremely different and in my experience far more powerful.

 

[ltwin]

Of course it’s neither a matter of being “grand” nor of just being “different ways,” is it? The Catholic priest forgives sins in confession. The penitent isn’t “giving testimony,” he is confessing, seeking (and receiving) forgiveness from God through God’s chosen instrument, on God’s terms. The same is true of all the Sacraments in the Church. They are less like our attempts to “climb up” to God and more like His chosen way of “climbing down” to us. His life is communicated via the Sacraments b/c it is His will that it be so. If the Incarnation shows us anything it’s that God isn’t a big fan of working “invisibly” or of using matter merely as a “symbol.” Christ’s material flesh isn’t symbolic of His love for humanity. It is the instrument through which we are reconciled to God.

Evangelicals do not confess sins in order to receive absolution from another person acting in God’s name. We confess sins one to another as an expression of the communion of the saints. We confess our sins to one another so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can pray for us, and through their intercession healing, forgiveness, repentance, and victory can come.

To receive forgiveness, we go directly to God in prayer.

But really that is all beside my primary question, which has more to do with the difference not between the historic Catholic understanding of the Sacraments and the modern Protestant understanding, but has more to do with the difference (if any) between “mainline Protestant” sacramental theology and “Evangelical / non-denom. / baptist / Pentecostal” understanding of the same.

First, you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that there is a strict dividing line between mainline Protestant and evangelical Protestant. Prior to the 20th century, mainline Protestantism was largely evangelical Protestantism. However, most mainline churches today are dominated by the Liberal Theological Tradition, which places Scripture in a subordinate position to human reason and the natural and social sciences. Today, there are still many evangelical Christians within the mainline Protestant churches, but they are usually in the minority.

The better question to ask is what would an evangelical _________ (insert: Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, non-denominational etc.) believe about sacraments?

An evangelical Baptist is not going to believe exactly the same thing as an evangelical Episcopalian.

 

[dronald]

Did James 5 say, “therefore I recommend you confess your sins to one another if you want to.”

When Jesus told the apostles to retain unrepentant sins and forgive repentant ones in John 20 was that also just “if people wanted to do that sort of thing”

Of course there are plenty of accountability groups and such in Catholic circles too, but the sacrament of reconciliation is extremely different and in my experience far more powerful.

What?

 

[SteveVH]

I said encouraged. They can go into specifics if they would like, but the most important thing is to give a testimony of how ones life has changed thanks to Christ.

LOL! If I went into the confessional and said “bless me Father, for my life has been transformed by Christ. I now go to Mass every Sunday and things at home have been so much better” he would ask me what I thought I was doing. That is an entirely different scenario than owning your own stuff and laying it out on the table. Not to mention the grace received in doing so; an infusion of the Holy Spirit making us alive once again.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So essentially you’ve explained that Christians are often not obedient. I agree.
I would say this is the exception rather than the rule. If there’s been an evil group of Catholic Priests who strayed away and took advantage of their position; disregarding true doctrine, well that’s an individual problem.

Evangelicals preach Christ. Just because we have more fun doesn’t mean we’re any less right.

I truly hope it is the exemption not the rule…It was not until I became more deeply involved in the inner workings of my evangelical church that I started to see the true priorities coming out.

I have attended more that several though in my area that have these endemic problems.

Where your treasure is there your heart is also.

When the church spent 50 times on Tv Screens, church modernization, stage props, pastor’s salaries, AV equipment, etc… compared to the amount used to feed the poor, visit the imprisoned, etc… that is a problem for me.

When a church with a $15 million dollar a year budget can’t “afford to do communion” but quarterly, that is a problem.

ANyway, I truly hope my experience is the exemption…it seems here in southern california it is much more the norm in large non denim churches.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What?

You described confessing sins to one another as “encouraged” or recommended.

