Do I let it go?

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sires6

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Ok, so I got annoyed. You see, I live on a military base and we’re not supposed to get advertisements. So when I got one for “Victory Baptist Church”… 8 in one week (I live in a building with 5 other families in stairwell and three stairwells per building, 6 buildings on our street… well, you get the picture), I was a little perturbed. I mean COME ON! So, I wrote a not really nice but frustrated note telling them to note the “No adverts” sticker on our mailbox and don’t they have places to spend their money elsewhere other than spamming us?

So the pastor wrote me back, telling me what business was it, if I didn’t want it, I could just throw it away and he was doing the lord’s work etc and quoted scripture at me.

I wrote back saying couldn’t he offer other things to the poor guys (I quoted “feed my sheep”) back and asked him, this time apologizing for my earlier rudeness, if I were wrong about what was going on.

He writes back (beware long):

Dear Anne Sires;

Yes, your comments were wrong.

1). We do feed singles that want to come and we do have what we call a benevolence fund to help those in need, as the need arises.

2). Feeding the sheep (In the Bible) is referring to preaching and teaching the Word of God (As the bread of life and water of life), not to feeding physical food.

3). It would be great if we could go house to house and preach the word; but that has been quite impossible since 911: because of security concerns we have been asked not to do this; if others are being allowed to do this, please let me know and we will begin to do so again; but, thus far, we have chosen to cause as little disturbance as possible. We do walk about and talk with any who will listen; we do love our neighbor, the Bible way, and therefore we are willing to go ourselves and pay to send others to reach around the world with the only way of salvation: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. (“Ye must be born again”).

4). I must say that I am somewhat perplexed as to why this churches money and how we spend it is of such great concern to you (As evidenced by this being a very prominent sore spot with you in both e-mails). We do not ask for an accounting of your finances or the finances of any other church, we do not want your money or the money of any other church, and all of the money that we do have comes totally from the freewill tithes and offerings of our membership. We do not have bake sales, rummage sales, or garage sales and we do not take or receive any public funding, or Chapel funding of any kind. If you are a member of a Church, you may well concern yourself with ****that ****churches finances.

.
 
As Bible Based, Born Again Christians: we are more concerned, as is the Saviour, to know if our neighbor, co-worker, friends and family are saved and on their way to heaven: (Luke 19:10) “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Mark 16:15-16) “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

******* If your concern for our finances stems from you having a need that no one has helped with; please, let me know and I will bring it before the Church and see what we can do to help.****

5). I don’t know why there would be so many fliers in such a short period of time, we pass them out once a month; perhaps one of our people became zealous and did it on their own; I will not condemn them for that. If you had a “Keine Werbung” sign on your box, I apologize; but, again, we are human and I will remind our people, once again, to look for that sign.

(Psalms 119:165) “Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.”

6). 87% Religious? That would mean something if being religious could save you from sin, which it can not. (Titus 3:5) “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Roman 10:9) “…If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” ).

To the religious crowd Jesus said: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”. By the way, he was talking to a group of people that thought doing outwardly good works would get them to heaven; he also said of those of people: (Matthew 7:22-23) “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
 
sires6 said:
Ok, so I got annoyed. You see, I live on a military base and we’re not supposed to get advertisements. So when I got one for “Victory Baptist Church”… 8 in one week (I live in a building with 5 other families in stairwell and three stairwells per building, 6 buildings on our street… well, you get the picture), I was a little perturbed. I mean COME ON! So, I wrote a not really nice but frustrated note telling them to note the “No adverts” sticker on our mailbox and don’t they have places to spend their money elsewhere other than spamming us?

So the pastor wrote me back, telling me what business was it, if I didn’t want it, I could just throw it away and he was doing the lord’s work etc and quoted scripture at me.

I wrote back saying couldn’t he offer other things to the poor guys (I quoted “feed my sheep”) back and asked him, this time apologizing for my earlier rudeness, if I were wrong about what was going on.

He writes back (beware long):

Dear Anne Sires;

Yes, your comments were wrong.

1). We do feed singles that want to come and we do have what we call a benevolence fund to help those in need, as the need arises.

2). Feeding the sheep (In the Bible) is referring to preaching and teaching the Word of God (As the bread of life and water of life), not to feeding physical food.

3). It would be great if we could go house to house and preach the word; but that has been quite impossible since 911: because of security concerns we have been asked not to do this; if others are being allowed to do this, please let me know and we will begin to do so again; but, thus far, we have chosen to cause as little disturbance as possible. We do walk about and talk with any who will listen; we do love our neighbor, the Bible way, and therefore we are willing to go ourselves and pay to send others to reach around the world with the only way of salvation: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. (“Ye must be born again”).

