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guanophore
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It is an interesting question Kliska, but no, Eucharist is how He has chosen to remain with us until the end of the age. Through it we cling to the Vine.
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SjMelnychuk
Guest
This is also a very mystical Sacrament within the Catholic Church because in a very mystical way we step outside of the boundaries of time. Past Present and Future present. So when we participate in the Sacrament of our Eucharist we join for all time the communion of the Saints including the day Jesus proclaimed … “this is my body and this is my blood” …
Now to further answer the question at the start of this thread:
As somebody who attended for quite a few years an Evangelical Church. Evangelicals hold to the belief in Ordinances. Some Evangelicals understand the concept of Sacrament but there are no official teachings of Sacraments. Baptism is still considered a symbol of inward conversion and Eucharist is still just a symbol in accordance with official Evangelical teachings. However, many Evangelicals will believe our Eucharist is more than just a symbol and that it has to be spiritually something more then just bread and grape juice … grape juice is often used instead of wine within evangelical churches.
So … short answer … There are no Sacraments within the Evangelical Churches. In many was, within the Evangelical communities many try to find ways to express their spiritual faith journey through a kind of Sacramental living.
In other words …
They’ll understand Confession and will honor Confession in their own way. For example, instead of seeing a Priest often times as an exercise will write down their sin on a piece of paper and pin it to a Cross or burn it in a fire or will pray with somebody during an “alter call”
They’ll understand Baptism as meaningful and many feel this spiritual awakening if you will, when they’re baptized.
They’ll understand Marriage (Some … not all)
They’ll understand Apostolic Authority … however, many Evangelicals are Egalitarian in belief. Egalitarian has a different approach to Apostolic Authority.
All of these things are as close to a Sacramental way of life as possible. Are they taught as Sacraments? No. Are they viewed as Sacraments? No. Do they officially teach in Sacraments? No.
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SjMelnychuk
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If you’re Pentecostal you believe in Apostolic Authority … in a sense.
If you’re Pentecostal you believe in the laying on of hands and the receiving of impartation of gifts, spiritual gifts, you believe in spheres of influences, perhaps you follow teachings out of Bethel as teachings on the 7 Mountains, you also believe in Offices of the Prophet, Priest, Teacher, etc you would then believe that some have greater authority than others and will have greater responsibility than others.
Lets just say you believe “the verse” does mean the Apostles were given authority to forgive sin.
Take for example Elijah and Elisha … I believe it was Elisha that through the cloak of Elijah received a double portion of Elijah’s Office as Prophet so he received a double portion blessing etc … if you believe that, which I know is taught in Pentecostal circles because I went through 3 years of a Pentecostal Bible College etc so if this is a common belief system that Elisha could receive the prophetic authority from Elijah through his cloak why couldn’t Priestly Authority be passed on through the laying on of hands etc?
And help me follow through with how you could think that perhaps the Apostles were given Authority to forgive sin and have that tradition, Sacrament, or “Priestly Authority” not be passed on from Apostles to Priests who would perform the same Priestly duties as the Apostles?
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SjMelnychuk
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This is so frickin true!
It was my biggest beef I had with both the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches. Discipleship lacked. The personal relationships lacked. Pastors would select a few people to truly invest in and spent time with and so there were others who fell through the cracks so to speak.
As a result, whenever I was in a place of leadership within the context of ministry I took note of the marginalized. One time I was just helping some people I knew run a children’s bible camp. There was one teenage girl among the older kids who was part of the leadership team who was acting out in any way possible trying to gain attention etc and she became a burden to the rest of the team. Instead of caring for her they just got frustrated with her and ignored her. After hearing the gossip of the rest of the team I basically sat her down and said, “look, we’re gonna sit down here, privately, just you and me, and we’re gonna have a chat, the two of us.” I also told her that this conversation would remain confidential and that nobody else has to know anything.
Little did everyone else know is that she was struggling with a past BIG SIN in her life. And the burden of holding onto that particular sin in her life basically raised its ugly head and stunting her ability to not only mature emotionally but mature spiritually as well. I prayed with her. She experienced healing. For the first time in a very long time she was able to walk around with her head held high instead of being bogged down with the toxic shame as a result of a past moral/sexual/ethical failure but that day she shared with me about the sexual abuse she had experienced in the past. I mean, it was heavy stuff she unloaded that day. And also, to note, the way she was acting out changed. She no longer exaggerated her injuries or manipulated a crowd for attention.
