Do Evangelicals Believe in Any Sacraments?

[Cat]

I grew up in an Evangelical Protestant denomination (Conference Baptist), and spent the first 47 years of my life as an Evangelical Protestant. Over those 47 years, I attended several different churches (mainly due to moves), and I was involved with many other Evangelical churches.

Evangelicals will recognize the following names. John Ortberg was in my youth group growing up. The current president of Campus Crusade for Christ was a member of my church and usually spoke in services or conferences at least once a year. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor.

I drop these names only to prove to Evangelicals my standing as an Evangelcal Protestant. These credentials would be considered impeccable among Evangelical Protestants. (Catholics, it would be like saying that Joseph Ratzinger was a member of your parish.)

The conversation on this thread is interesting, but I think that everyone is making it too complicated. The common Evangelical teaching on baptism and communion is that these two actions are SYMBOLS only.

This is what makes them different from the Catholic definition of SACRAMENTS, which actually confer the grace. Evangelicals do not believe that these “symbols” confer any grace, but only symbolize the grace that Christ alone gives.

They are important symbols, but not as important as the growth in holiness that should occur when Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior and you are living in close relationship with Him throughout the days and years of your life. However, because Jesus commanded us to be baptized and to receive Him in the communion (ceremony), Evangelicals continue to practice these two symbols.

The other “sacraments” (marriage, ordinations, anointing with oil, confession, confirmation) are not considered ordinances because they are not seen by Evangelical Protestants as commanded by Jesus Himself in the Bible. Remember that Evangelical Protestants do not look to history or tradition for their doctrine, but only to the Bible.

I do realize that some Evangelical Protestants teach that Baptism initiates Christians into a “covenant”, but that is not the same thing as what Catholics teach.

Also, the Campbellite denominations, the Christian church, Church of Christ (NOT United Church of Christ!!! ), and Disciples of Christ fellowships (they actually don’t refer to themselves as “denominations”) teach that baptism is a requirement to be saved, and they offer communion at EVERY meeting. My husband and I attended a Campbellite church in college, and we feel that this church was closest to the Catholic Church, of all the Evangelical Protestant denominations that we were involved with over the years. Our years in the Campbellite church prepared us spiritually and intellectually to eventually convert to Catholicism.

I hope this is helpful in understanding Evangelical Protestant teaching on the ordinances. Just remember one word: symbols.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s all the same. You’re comparing something you notice in the place you are. The CC is great, but it’s no different. The entire reformation started because of how bad people were spending money. The Vatican is worth far more than any non-denom Church I’ve heard of. But I don’t condemn your Church for owning an entire country; it is what it is.

Do I wish we could all stop being so fancy to do better? Well yeah. Do I believe what you’re trying to sell me that the CC is always wise with their money and Evangelicals are the worst? No, I don’t.

What I sm trying to show is that division causes a serious waste of resources. That division causes tremendous duplication of effort, and that division causes a spirit of competitiveness that leads to Protestant churches of almost identical belief forming next door to each other and fighting for the converts.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I grew up in an Evangelical Protestant denomination (Conference Baptist), and spent the first 47 years of my life as an Evangelical Protestant. Over those 47 years, I attended several different churches (mainly due to moves), and I was involved with many other Evangelical churches.

Evangelicals will recognize the following names. John Ortberg was in my youth group growing up. The current president of Campus Crusade for Christ was a member of my church and usually spoke in services or conferences at least once a year. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor.

I drop these names only to prove to Evangelicals my standing as an Evangelcal Protestant. These credentials would be considered impeccable among Evangelical Protestants. (Catholics, it would be like saying that Joseph Ratzinger was a member of your parish.)

The conversation on this thread is interesting, but I think that everyone is making it too complicated. The common Evangelical teaching on baptism and communion is that these two actions are SYMBOLS only.

This is what makes them different from the Catholic definition of SACRAMENTS, which actually confer the grace. Evangelicals do not believe that these “symbols” confer any grace, but only symbolize the grace that Christ alone gives.