How do you reconcile James 5 and John 20 with the idea of “confessing sins if you feel like it”

 

[dronald]

Of course it’s neither a matter of being “grand” nor of just being “different ways,” is it? The Catholic priest forgives sins in confession. The penitent isn’t “giving testimony,” he is confessing, seeking (and receiving) forgiveness from God through God’s chosen instrument, on God’s terms. The same is true of all the Sacraments in the Church. They are less like our attempts to “climb up” to God and more like His chosen way of “climbing down” to us. His life is communicated via the Sacraments b/c it is His will that it be so. If the Incarnation shows us anything it’s that God isn’t a big fan of working “invisibly” or of using matter merely as a “symbol.” Christ’s material flesh isn’t symbolic of His love for humanity. It is the instrument through which we are reconciled to God.

But really that is all beside my primary question, which has more to do with the difference not between the historic Catholic understanding of the Sacraments and the modern Protestant understanding, but has more to do with the difference (if any) between “mainline Protestant” sacramental theology and “Evangelical / non-denom. / baptist / Pentecostal” understanding of the same.

Yes, both you and Jon asked for an understanding of what confession is in the Evangelical circles and I explained and had said beliefs scrutinized and told which is better.

That’s fine. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It means more to a Catholic to do it “exactly our way” than it means for you to convert to our way.

You use a Priest, we use a group. I can see the Catholic understanding as Biblical and useful. But I do enjoy the holier than thou attitude I receive from Catholics here; I don’t know why… It’s rather sad.

I’m used to Catholics telling me their way is better. Meh.

 

[dronald]

You described confessing sins to one another as “encouraged” or recommended.

How do you reconcile James 5 and John 20 with the idea of “confessing sins if you feel like it”

In front of everyone. At Baptism.

 

[dronald]

I truly hope it is the exemption not the rule…It was not until I became more deeply involved in the inner workings of my evangelical church that I started to see the true priorities coming out.

I have attended more that several though in my area that have these endemic problems.

Where your treasure is there your heart is also.

When the church spent 50 times on Tv Screens, church modernization, stage props, pastor’s salaries, AV equipment, etc… compared to the amount used to feed the poor, visit the imprisoned, etc… that is a problem for me.

When a church with a $15 million dollar a year budget can’t “afford to do communion” but quarterly, that is a problem.

ANyway, I truly hope my experience is the exemption…it seems here in southern california it is much more the norm in large non denim churches.

Let’s not go there Jon.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Evangelicals do not confess sins in order to receive absolution from another person acting in God’s name.

Neither do we. We go to receive forgiveness from God through His chosen instrument - the clergy of the Church He founded and to which He gave the authority to forgive sins.

We confess sins one to another as an expression of the communion of the saints. We confess our sins to one another so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can pray for us, and through their intercession healing, forgiveness, repentance, and victory can come.

Then you’re not of the “Christ is the sole mediator” camp who would attack Catholics for asking for the prayers of the saints in Heaven as well as on Earth?

To receive forgiveness, we go directly to God in prayer.

As do we. Confession is “going directly to God.” Do you think God is omnipresent except in the Confessional of Catholic churches?

First, you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that there is a strict dividing line between mainline Protestant and evangelical Protestant. Prior to the 20th century, mainline Protestantism was largely evangelical Protestantism.

This is historically specious. Modern evangelicalism began in America in the late Nineteenth / early twentieth century. Protestantism began in central Europe in the Sixteenth century.

The better question to ask is what would an evangelical _________ (insert: Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, non-denominational etc.) believe about sacraments?

An evangelical Baptist is not going to believe exactly the same thing as an evangelical Episcopalian.

IOW, Protestantism is so confused that there is no answer to my question? Each Protestant would have a sacramental theology of their own? In such a case, what could sacraments possibly even mean at all?

 

[Jon_S_1]

In front of everyone. At Baptism.

I guess, I just found it odd that you compare that to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I have been involved with both and can tell you they are far different.