What’s the point to this story?
That’s just a major critique I had against Evangelical / Pentecostal Communities.
The Catholic Church has areas in which we can grow too though! I mean, I’d like to see a woman’s group that doesn’t devolve into tea time but a woman’s group where we can grow spiritually and develop a greater understanding of our faith and how we can invest in our faith communities etc. I miss attending bible study / small groups. When I attended Evangelical / Protestant Churches it was easy to meet people and join various groups after church. If I attend Mass in the evening it’s a rarity to meet a few people and join them for food and drinks after Mass… but then again Catholic culture is different from Evangelical culture.
My point is, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. And I can critique the Evangelical / Pentecostal Churches in these areas because I had been part of that community for so long but I’m still a newbie Catholic and I haven’t really plugged into one specific parish yet so I’ll reserve any critique I might have regarding Parish communities.
However, I still appreciate what I heard one lady at the last Evangelical Church I attended say, “We’re all looking for the perfect church but that perfect church doesn’t exist. We’re like one big happy dysfunctional family and so it’s really just a matter of finding which dysfunction you feel most comfortable with”
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SjMelnychuk
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Pentecostals would be surprised just how Catholic they really are !! lol
Really, especially if you mix with the likes of those from Bethel it really is the Apostolic picture that exists within the Catholic Church. The only differences would technically be worship church service vs Mass and Ordinances vs Sacrament. A Pentecostal even doesn’t hold to a faith alone doctrine… but believes works are the fruit of ones faith and one must persevere in the faith because a Pentecostal doesn’t believe in once saved always saved doctrine.
Pentecostals are more Catholic than Pentecostals would like to admit.
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ltwin
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Of course.
I believe in the laying on of hands.
I’m not familiar with that terminology.
I don’t subscribe to 7 Mountains teaching, and Bethel is kind of too radical for me, although I appreciate a lot of their music.
I believe in the offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. I believe every Christian is a priest. The question is not authority but what kind of authority.
Because you are assuming that a special “priestly” caste was meant to “receive” this authority. This authority, if it was to continue, would have went to the church as a whole. We are a holy nation, a royal priesthood. Binding and loosing, declaring forgiveness of sins and withholding forgiveness are ministries of the church as a whole.
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spedteacherita
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I worshiped at a variety of different churches as a child and into my teen years and I don’t remember any of the terms being used.
What I remember most is there was normally an “altar call” and when we did have communion the elements were passed from one end of the pew to the other. Again, there may have been and admonishment reminding us not to proceed with eating them if there was a sinful issue that should be taken care of first.
I’m going to see if I can research this a little bit…It’s worth learning and understanding.
God bless!
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SjMelnychuk
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I thought it was best to answer this question in another thread because we’re getting a bit off topic now. Perhaps that was my bad. Anyway, I provided a link below:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12805012#post12805012
If you wish to see my response the thread is called “What’s Your Authority”
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SjMelnychuk
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Some Protestant Traditions like Lutheran, Anglican, United Churches of Canada, and I’m sure a few other Protestant denominations but these more traditional denominations hold to the same Sacraments the Catholic Church does. And more specifically, Lutheran and Anglican Churches teach the same theology around the Eucharist as well. However, these denominations are still considered Protestant Churches.
Then you have Church denominations that were born out of the Anabaptist movements. The theology within these denominations are different. Sacraments were turned into Ordinances and symbolism to reflect inward conversion.
So yes, wide spread disagreement within Protestant Churches regarding Sacraments and Ordinances. However, denominations more in line with the Anabaptist movement will have similar views of Ordinances and those who may be changing their views on Ordinances may be on their way towards changing Churches. However, within the context of Protestant Churches it’s not uncommon to change Church denominations because most Protestants don’t subscribe to one particular denomination… although you have die hard folks within their own denominations. It really depends on a few factors.