They are important symbols, but not as important as the growth in holiness that should occur when Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior and you are living in close relationship with Him throughout the days and years of your life. However, because Jesus commanded us to be baptized and to receive Him in the communion (ceremony), Evangelicals continue to practice these two symbols.

The other “sacraments” (marriage, ordinations, anointing with oil, confession, confirmation) are not considered ordinances because they are not seen by Evangelical Protestants as commanded by Jesus Himself in the Bible. Remember that Evangelical Protestants do not look to history or tradition for their doctrine, but only to the Bible.

I do realize that some Evangelical Protestants teach that Baptism initiates Christians into a “covenant”, but that is not the same thing as what Catholics teach.

Also, the Campbellite denominations, the Christian church, Church of Christ (NOT United Church of Christ!!! ), and Disciples of Christ fellowships (they actually don’t refer to themselves as “denominations”) teach that baptism is a requirement to be saved, and they offer communion at EVERY meeting. My husband and I attended a Campbellite church in college, and we feel that this church was closest to the Catholic Church, of all the Evangelical Protestant denominations that we were involved with over the years. Our years in the Campbellite church prepared us spiritually and intellectually to eventually convert to Catholicism.

I hope this is helpful in understanding Evangelical Protestant teaching on the ordinances. Just remember one word: symbols.

Well said…to name drop too, I grew up in Chuck Swindoll’s church, visited John MacArthur’s church a couple times as well. Rick warren and Charles Schuller were also at nearby churches.

My experience reflects your description. I knew a pastors daughter who is very active in ministry that at the age of 37 still feels no need for baptism.

Both baptism and communion were nice to do symbols, but they were never in any way forced upon me or even strongly encouraged. They were rarely discussed in sermons. In general our church of 5000 baptized between 50-100 a year, mostly 8th graders wanting to go on the overseas missions trips. Other than eighth graders it was 10 or fewer a year.

When these things are mere symbols, and we teach that people are saved when they convert with a once saved always saved undertone, than the idea of sacraments evaporates.

 

[guanophore]

Evangelicals seem to concentrate on getting people "saved" to the exclusion of much else. IOWs they are interested in souls but much less in the existence of individuals needs while corporate here on earth.

In any kind of Reform movement, there is likely a wide overcorrection for abuses. For example, St. Frances radical form of poverty was a diametric opposition to the opulance of Bishops and Cardinals in his day. They had their own castles and wealth.

In the same way, Evangelicalism was born out of traditional mainline Protestant communities that actually had good emphasis on the “the existence of individual needs while on earth”. So much so, in fact, that their practice of Christianity had become rote and lifeless (not an uncommon phenomena among Catholics either).

One of the main goals of the movement was to restore the sense of fire, personal mission, and evangelistic fervor that can be seen in the NT. There, when people got “saved” they responded by transformed lives, ,inwardly and outwardly.

So getting people “saved” does not cost much and leaves the church funds available for things like big screen TVs, expensive sound and lighting systems and bands. The “Lord’s Supper” is not nearly so important as preaching to ‘save’ peoples souls for the afterlife. There is a large “first” church that built a new building even though the one they already had was just as large. Problem was it looked like a church with stained glass and a big pipe organ. Such things are out of style with Evangelicals right now. So they spent many millions on an “unchurchy” church that resembles a theater or auditorium, right down to the stadium seating with cup holders.

It is a sad fact that Americans, no matter what their religious stripe, seek entertainment primarily. One reason that the non-denom mega churches prosper so much is because they appeal to the emotions. There are some excellent preachers and music groups, and some media specialists that can put on a concert just as well as any secular group. All this “bling” serves to draw the attention and emotion to a central point, which is intended to be Christ.

Whether or not these activities are actually transformative…I am not sure the research has been done.

