Do Jews acknowledge that Jesus did call Himself by the same divine name revealed to Moses?

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inJESUS said:
if a first century Jew says he is the Alpha and Omega, what do you understand from his statement?
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The original question was do Jews believe… not 1st century Jews. And wasn’t that a quote from Revelation? Is there any evidence, even in the Gospels, that Jesus said this to any Jews? If so, was it a crowd? How many?
 
Valke2 said:
The original question was do Jews believe… not 1st century Jews. And wasn’t that a quote from Revelation? Is there any evidence, even in the Gospels, that Jesus said this to any Jews? If so, was it a crowd? How many?
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but my question isn’t about proving if He said it or not…the question is about what it means to a Jew .

It’s like Jesus telling His disciples that He will give them wisdom in times of trouble. Do you believe that humans can give wisdom?
 
inJESUS said:
but my question isn’t about proving if He said it or not…the question is about what it means to a Jew .

It’s like Jesus telling His disciples that He will give them wisdom in times of trouble. Do you believe that humans can give wisdom?
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I would think it would mean a reference to God. Especially today. It’s based, I believe on the Hebrew word “Emet”. It means Truth and is one of the names of God. It consists of the first, middle and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
(according to wikipedia)
 
Valke2 said:
I would think it would mean a reference to God. Especially today. It’s based, I believe on the Hebrew word “Emet”. It means Truth and is one of the names of God. It consists of the first, middle and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
(according to wikipedia)
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sorry i didn’t understand it. Someone saying I AM the Alpha and Omega…does it mean He is not talking about himself?

what about giving wisdom to people?
 
inJESUS said:
sorry i didn’t understand it. Someone saying I AM the Alpha and Omega…does it mean He is not talking about himself?

what about giving wisdom to people?
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It would sound to me like he is talking about himself.
 
inJESUS said:
you totally missed the point.You are quoting Isaiah twice. I quoted the parallelism in wording and theme between the book of Isaiah and the gospel of John. It is a general theme that goes beyond what you are presenting. Check the quotes:

From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, **so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am **
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Bleh. You totally missed what he is saying because you take it out of context.

John 13:18-19 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Is Jesus saying he is God here? Absolutely not, he is saying that he is the man in Psalms who is prophesied to have a friend that doublecrosses him, the friend being Judas.

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Are you just cutting all this out by accident, or is it on purpose? Either way Jesus is not saying I AM THAT I AM at all here. Anytime someone says I AM or I AM HE doesn’t mean they are saying they are God.

I don’t know how to make it any clearer.
 
I do understand your point…but you are not seeing things as a whole…i tried to quote them to make you see a general echo in both OT and NT, not only with John, but acts as well…and you do believe these were inspired people and they knew the scriptures…i will not quote thm all again…try to understand that am talking beyond immediate context , about echoing of themes and wording. So you can re-read them all again and see what am talking about and answer me as why will inspired and knowledgeable people write a parallelism between the sayings of God in the OT about Himself and the sayings of Jesus in the NT about Himself if they had in mind a totally opposed meaning?
 
inJESUS said:
I do understand your point…but you are not seeing things as a whole…i tried to quote them to make you see a general echo in both OT and NT, not only with John, but acts as well…and you do believe these were inspired people and they knew the scriptures…i will not quote thm all again…try to understand that am talking beyond immediate context , about echoing of themes and wording. So you can re-read them all again and see what am talking about and answer me as why will inspired and knowledgeable people write a parallelism between the sayings of God in the OT about Himself and the sayings of Jesus in the NT about Himself if they had in mind a totally opposed meaning?
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Why do you keep using John 13:19 as an example if you understand that he is not saying he is God? There is no theme or similarity with Jesus saying he is the man whose friend turns on him, compared to God saying He is God. Two different things.

That you keep reposting it over and over comparing it to God saying something entirely different leaves me no choice but to think you are either incapable of understanding or are being intentionally misleading.

Either way, to go on explaining those other verses is pointless if you aren’t even going to acknowledge that using John 13:19 as an I AM GOD statement is an error. Especially since we just discussed this about Judas lifting his heel against Jesus only a few weeks ago, now you repeat it all over again.

So forget it, if someone else wants to talk about it I’ll be around.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Either way, to go on explaining those other verses is pointless if you aren’t even going to acknowledge that using John 13:19 as an I AM GOD statement is an error. Especially since we just discussed this about Judas lifting his heel against Jesus only a few weeks ago, now you repeat it all over again.
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inJESUS said:
a sentence repeated dozens of times in the OT about only God, and here John is using the same sentence " i do this so that you believe that I AM…"
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Again no, in John 13:19 Jesus is saying I AM HE, the guy in Psalms with the bad friend. Nothing to do with saying he is God.

If someone asked him “Are you a carpenter?” and Jesus said “I BUILT THIS TABLE SO YOU KNOW I AM” this doesn’t mean Jesus is declaring himself to be God, but a carpenter. This is the mistake you are making with John 13:19, and the others which maybe I will address if you can get past this one.
 
Valke2 said:
I don’t know if that’s the case. I can’t imagine a religious jewish family being happy about a convert to Islam. If it were the case, it may be that far more Jews have been killed in the name of Jesus than of Mohammed.

The short answer is that while we may believe that Jesus never said he was God, the Church and Christians for the last 2000 years believe otherwise.