4). I must say that I am somewhat perplexed as to why this churches money and how we spend it is of such great concern to you (As evidenced by this being a very prominent sore spot with you in both e-mails). We do not ask for an accounting of your finances or the finances of any other church, we do not want your money or the money of any other church, and all of the money that we do have comes totally from the freewill tithes and offerings of our membership. We do not have bake sales, rummage sales, or garage sales and we do not take or receive any public funding, or Chapel funding of any kind. If you are a member of a Church, you may well concern yourself with ****that ****churches finances.

.
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It might be effective to just tell him that there is a rule on the base against advertising. Or alternatively, report the problem to the place that is in charge of enforcing rules on the base and let them take the matter up with the church.
 
7). 50% Christian? That would be great if you could be a Christian without repenting of your sins and just believe in Jesus; which you can not (Luke 13:2-5) “And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Being a Christian is not a matter of doing good works in Jesus name (As mentioned in # 6 above), being a Christian is not a matter of Church affiliation, being a Christian is not a matter of turning over a new leaf; but of repenting and believing by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and being a Christian is not a matter of physical parentage (You are not born a Christian); you must be “Born Again” to be a Christian “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

I know for a fact that there is no where near 50% of the people in the military that would claim to be “Born Again” Christians (Perhaps 10% at most, and from 30 years of experience in the military and ministry to the military I would say it is much less) and less then 5% of the worlds population claim to be “Born Again” Christians. (Mat. 7:13-14) “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

It is sorely evident from the prevalence of drug, alcohol and pornography use; the ungodly state of dress practiced by most, and the vile language that spews from nearly every tongue you hear in the Stuttgart military community, that your figures are totally inaccurate to say the least: If this community were comprised of 50% Christians (Of course we are speaking of “Born again” Bible based Christians) Churches of all denominations and the Chapels would be full to overflowing and AAFES would go out of business; as two of their top three money makers are Booze and Porn. What, you want a Bible? You can find the few they have wedged between the many Witchcraft and New Age books and materials for their practice.

8). I am sorry for any inconvenience from receiving a flier; but, if we are to remain free then we must allow everyone the same freedoms or you may be targeted next if some one doesn’t agree with what you are doing: I have the freedom (So far) to pass out fliers and practice my faith as I see fit; you do the same and be happy, that as Americans, small annoyances are all we have to endure and not, as many of our forefathers in the faith did, imprisonment or death (So far).
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9) Unlike yourself, there have been many over the years who appreciate our efforts as evidenced by the souls that have been saved, families that have been salvaged, lives that have been changed to the GLORY OF GOD through our efforts. In order to do the good that we desire to do, we must make contact with these people: one of the ****many**** ways we do that is with informational fliers; as well as, one on one contact and our web site. We will continue to do, what we have been lead to do, so long as we continue to see fruit from those labors
 
Turn over copies of EVERYTHING to your housing office/officer.

Don’t even hesitate.
 
10). The only “Accolades” that we look for are to hear: (Matthew 25:21) “… Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
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11). You would gladly give to help returning troops take a vacation to unwind after deployment? How much would you give to see them, or someone in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else in the world, hear the Word of God preached and thus have the opportunity to be saved by the grace of God? (Romans 10:17) “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

You speak of “Trips”, “Boy Scouts”, “Amusement parks” or other worldly organizations and entertainment; where are these things ever commended in the Word of God (The Bible)? We have chosen as a church, lead by God’s Word and the Spirit of God that indwells us, to spend the Lord’s money, given by his people, here in this place: To reach the world and this community for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; doing ****Bible based works**** and sending missionaries to preach the Word where we can not.

See our web site and read what we believe as a church and some of the mission works that we support at:

******* If you, or someone you know, truly has a need of food, Bible counseling, someone to speak to concerning stresses and distress that they are facing: please, let me know, and we, as a church, will see what the Lord would have us to do in meeting that need: If you or they want our help it is available.****

If you truly want to learn what the Bible says that we should be doing; please, come and hear the preaching and teaching of God’s Word and “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Tim. 2:15)

Again, I will inform our people, once again, to be watchful for the sign on the Mail Box “Keine Werbung”; thank you for your heads up on this matter. 

Again, I am sorry for your inconvenience. You are in our prayers.

Your servant in Christ;
Rev. *** T*******
Victory Baptist Church
 
PS - I’m amazed these folks are even allowed on base to do their “deliveries.”
 
