Do I have to affirm the perpetual virginity of Mary?

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thomist said:
All the Dogmas of the Catholic Church MUST be accepted with consent of mind and will. (Cf Canon Law, V2, Catechism).
NONE of them have to be understood
by the believer! As for those who say that this or that Marian Dogma is 'irrelevant to ME", “not understood by ME”, or "I don’t see the relevance, therefore the Church is "using convoluted arguments to ______ " (fill in the blank), that’s waayy too much emphasis on the “ME” doing the doubting.

Do Racer or Patq "understand the relevance of the Trinity",


It is wise to keep in mind that the Bible WAS NOT INSPIRED IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!

First, Thomist, your post is borderline rude. Secondly, did you note that (a) I opened this thread for the purpose of getting a better understanding of the responsibility of the individual believer to this particular dogma and dogma in general, and (b) after doing so, I assented that I accept the dogma.?

There is nothing wrong with questioning. We have to pose questions to get answers. That’s what the forum is for.
 
Racer X:
This clears up the implicit faith vs. explicit faith distinction. Thank you.

However, on further reflection perhaps I do not understand the dogma well enough to be excluded from implicit faith. I understand what the dogma says but I am baffled as to its significance and where it fits in with the rest of the deposit of faith.

We have these Catholic beliefs about God, His relationship to us, origin of creation, the Incarnation of God, the Sacraments, and then–seemingly quite out of place to me–there is a statement about the very private relationship between a particular woman and her husband. How does that fit?

Here are the Marian dogmas from the site given by SV:


  1. *]Mary is truly the Mother of God.
    *]Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.
    *]Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man.
    *]Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.
    *]After the birth of Jesus, Mary remained a Virgin.
    *]Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

    The first four are obviously of Christological significance. The sixth is a historical event of which the early Church was aware and, in light of the Book of Revelation, has an explicit scriptural basis–John saw her in heaven with his own eyes. But why #5?

    I am not calling into question whether the dogma is true or not but why it is a dogma at all. It is certainly a divinely revealed truth that Bathsheba was not a virgin, yet this is not dogma. Bathsheba’s relations with her first husband and David have no theological, soteriological, nor ecclesiological significance. Why does that of our Lord’s Mother?

    Please understand that my discomfort with this dogma stems from the deepest respect of our Mother.

  1. Racer X,
    Why # 5? Just simply because she was God’s tool to be used just by Him for the conception, gestation and birth of HIS Son, nothing else as far as her body is concerned. God gae her an Immaculate Conception for HIS purpose. She had not had known man prior to her conception by the “Breath of God, the Holy Ghost, God Himself” She was HIS clean vessel for HIS use and the use of HIS SON. She was not put on earth to give birth to any other children. She was sinless in birth and in life. She was a special tool of God, for HIS use only. After her death, she was so special that He assumed her to “Heaven” body and soul because of Her love for His Son and His Son’s love for her. She was crowned the Queen of Heaven and given a very special place. She was and is a special case. She was and is the Mother of God, no one elses. The early Church knew that and the Church has affirmed it by making it a piece of it’s dogmatic knowledge and belief.

    As to the difficulty of believing it, I don’t specifically know or understand fully the Trinity, but I believe it explicitly. I also understand why God would produce and maintain as perpetiually clean, a vessel for His use and the use of His Son only. After all HE IS GOD. He deserves it.

    Hope this helps.
    God bless.
    Whit
 
thomist said:
**…*****the Trinity", ***which is quite obviously the most mysterious fact revealed by God about Himself???

actually, i find Daddy’s unwillingness to stop loving me as the most mystrerious thing about Him. if our places were reversed and He did to me the things i’ve done to Him, its unlikely that He’d be walking into my house anytime soon, much less partaking of my Son.
not even augustine or aquinis would be able to get me to understand why He loves me so much, and has for well over 2,000 years.
sorry this really has nothing to do with the initial ? but,
thanks for listening, love and peace, terry
 
Yes! You do have to believe… If the church teaches it…then you must believe it… period

I have done some research on early Christian Writing and I found this very enlightening with regard to Our Blessed Mother…:

Protoevangelium of James
n.b.
scroll down to Information on the Infancy Gospel of James first.

comments on this would be much appreciated.🙂
 
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iguana27:
I do not mean to sound flippant, so please do not take it that way…

What does it hurt to believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity? It is not something that we can fully understand until after death anyway, and as you said, it is not an issue central to your faith.

But the Church teaches it, and we are bound to honor Christ’s Church.

So, in issues like this, I pray and ask the Holy Spirit to help me in my unbelief to be faithful to the teachings of the Church.

I did not become a Catholic to pick and choose what I would like to believe. I would have been better off being a Protestant if I did not want to submit to the authority of the Church,

Submitting to authority is difficult. It requires humility. I requires that we admit that we will not have all of the answers this side of heaven and that we will not have perfect understanding.

Once I made the commitment to accept the authority of the Church, these issues have become non-issues. Once I asked the Holy Spirit to help me understand, I can see that the church’s teaching of perpetual virginity makes sense.

Mary bore the Son of God. Joseph knew this. He kept her as a wife and loved her, sacrificing normal marital relations with her. Considering the unique marital situation, I do not find this impossible to believe.

My advice is to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to open your heart to all the teachings of the Church. Pray especially for the gift of humility, that you would have a teachable spirit. And then thank God that He gave you His Church to love you and teach you and guide you in your life.

God Bless,
Iguana
Well said, I couldn’t agree more.

JRH
 
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ralphinal:
If you mean that a virgin birth is not important, how could we be sure of his devine nature if he was born of a non-virgin. As far as her perpetual virginity, the old is revealed in the new and the new is concealed in the old. The Blessed Mother is the Arc of the New Covenant, and as such no man could touch her.
This may have been mentioned already in this thread, but the relevence of the perpetual virginity was questioned. I agree with raphinal above

I see the dogma of the perpetual viginity as strongly supporting the dogma of Virgin Birth. Without the Virgin Birth, the deity of Christ is more easily dismissed or attacked. If Mary remained perpetually a Virgin, than the only way her one Son could be born was through a miraculous intervention by God. If Jesus was one of six or seven children the Virgin birth would be able to be more easily dismissed as Jesus is only one of Mary’s many natural born children.

For Pat-- I would be very, very careful pitting Church theologians/scholars against the Magesterium of the Church. If the two contradict on matters of faith or morals, who will be your authority? Will it be the Pope and Magesterium, or Catholic theologians, many of whom have swallowed and swim in Modernism. Will the changing whims of theologians/scholars be your guide, or the teaching offices of the Church founded by Christ and guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. Modernism will eventually weaken, fail, and falter, like every great heresy before it and the Church will remain standing as Rock as it has for 2000 years through every storm of dissent and heresy. That is the history of the Catholic Church.

Peter John
 
Many great points. I guess, for me, to simpify, it just comes down to a matter of obedience and faith. 👍
 
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