Nobody likes it when their children abandon their faith.
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I never said it’s not sad for Jewish families when they become Muslims, Buddhists, or atheists. But from things Jewish I read it certainly sounds converting to Christianity to Jews is even worse, that’s all!
 
Kaninchen said:
If you look back, you’ll see that I said I’m interested in the consequences of what Christians believe.

I also have spent (and do spend) a fair amount of time in countries that are ‘culturally Catholic’.

I’m in this thread because I looked in on ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, saw a question directed at Jews and wanted to give the op a straight, if not exactly diplomatic, answer. I’ve spent no time discussing Catholicism, I’ve just been carrying on the theme of my earlier replies.
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It’s O.K. by me, Kaninchen. Please keep on. I certainly want you to be honest, even though I’m not a Danny Saunders (in Chaim Potok’s The Chosen)!!
 
Lapell said:
That’s one I haven’t read. What did he say?
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Bar Kokhba led a revolt against the Romans in 132 CE. He was acclaimed or claimed to be Messiah . His revolt established a Jewish state – for two years. Than the Romans crushed him. Estimates put the Jewish death toll at 585,000. The Talmud states it was in the millions. The Jews were barred from Jerusalem. Reading from the Torah was prohibited. Teaching Torah was Prohibited. Rabbi Akiva, who ignored this prohibitions had his skin torn off and was burned alive. He died saying the Shema. Almost all Jews were killed, sold into slavery or exiled.

It is against this background that comments about Jews barring Christians from synagouge should be taken into account. Which I believe was Kannichan’s point.
 
Well, for us Catholics and other Christians, it’s Holy Thursday and the Paschal Triduum (that is, “three-days”, even though here, for once, we follow the Jewish day “there was a night, and there was a morning”) is here. So, Happy Resurrection Day in advance!
And to the Jewish people… is Passover this month or the next? Anyhow, whenever it is, have a real good Passover period then!
If it’s Purim today, well, I suppose the Megillah of Esther has already been read, but still have good celebrations if it’s today!
may your God bless you and keep you, may He reveal His Countenance to you, may His Face shine upon you, and may He bring you His Peace! Amen!
And to the rest of you, may God bless you all, whoever you are and reveal Himself to each one of you. Bye now, and God love you!
 
Valke2 said:
Bar Kokhba led a revolt against the Romans in 132 CE. He was acclaimed or claimed to be Messiah . His revolt established a Jewish state – for two years. Than the Romans crushed him. Estimates put the Jewish death toll at 585,000. The Talmud states it was in the millions. The Jews were barred from Jerusalem. Reading from the Torah was prohibited. Teaching Torah was Prohibited. Rabbi Akiva, who ignored this prohibitions had his skin torn off and was burned alive. He died saying the Shema. Almost all Jews were killed, sold into slavery or exiled.

It is against this background that comments about Jews barring Christians from synagouge should be taken into account. Which I believe was Kannichan’s point.
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Ah yes! I remember I heard something to that effect. Christians were invited to take part in the revolt but they refused, I think they thought it would not be good according to the Gospel to do so, anyhow, I believe it did not help! The fact that this new way was soon open to non-Jews may have severed the way the Jews viewed Jesus’ disciples even before, though. So maybe they were viewed then as a possible threat in that they might desecrate the Temple and the synagogues. Then the Jewish authorities’ decree would be rather understandable. This would be likely, would it not? And from the point of view of the Jewish authorities, if I had been one of them I probably would have done the same thing.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Again no, in John 13:19 Jesus is saying I AM HE, the guy in Psalms with the bad friend. Nothing to do with saying he is God.

nobody asked Jesus if He is x and y so the I AM is not an answer to a question but a statement of identity. He says “unless you believe that I AM”, “you will then believe that I AM”, “in order to believe that I AM”…and you asked I AM what? the answer is as important as the OT deity style of speach that John is using …couldn’t he have used a different style of speech? and do not forget that the first sentence John wrote " in the beginning was the Word", and the same John wrote that the Word is the Alpha and Omega ( = in the beginning)…so if John is an inspired author who had a totally opposite idea in mind ( that Jesus is a mere human) then why do we read the same deity style of speech in addition to the same words of Isaiah regarding the Alpha and Omega, the Creator ecc? i am stressing the general style of speach in John’s gospel : is there a message as to why John uses the deity style of speech in addition to saying , as Isaiah, that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Creator? do you think these would drop on dead ears to Jews or is there a message?

yes go ahead pls and assess the argument as a whole, including all the passages i quoted from John, Isaiah and Acts and explain to me how all happen to echo what God says about Himself in the OT yet the message is the opposite.
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inJESUS said:
nobody asked Jesus if He is x and y so the I AM is not an answer to a question but a statement of identity. He says “unless you believe that I AM”, “you will then believe that I AM”, “in order to believe that I AM”…and you asked I AM what?
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I AM THE MAN WITH A BAD FRIEND PROPHESIED IN PSALMS!

John 13:18-19 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Arghh

Why do you keep comparing this to God saying I AM GOD when it has nothing to do with saying that? Are you stuck? :hypno:

I think now you are just messing around, no one can be that unable to comprehend something so simple. So ignore you go.
 
Fine…you don’t get what am saying or at least you don’t want to but fine…assess the whole quotes then…the Alpha and Omega, Creator …the whole package 🙂
 
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