I’d send a note saying “Depart, ye Protestants,” and report them to the proper authority.
 
Whatever you do, please be charitable. If you are less than charitable in your response, and he comes to learn that you are Catholic, it will simply reinforce in his mind all of his preconceived notions that he almost certainly holds about us.

These people can be annoying. When we moved to an area with many born again Christians when I was about 12, I couldn’t believe how many times I was told that I and my family were going to Hell. There was one woman across the street who actively tried to lure me away from the Catholic church and gave me a book about someone who “escaped” the Catholic church. These people weren’t evil, they were doing what they thought was right. I would argue against the circularity of the “once saved, always saved” stuff, and the dubiousness of these dramatic, emotional (charismatic?) experiences that I sometimes saw. But I probably would have done more good by just showing an example of the charity that a Catholic can exhibit.

Think about why these protestants evangelize the way they do, and why they can be so successful. In part, it is because our Church is utterly failing in its mission to evangelize and catechize. I was listening to an audio presentation by Peter Kreeft on ecumenism. He made an argument that God is allowing the success of protestant evangelization because He is a loving God, and imperfect truths are better than no truths. Is this protestant doing more good or more harm? This imperfect Christian brother is certainly teaching some errors, but it might be better for people than the deafening silence of our own Church.

So, whatever you do, evangelize right back with charity. You never know what sort of seed you might plant.
 
They are doing what we should be doing. I agree with his reasoning and his motives and admire the zeal of the church members. Would you be so annoyed if you agreed with what they believe? If you think they are spreading error and you can stop that by asking that the ban on advertisements be upheld, go to it. But really, don’t you think their enthusiasm to spread the gospel is great?
 
if adverts are placed by individuals in mail boxes (w/o proper postage and going thru the system) it violates postal regulations, both USPS and those of the military, so report it to the postmaster. if they want to evangelize they will have to find a legal way of doing it
 
I would think at this time this “minister” wants to be “martyred”. Then he can get his 15 minutes of fame on tv, radio or even end up on a James Dobson program.

Personally I think that it has been handled poorly by the OP. Ignoring these little men seems to work best. He can waste his time and money sending you paper and writing your letters. But the best thing at this time is to apologize for wasting his time. You completely turn the conflict around then and you make it look like you are the one with mercy.
 
I know where he is coming from. i have done lots of flyering for several causes, including the get-saved type, and the harder and more opposed it is the more necessary it feels.
If he believes he is doing the best thing and his duty, he will not consider stopping regardless of consequences and will definitely see continuing, redoubling his efforts in response to opposition indeed, as his only responsible course. He will likely agonize that he isn’t taking a strong enough stand and possibly failing this test of his dedication, in fact. What you are looking at is an interpretation of the need for evangelism in a strict no-ifs-ands-or-buts way. He feels the inconvenience of reading a flyer is far outweighed by the gift he is certain he is giving. he has told you just how his reasoning works. I like to respond in kind. Tell him your own reasoning, point by point. The rule against advertising is meaningless to him, as he has made clear. He probably likens it to a sign saying “No Swimming” as it may apply to someone rescuing drowning children from the sea: irrelevant under the circumstances. This is a great sharing opportunity for you. Answer everything he has said point-for-point with evidence and make copies to post in the lobby of his church if you can. Don’t rely on arguments he has already answered. If you perceive unwanted advertising as extremely rude and he has said he disagrees, he will not alter any of his views or ways based on any argument that presupposes that unwanted advertising is inexcusably rude.
The disconnect between you seems to be mostly the issue of the need for and efficacy of his way of trying to save souls. As this is all he cares about (which I respect a great deal), address it. First, soften him up by acknowledging that his group does feed people and do other good deeds and is trying hard to spend their time and money doing the best thing they can for others, whom they don’t even know, at personal risk. This will help establish you to him as someone who pays attention, is fair, and has the same values he has. Then explain why you believe his ads are ineffective. Then go into the Biblical arguments against OSAS and discuss what born again means to you. Draw him out over a period if necessary. You might have a much bigger effect than just getting rid of some slick paper.🙂
 
Is not a big issue to me…if you do not want to be preach…simply tell them…you are a christ believer too…perhaps they should approach non believers…that’s it…don’t have to stir up a big hoha about it
 
I get similarly annoyed when Christians of ANY denomination proselytize me, esp. when they don’t stop after one attempt.

After a while, it starts to get like the Vonage commercials when they play them over and over and over…or the HeadOn commercials, when they play them over and over and over…

After a while it becomes like Chinese water torture. I just wish Christians of ALL denominations recognized this.
 