 

[guanophore]

Living the Spirit-Formed Life: Growing in the 10 Principles of Spirit-Filled Discipleship

(pp. 246, 251-252).

Thanks for posting this Itwin. A refreshing "blast from my past’.

The last statement is important. We are not acting on our own but through the ministry of prayer are being caught up in the work of the Trinity, in which both Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us.

I am curious what you believe happens to souls after this life. Do you believe in "soul sleep’?

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 states, “For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.” Prayer is one of the most powerful weapons the Christian has.

But it seems to me that, if humans have been empowered to wage spiritual warfare on the spiritual plane, then we are not restricted to this temporal plane in which our bodies live.

It’s not that I don’t think they can. It’s that I cannot communicate with them on this plane of existence.

So now I am confused. Are you speaking here of a third “plane of existence” in which the saints dwell? If not, then how is it we are able to wage spiritual warfare against evil in the Spiritual plane, but cannot communicate with the members of the Body who have passed from this life? We know that nothing can separate us from God’s love, so why would death separate us from our forefathers in faith? Do you think they are no longer members of the One Body?

I am curious how the events of I Samuel 28 fit into your paradigm of communication with the afterlife. It is clear from this passage that Samuel, the prophet of God, did appear to Saul and have a conversation with him. Samuel is well aware of events that occur here on earth, just as Moses and Elijah were when they spoke to Jesus. The souls who have departed are also aware of events that are about to occur (imminent death in both cases).

 

[SteveVH]

It is true that we have become incredibly desensitized to the scandal of separation.

11 Holy Father…that they may be one, even as we are one. 20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. John 17:11–24

Is it any wonder that our witness is compromised?

Division is even used as a defense: “You can’t say that about Protestants in general, there is a great variety of beliefs and some of them believe…”. Sadly, it is true. It would take many brushes to paint Protestantism. And yes, our witness is compromised.

 

[Kliska]

Do Evangelicals ever consider the Eastern concept of “Holy Mysteries”?

I do. I think this is a key concept, and one that I believe comes closer to what I believe is taught via scripture. I push-back against the word “sacrament” because of what it has come to mean on the surface understanding level. Sacrament is like a vehicle for grace in the popular understanding of that word. To me, scripture is clear; grace is via faith. But this is where James comes in, as well as Paul.

The faith of the person is what connects with God’s unmerited favor (that’s grace), the faith is seen by the sacrament and its physical components. The easiest way to explain is; take an adult atheist that has never been baptized. If someone surprises that atheist out walking, dumps water on his head (or grabs him and dunks him), in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, nada. Nothing happens. However if that atheist repents (has a mind change about God) and believes Jesus, faithes on Jesus, then that opens the way of grace, now when that person is baptized it means something because the grace is flowing via faith. In essence, it is as Paul described the faith of Abraham; he believed and it was counted to him as righteousness; but what was it that Abraham believed that we could see? God told Abraham to get up and go, Abraham 1) Faithed on God and 2) Got up and went.

I think too much emphasis is put on trying to separate the two acts, and I come close to the Catholic understanding of “baptism by desire.” Meaning, there are some Protestants who believe water baptism is a necessity no matter what; if you are on the way to be baptized and die, too bad, you’re Hell bound. That leaves no room for grace through faith. Over all, with many of the “sacraments” it is basically obedience vs. rebellion.

 

[andrewstx]

The Vatican is very pretty. Can we stop using this as an argument?

True, but the Vatican is hundreds of years old and has not been ‘updated’ or replaced to make it ‘unchurchy’ or a place to see a performance with secular bands. The Vatican has no stadium seating with cupholders.

My parish church is not-so pretty. Nor are most parish churches. Even the cathedral for this diocese is pretty much mundane looking. The Catholic church is not out to ‘save’ souls only and then abandons them. The CC looks after people body and soul. We spend untold millions a year tending to both body and soul. Our missioners tend to people’s souls but also gives them medical attention AND food and shelter if needed.

