Do excommunicated people automatically go to hell?

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LVCIVS_DEI said:
I am not getting a clear answer on this subject.
So what about Protestants, Anglicans and people in the Old Catholic Church?
Luvtosew says:
“They can go to heaven too. One does not need to be Catholic to get to heaven”
And Buck Crosswhite says:
“Yep they all go to hell”
Where is a theologian when you need one?. 🤷
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I once heard it put like this. Lets pretend that we are in a town, and a millionaire posts notices all over town one night reading:

Whoever digs a trench from my mansion to the center of town will get $25,000.

Now a lot of people read this note and start to work on the trench, and all of them going about it different ways. Some are taking a long way, thinking it will be an easier route and other take a direct route, wanting to get there quickly. Some are making the trench very wide and others make it very thin and deep.

One night a small group of us run into the millionaire in question and he gives us a map of the best routes to take, explains exactly what the trench is for, how deep and wide it should be, and also gives us a key to a shed filled with power tools that we are free to use to get it done.

The next morning we tell all the people in town working on the trench that we met the millionaire and what he gave us, and offer to share the tools and maps with them as well. Some of them take us up on the offer, but other shun us saying “I will trust only the signs themselves, they don’t say anything about a shed or a map!”

Now are those who refuse our help going to fail 100% of the time? Of course not, however many more of them will fail then those of us who use the map and the contents of the shed. Anybody who finishes the trench will get the money, however some of us are choosing to work a lot harder for it.

Some Protestants, Anglicans and people in the Old Catholic Church will make it to heaven, however many more people in the true Catholic Church will make it there.

Pax :signofcross:
 
LVCIVS_DEI said:
I am not getting a clear answer on this subject.
So what about Protestants, Anglicans and people in the Old Catholic Church?
Luvtosew says:
“They can go to heaven too. One does not need to be Catholic to get to heaven”
And Buck Crosswhite says:
“Yep they all go to hell”
Where is a theologian when you need one?. 🤷
Click to expand...
The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
However, only God know the state of a person’s soul at death.

Who can be saved?

The Church teaching:
  • Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:
  • Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)
You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
 
thistle said:
The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
However, only God know the state of a person’s soul at death.

Who can be saved?

The Church teaching:
  • Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:
  • Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)
You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
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But in the end only god truly knows right?
And if i pray for them will that help?
 
How can anyone other that a Catholic receive the sacrament of penance. Absolution is only for Catholics.
A protestant who has lived 70 years and been good most of the time, but has never received absolution for his sins dies and goes to his judgment where will he end up?
 
thistle said:
The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
However, only God know the state of a person’s soul at death.

Who can be saved?

The Church teaching:
  • Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:
  • Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)
You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
Click to expand...
Excellent. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, but in the end, only God knows!
 
Buck_Crosswhite said:
How can anyone other that a Catholic receive the sacrament of penance. Absolution is only for Catholics.
A protestant who has lived 70 years and been good most of the time, but has never received absolution for his sins dies and goes to his judgment where will he end up?
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God can forgive who he wants to forgive.
 
Was Jesus joking when He told Peter, “What you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven?”

St. Joan’s excommunication was lifted BTW.
 
Buck_Crosswhite said:
Was Jesus joking when He told Peter, “What you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven?”

St. Joan’s excommunication was lifted BTW.
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To bind and to loose means to impose rules and relax rules, not send people to heaven or hell. We are bound to go to mass on New Years and we are bound to not eat meat on Fridays in Lent. We used to be bound to not eat meat on any Fridays, but the Church loosed us of that.

Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority.

ask.com/wiki/Binding_and_loosing

Pax :signofcross:
 
Speedypizza said:
To bind and to loose means to impose rules and relax rules, not send people to heaven or hell. We are bound to go to mass on New Years and we are bound to not eat meat on Fridays in Lent. We used to be bound to not eat meat on any Fridays, but the Church loosed us of that.

Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority.

ask.com/wiki/Binding_and_loosing

Pax :signofcross:
Click to expand...
Interesting. 🙂
 
Speedypizza said:
To bind and to loose means to impose rules and relax rules, not send people to heaven or hell. We are bound to go to mass on New Years and we are bound to not eat meat on Fridays in Lent. We used to be bound to not eat meat on any Fridays, but the Church loosed us of that.

Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority.

ask.com/wiki/Binding_and_loosing

Pax :signofcross:
Click to expand...
You are are making it seem that the Church only has authority to “bind and loose” in matters of discipline. This is not so. The authority given to the Church by Christ covers all matters of faith and morals and a person can be denied absolution if a sincere Confession is not made.
 
thistle said:
You are are making it seem that the Church only has authority to “bind and loose” in matters of discipline. This is not so. The authority given to the Church by Christ covers all matters of faith and morals and a person can be denied absolution if a sincere Confession is not made.
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But did God give any of us the ability to determine if someone makes an insincere confession? If in fact we believe we are confessing directly to Jesus it’s not a man or the church on earth that denies absolution, but Jesus himself who sees in your heart that you are not contrite.
 
thistle said:
You are are making it seem that the Church only has authority to “bind and loose” in matters of discipline. This is not so. The authority given to the Church by Christ covers all matters of faith and morals and a person can be denied absolution if a sincere Confession is not made.
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that is what was meant by bind and loose, if you are saying it means something else as well, could you please show me where you are getting your information from? If I am wrong my understanding, I wish to learn so I do not repeat the same mistake again.

I am not BTW saying that the Church does not have authority over us on all issues of faith and morals, I simply have never heard it said that binding and loosing covers that as well. As far as a person being denied absolution, was that not covered when Jesus said “Those whose sins you forgive, are forgiven them, and those whose sins you retain, are retained them”

Pax :signofcross:
 
Speedypizza said:
I was under the impression that is what was meant by bind and loose, if you are saying it means something else as well, could you please show me where you are getting your information from? If I am wrong my understanding, I wish to learn so I do not repeat the same mistake again.

I am not BTW saying that the Church does not have authority over us on all issues of faith and morals, I simply have never heard it said that binding and loosing covers that as well. As far as a person being denied absolution, was that not covered when Jesus said “Those whose sins you forgive, are forgiven them, and those whose sins you retain, are retained them”

Pax :signofcross:
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See the part I highlighted below.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 19. And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church. — And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c. All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham) — Loose on earth. The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner) — Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. Chrysostom, nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself. He that heareth you, heareth me, &c.** The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2nd. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3nd. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus) -**-- The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence) — Dr. Whitby, a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and the preceding verse: “As a suitable return to thy confession, I say also to thee, that thou art by name Peter, i.e. a rock; and upon thee, who art this rock, I will build my Church, and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of making laws to govern my Church.” (Tom. i, p. 143.) Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same manner. And p. 92, he says: " What is here meant by the keys, is best understand by Isaias xxii. 22, where they signify ruling the whole family or house of the king: and this being by Christ accommodated to the Church, denotes the power of governing it."
 
So ultimately only god can give mercy right?.
To anybody.
And nobody is to judge who is saved and who is not but christ our lord?
Right? 🤷
 
LVCIVS_DEI said:
So ultimately only god can give mercy right?.
To anybody.
And nobody is to judge who is saved and who is not but christ our lord?
Right? 🤷
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Only God knows who is saved.
However, we can objectively state with certainty that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell and is NOT saved.
 
thistle said:
Only God knows who is saved.
However, we can objectively state with certainty that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell and is NOT saved.
Click to expand...
But we have no way of REALLY knowing who is in in a state of mortal sin right?
 
thistle said:
See the part I highlighted below.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 19. And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church. — And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c. All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham) — Loose on earth. The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner) — Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. Chrysostom, nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself. He that heareth you, heareth me, &c.** The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2nd. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3nd. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus) -**-- The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence) — Dr. Whitby, a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and the preceding verse: “As a suitable return to thy confession, I say also to thee, that thou art by name Peter, i.e. a rock; and upon thee, who art this rock, I will build my Church, and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of making laws to govern my Church.” (Tom. i, p. 143.) Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same manner. And p. 92, he says: " What is here meant by the keys, is best understand by Isaias xxii. 22, where they signify ruling the whole family or house of the king: and this being by Christ accommodated to the Church, denotes the power of governing it."
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for that, there were a few things in there I have never heard before.

Pax :signofcross:
 
Speedypizza said:
To bind and to loose means to impose rules and relax rules, not send people to heaven or hell. We are bound to go to mass on New Years and we are bound to not eat meat on Fridays in Lent. We used to be bound to not eat meat on any Fridays, but the Church loosed us of that.

Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority.

ask.com/wiki/Binding_and_loosing

Pax :signofcross:
Click to expand...
I don’t think Jesus was joking about this.
John 20[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23]** Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.**
Click to expand...
 
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