HashemEchad said:
I get similarly annoyed when Christians of ANY denomination proselytize me, esp. when they don’t stop after one attempt.

After a while, it starts to get like the Vonage commercials when they play them over and over and over…or the HeadOn commercials, when they play them over and over and over…

After a while it becomes like Chinese water torture. I just wish Christians of ALL denominations recognized this.
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Speaking for myself as a Catholic, that’s my response to Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons who arrive at the front door. My response (hope it’s not actually rude): “I’m Catholic. I’m not interested in hearing about your beliefs.”
 
catharina said:
Speaking for myself as a Catholic, that’s my response to Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons who arrive at the front door. My response (hope it’s not actually rude): “I’m Catholic. I’m not interested in hearing about your beliefs.”
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If I have the time, I will sometimes “get into it” with the JWs, but its a no-win battle because they are specially trained not to listen to anything you say, and to bring the discussion back around to their beliefs.

My favorite argument with them centers around the true Name of God, which they say is “Jehovah” (most scholars, Jewish and Christians, now recognize that “Jehovah” is a mistranslation based on scholars who did not understand the proper method of Hebrew vowelization.)

BTW one word of advice to those who sometimes have to confront Protestant missionaries: do not volunteer that you are Catholic; for certain missionaries (JWs, Chick-types) this is waving a red flag in front of a bull. Ditto for saying you are Jewish (if you are.)

Jews and Catholics are two groups they want to convert more than anyone, and they seem to think they will be guaranteed a seat in Heaven if they do it. This is why, when dealing with Christians that are missionary-minded, I will not usually volunteer that I am Jewish unless it is relevant to the dicussion at hand, or if I need to mention it to explain something. I’ll usually just say I’m “not a Christian”.
 
HashemEchad said:
If I have the time, I will sometimes “get into it” with the JWs, but its a no-win battle because they are specially trained not to listen to anything you say, and to bring the discussion back around to their beliefs.

My favorite argument with them centers around the true Name of God, which they say is “Jehovah” (most scholars, Jewish and Christians, now recognize that “Jehovah” is a mistranslation based on scholars who did not understand the proper method of Hebrew vowelization.)

BTW one word of advice to those who sometimes have to confront Protestant missionaries: do not volunteer that you are Catholic; for certain missionaries (JWs, Chick-types) this is waving a red flag in front of a bull. Ditto for saying you are Jewish (if you are.)

Jews and Catholics are two groups they want to convert more than anyone, and they seem to think they will be guaranteed a seat in Heaven if they do it. This is why, when dealing with Christians that are missionary-minded, I will not usually volunteer that I am Jewish unless it is relevant to the dicussion at hand, or if I need to mention it to explain something. I’ll usually just say I’m “not a Christian”.
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Sounds like good advice for many.

My growing up in Chicago must have added some power to my delivery of “I’m Catholic” because saying so alwayas adds a dimension of ‘this case is closed, this converstaion has ended, Katie has barred the door,’ etc. It works fine for me in CA too!
 
catharina said:
Sounds like good advice for many.

My growing up in Chicago must have added some power to my delivery of “I’m Catholic” because saying so alwayas adds a dimension of ‘this case is closed, this converstaion has ended, Katie has barred the door,’ etc. It works fine for me in CA too!
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I haven’t seen any JW or Chick-types lately but I get off the hook a tiny bit more quickly when the Mormons come to the door. I just say “I’m Catholic” and they go away, after a brief exchange of pleasantries (“have a nice day” or the like.) I don’t why it works, but it does. 🙂
 
catharina said:
Sounds like good advice for many.

My growing up in Chicago must have added some power to my delivery of “I’m Catholic” because saying so alwayas adds a dimension of ‘this case is closed, this converstaion has ended, Katie has barred the door,’ etc. It works fine for me in CA too!
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I’ve known Catholics it did not work for, so you’ve been very fortunate! 🙂

Most Catholics are not as well-versed in their beliefs (esp. as they relate to the Bible) as those on this forum, so for them perhaps the best thing is not to mention what they are. Ditto for most Jews (like many of the Catholics on this forum who are knowledgeable, I’m one of the Jewish oddballs along those lines!)

Have you ever noticed that Protestant missionaries to Catholics usually are full of hatred for Catholicism (and I suspect, of Catholics too), yet the Protestant missionaries to Jews never seem to hate Judaism or Jews? Is this due to their belief in the Genesis Scripture, “I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you”? (sorry, I’m starting to digress again!)
 
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