Can your denomination say this with honesty?

Thus the answer is NO.

 

[dronald]

True, but the Vatican is hundreds of years old and has not been ‘updated’ or replaced to make it ‘unchurchy’ or a place to see a performance with secular bands. The Vatican has no stadium seating with cupholders.

My parish church is not-so pretty. Nor are most parish churches. Even the cathedral for this diocese is pretty much mundane looking. The Catholic church is not out to ‘save’ souls only and then abandons them. The CC looks after people body and soul. We spend untold millions a year tending to both body and soul. Our missioners tend to people’s souls but also gives them medical attention AND food and shelter if needed.

Can your denomination say this with honesty?

Thus the answer is NO.

Ah, you got me. Us Evangelicals can’t wait to getcha then abandon you. It’s the Evangelical way!

You’re all so well educated on our Theology and ways. I wish I knew as much about Catholicism as you do the Church I attend. I might begin to think that Catholics are idol worshiping, Mary adoring, pagan ritualistic people who believe the Pope is God.

 

[andrewstx]

I grew up in an Evangelical Protestant denomination (Conference Baptist), and spent the first 47 years of my life as an Evangelical Protestant. Over those 47 years, I attended several different churches (mainly due to moves), and I was involved with many other Evangelical churches.

Evangelicals will recognize the following names. John Ortberg was in my youth group growing up. The current president of Campus Crusade for Christ was a member of my church and usually spoke in services or conferences at least once a year. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor.

I drop these names only to prove to Evangelicals my standing as an Evangelcal Protestant. These credentials would be considered impeccable among Evangelical Protestants. (Catholics, it would be like saying that Joseph Ratzinger was a member of your parish.)

The conversation on this thread is interesting, but I think that everyone is making it too complicated. The common Evangelical teaching on baptism and communion is that these two actions are SYMBOLS only.

This is what makes them different from the Catholic definition of SACRAMENTS, which actually confer the grace. Evangelicals do not believe that these “symbols” confer any grace, but only symbolize the grace that Christ alone gives.

They are important symbols, but not as important as the growth in holiness that should occur when Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior and you are living in close relationship with Him throughout the days and years of your life. However, because Jesus commanded us to be baptized and to receive Him in the communion (ceremony), Evangelicals continue to practice these two symbols.

The other “sacraments” (marriage, ordinations, anointing with oil, confession, confirmation) are not considered ordinances because they are not seen by Evangelical Protestants as commanded by Jesus Himself in the Bible. Remember that Evangelical Protestants do not look to history or tradition for their doctrine, but only to the Bible.

I do realize that some Evangelical Protestants teach that Baptism initiates Christians into a “covenant”, but that is not the same thing as what Catholics teach.

Also, the Campbellite denominations, the Christian church, Church of Christ (NOT United Church of Christ!!! ), and Disciples of Christ fellowships (they actually don’t refer to themselves as “denominations”) teach that baptism is a requirement to be saved, and they offer communion at EVERY meeting. My husband and I attended a Campbellite church in college, and we feel that this church was closest to the Catholic Church, of all the Evangelical Protestant denominations that we were involved with over the years. Our years in the Campbellite church prepared us spiritually and intellectually to eventually convert to Catholicism.

I hope this is helpful in understanding Evangelical Protestant teaching on the ordinances. Just remember one word: symbols.

Cat, I was raised in a “church of Christ” Campbellite congregation as well until the age of 18. They did have several resemblences to the Catholic church. I was baptized there by submersion at the age of 16 for the forgiveness of my sins.

But I got tired of the sterile barrenless of that denomination (that is what they truly are) and the legality and the solO scriptura bibliolatry of it all. As soon as I Ieft home I went looking for the real thing and was Catholic in a years time.

For all my troubles I was told by Mom that I "had left Christ’s only church and was disowned.

 

[andrewstx]

Ah, you got me. Us Evangelicals can’t wait to getcha then abandon you. It’s the Evangelical way!