Question is, do all Protestants agree on Sacraments? NO because some Protestant Churches, like I’ve said before have Sacraments while others do not. As mentioned earlier in this post, if you’re talking about a Church born out of the Anabaptist movement Sacraments have been turned into Ordinances. Not every Protestant Church was born out of the Anabaptist movement.
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aidanbradypop
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Evangelical is such a wide net. Many non denom will often refer to themselves as Evangelical. I am a Evangelical and attend a Assembly of God congregation. We have two…Baptism and Lord’s Supper. Some may refer to them as sacraments but ordinance would probably what you would hear most often.
Ordinance means an authoritative order; a decree. Jesus said to eat so we eat. We are told to be baptized so we do as commanded.
Ordinance means an authoritative order; a decree. Jesus said to eat so we eat. We are told to be baptized so we do as commanded.
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followingtruth
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What was so surprising to me was learning, a few years ago that there are Catholics who do not believe in Real Presence. Basically as many Trinitarian denominations there are, there are as many differing beliefs held by Catholics. It is almost as if I [as a Lutheran] am more Catholic in beliefs than many Catholics!!
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Koineman
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The funny thing is that those evangelicals who deny sacraments and claim that the Lord’s Supper and baptism are only symbols, have “sacraments” of their own. The altar call and sinner’s prayer, for example, are what I like to call “baptist sacraments” since they involve the belief that spiritual effects are brought about by doing something.
Then there is the Bible itself. I like to call that the “portable sacrament”–not that it’s actually a sacrament in the official sense, but rather that it’s a material object through which spiritual effects occur, and they bring it with them to church every Sunday.
So, when any evangelical claims to deny sacraments, remind them of these things. Those folks are closer to accepting sacraments than they realize.
Then there is the Bible itself. I like to call that the “portable sacrament”–not that it’s actually a sacrament in the official sense, but rather that it’s a material object through which spiritual effects occur, and they bring it with them to church every Sunday.
So, when any evangelical claims to deny sacraments, remind them of these things. Those folks are closer to accepting sacraments than they realize.
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aidanbradypop
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Not sure this is entirely true. The altar call is not consider a sacrament. Going to the altar alone does not grant anything. Praying with one another is where the effect comes in. The “altar call” can be done anywhere. If you are at home and bend down to pray beside you bed is an example. We do not deny a sacrament but merely the name. Ordinance would be the term.
Not following your thought here on this statement.
This would be true if Evangelical did away with baptism and communion.
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Koineman
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See the boldfaced part of your words. It’s still doing something to bring about a spiritual effect.
As to denying sacraments, baptist churches and nondenominational churches (which are essentially baptist churches without the name) deny any spiritual effects happening through what other churches call sacraments, such as the Lord’s Supper and baptism.
One of the common reasons for denying sacraments is a rejection of the idea that God works through material means.
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Jon_S_1
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I am curious why you and evangelicals in general “object” to the word sacrament.
Here is the definition:
Sacrament- a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
If an altar call is not a sacrament in evangelicalism I don’t know what is! Doesn’t the altar call fit with that definition?
I’m curious why you as an evangelical don’t practice anointing of the sick?
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Jon_S_1
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It was this thinking that lead me to believe God didn’t perform miracles anymore when I was evangelical, at least not large scale miracles.
The idea that God does not act through the church in a real and physical way, led to a sort of Deist thinking on my part.
After that, really and truly experiencing Gods grace in a palpable way in the sacraments was all the sweeter.
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aidanbradypop
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Koineman
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Several possible reasons, depending on the person you talk to. Based on my experience, it could be any of the following:
- because they see it as a “work” (hence my point about sinner’s prayers)
- because they have an issue with the idea that God works through material means (hence my reference to the Bible as a kind of sacrament)
- because they tend to be suspicious of anything they associate with the Catholic Church.
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Koineman
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Doesn’t matter. If sacraments are rejected on the basis that they involve “doing something,” then sinner’s prayers must be rejected, too.
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Jon_S_1
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Yes I think 3 is the primary reason with 1 and 2 following as logical fruits of a rejection of something simply because it’s “catholic”
Sort of the throwing out the baby with the bath water as so many of my evangelical friends end up acknowledging when we discuss this stuff (to their credit )
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