Catholics, too give lots of testimony before being confirmed in the church. It is a good thing to do, but it is not he same as the Sacrament of reconciliation.

On top of that, the idea of confessing sins to others, is not something generally practiced in most evangelical circles at least not regularly.

I would like to share a personal story with you… This is not holier than thou, but something that I experienced and would like you to be open to both in my assessment and the reality of what came about from my conversion experience. The Sacrament was so transformational to me, I go often now, and it keeps me in check. It is the ultimate accountability tool, and a fantastic way to receive the Grace of God directly in a way that you can really feel.

My Sacrament of Reconciliation -Finding the Catholic Church: The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)

 

[dronald]

I guess, I just found it odd that you compare that to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I have been involved with both and can tell you they are far different.

Catholics, too give lots of testimony before being confirmed in the church. It is a good thing to do, but it is not he same as the Sacrament of reconciliation.

On top of that, the idea of confessing sins to others, is not something generally practiced in most evangelical circles at least not regularly.

I would like to share a personal story with you… This is not holier than thou, but something that I experienced and would like you to be open to both in my assessment and the reality of what came about from my conversion experience. The Sacrament was so transformational to me, I go often now, and it keeps me in check. It is the ultimate accountability tool, and a fantastic way to receive the Grace of God directly in a way that you can really feel.

My Sacrament of Reconciliation -Finding the Catholic Church: The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)

You asked me what confession looks like to me and I explained the multiple ways we confess our sins. That’s all my friend.

 

[SteveVH]

After reading through this thread I find it unsettling how far many faith traditions have strayed from the faith of the Apostles. It is evident that very few have the first clue of what constitutes a sacrament and therefore have no idea what they actually reject in the Catholic faith. It’s just sad; the grace and beauty they are missing.

 

[ltwin]

Then you’re not of the “Christ is the sole mediator” camp who would attack Catholics for asking for the prayers of the saints in Heaven as well as on Earth?

I am of the Christ is the sole mediator camp. Intercessory prayer is when you pray on behalf of yourself or another person. Asking for intercessory prayer is not the same as asking for a person to mediate between you and God. Christ already fulfills that. It is prayer that you pray for others who are going through spiritual battles. As we pray for others, we join them in spiritual warfare.

I ask people in my church to pray for me. That is not the same thing as praying to a person who is deceased and presumably in Heaven to ask them to pray to God on my behalf.

As do we. Confession is “going directly to God.” Do you think God is omnipresent except in the Confessional of Catholic churches?

No. I just don’t need a Catholic priest to absolve me of my sins in the persona of Christ. I can go to God directly in prayer and confess my sin. The absolution has already been declared and is recorded in God’s unchanging Word.

This is historically specious. Modern evangelicalism began in America in the late Nineteenth / early twentieth century. Protestantism began in central Europe in the Sixteenth century.

This is in fact wrong. Evangelicalism began in the 18th century in Britain and America. Pietism began earlier in the seventeenth century in German-speaking Lutheran countries. Ever since the Great Awakening, the largest Protestant traditions in the United States were oriented towards Evangelicalism, including Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and many, though not all, Episcopalians.

“Modern evangelicalism” resulted from the split in the mainline churches, when Liberal Protestants won the battle for control over the historic Protestant churches and a large proportion of evangelicals left to found their own churches.

IOW, Protestantism is so confused that there is no answer to my question? Each Protestant would have a sacramental theology of their own? In such a case, what could sacraments possibly even mean at all?

Well, there are different Protestant traditions and evangelicals within those traditions will reflect their tradition’s historical view on the sacraments. I don’t know why you seem surprised by the fact that different Protestant churches have different beliefs.

Evangelicalism is not a single church with a single belief. In fact, mainline Protestantism is not a single church. It is also divided between Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists in the United Church of Christ, mainline Baptists, and the Disciples of Christ. All of these mainline churches have their own takes on the sacraments.