You’re all so well educated on our Theology and ways. I wish I knew as much about Catholicism as you do the Church I attend. I might begin to think that Catholics are idol worshiping, Mary adoring, pagan ritualistic people who believe the Pope is God.

You forget, or I have not told you that I was an Evangelical as well, born and raised. I am the only member of my extended family who is not Evangelical.

So yes I am very familiar with Evangelical Protestant, having been there and done that. And by my family, I still am.

 

[Tommy999]

True, but the Vatican is hundreds of years old and has not been ‘updated’ or replaced to make it ‘unchurchy’ or a place to see a performance with secular bands. The Vatican has no stadium seating with cupholders.

My parish church is not-so pretty. Nor are most parish churches. Even the cathedral for this diocese is pretty much mundane looking. The Catholic church is not out to ‘save’ souls only and then abandons them. The CC looks after people body and soul. We spend untold millions a year tending to both body and soul. Our missioners tend to people’s souls but also gives them medical attention AND food and shelter if needed.

Can your denomination say this with honesty?

Thus the answer is NO.

Andrew,
I think you are painting protestants with too broad of a brush, my friend.

All the protestant churches I’ve ever attended have had an outreach to the poor, both in and outside the church/parish family.

For example, my current local church has what is called an ‘Essentials Closet’ that contains food and clothing for families and individuals in need. It even gives $20 gas cards to those who truly need them, as supply allows. People don’t even have to belong to the church to benefit from this outreach. My wife and I designate part of our offerings to that worthy ministry due to its practical nature.

Our church supports a couple of local public schools with donations of food and other supplies for after-school programs, etc. It also donates funds and manpower to build water wells in Africa and sent a team recently to Belgium (mainly women) to help a Christian outreach that helps minister to women and girls who were victims of human trafficking. A group of men helps do minor home repairs and free yard care for widows and other church members who are homebound and can’t afford it.

It is not good to stereotype people of other faith traditions any more than it is for Protestants to stereotype Catholics. All of us must be careful to try not to do that.

By the way, this is a very interesting thread overall and I’m glad I stumbled onto it. I’m learning a lot from it from all the contributors.

 

[dronald]

You forget, or I have not told you that I was an Evangelical as well, born and raised. I am the only member of my extended family who is not Evangelical.

So yes I am very familiar with Evangelical Protestant, having been there and done that. And by my family, I still am.

So you need to look past the people who have wronged you, forgive them and understand that Christianity has produced much great for this world; even if it hasn’t been Catholic/Orthodox.

Why am I so willing to admit the vast greatness Catholicism has done for this world and overlook the bad, knowing that Catholicism is inherently good; despite its members. Why can’t the same be done for us sinners who are not Catholic?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Ah, you got me. Us Evangelicals can’t wait to getcha then abandon you. It’s the Evangelical way!

You’re all so well educated on our Theology and ways. I wish I knew as much about Catholicism as you do the Church I attend. I might begin to think that Catholics are idol worshiping, Mary adoring, pagan ritualistic people who believe the Pope is God.

You have to remember most of us spent a lot of time in Protestant churches and converted. Perhaps you are lucky and fortunate enough to find a quality church. The thread is more about the underlying roots that lead to so many shallow and doctrinally loose churches.

 

[dronald]

You have to remember most of us spent a lot of time in Protestant churches and converted. Perhaps you are lucky and fortunate enough to find a quality church. The thread is more about the underlying roots that lead to so many shallow and doctrinally loose churches.

No, it’s not a doctrine problem but rather a human problem. I don’t know what these Church’s are teaching but if it’s “Keep on sinning, it’s all good; whatever” than I highly doubt it’s an Evangelical Church. You know deep down how seriously we take abortion and even homosexuality. To pretend we’re light on a literal interpretation of the Scriptures is unfair.

So what is it then? A people problem? Of course. A mega Church may have a pastor who indulges himself in money, or may have members that abandon you, or something of that sort. But must we pretend this is an Evangelical problem? We know of Priests who have lavish lives and have even stolen. We know of the sexual scandals in the past. Is this a doctrinal problem?

The fact is, every large group will have sinners. I don’t know what doctrine these ‘cupholder’ Churches are preaching but it’s certainly not mainline Evangelicalism.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No, it’s not a doctrine problem but rather a human problem. I don’t know what these Church’s are teaching but if it’s “Keep on sinning, it’s all good; whatever” than I highly doubt it’s an Evangelical Church. You know deep down how seriously we take abortion and even homosexuality. To pretend we’re light on a literal interpretation of the Scriptures is unfair.

So what is it then? A people problem? Of course. A mega Church may have a pastor who indulges himself in money, or may have members that abandon you, or something of that sort. But must we pretend this is an Evangelical problem? We know of Priests who have lavish lives and have even stolen. We know of the sexual scandals in the past. Is this a doctrinal problem?

The fact is, every large group will have sinners. I don’t know what doctrine these ‘cupholder’ Churches are preaching but it’s certainly not mainline Evangelicalism.

Do you have evidence that “cup holder churches” are not mainstream evangelicalism?

It is where I live and it seems you cannot have an evangelical church without a coffee bar to serve lattes to take into church.

We can argue on who is the better evangelical, all day. At the end of the day it’s a Protestant problem. A problem that flourishes in the absence of authority.

The church I attended for years, chuck Swindoll’s old church, held Easter in a football stadium completely closing the church, they had bounce houses, opened the service with songs from the movie Frozen, and launched T Shirts into the stands to the roaring crowd.

The church is very Evangelical.

If it was an anomaly I’d treat it as such, but it is far too often the norm. And as I said before, it is the underlying erroneous roots that cause this stuff to flourish.

 

[Jon_S_1]

For fun, I googled "evangelical churches (my city, ca)

I got an immediate 10 church list within 5 miles.

Of those 10, I don’t know 2 of them, but the other 8 all have stadium seating and full coffee bars.

And as I mentioned before…imagine if these 10 churches United and had 1 church in this 25 square mile area. Stadium seats and all, how much money could be spent on doing Gods work. Instead the duplicate effort, pay for property and fees that are unnecessary, pay for unnecessary church upgraded, etc… All that could be cut easily in half by Banding together. Hundreds and hundreds of millions wasted just in this little area. And if history and statistics prove anything, half of these churches will be gone in 50 years.

 

[dronald]

This is the most ridiculous thread I’ve ever taken part in.

That’ll do for me.

 

[JustaServant]

Do you have evidence that “cup holder churches” are not mainstream evangelicalism?

It is where I live and it seems you cannot have an evangelical church without a coffee bar to serve lattes to take into church.

We can argue on who is the better evangelical, all day. At the end of the day it’s a Protestant problem. A problem that flourishes in the absence of authority.

The church I attended for years, chuck Swindoll’s old church, held Easter in a football stadium completely closing the church, they had bounce houses, opened the service with songs from the movie Frozen, and launched T Shirts into the stands to the roaring crowd.

The church is very Evangelical.

If it was an anomaly I’d treat it as such, but it is far too often the norm. And as I said before, it is the underlying erroneous roots that cause this stuff to flourish.

Uh no it’s not the norm
I was born Catholic but spent almost two decades in various fundamentalist and evangelical churches, many of them in a pulpit myself, before I came back to the Church. So I know what I am talking about.
If you want to critique evangelical mega-churches you will find many allies among evangelicals themselves. What you are doing is making Catholics look like a bunch of high-brow bigots looking down their noses at the evangelical commoners. I know you’re zealous, but perhaps some of that energy would be put to better use by NOT treating people with disrespect.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This is the most ridiculous thread I’ve ever taken part in.

That’ll do for me.

Sorry bro’, we know you are not like that and I’m sad about the generalizations