Do Jews need to covert to be saved?

[catholiconce]

You might try and read all of Nostra Aetate. Try #4, second paragraph:

Concluded sounds an awful lot like “the Covenant ended”…

What is the point in this thread ? Is it just to stir up trouble? Why ask questions such as " Do Jews need to Convert to be saved?" Convert to what? Metrics? From a fraction to a Decimal? To Christians? Why does everybody according to Roman Catholics need to Be Roman Catholic? There is Salvation outside the RCC. Where does it say that only catholic have Salvation. In order to have Salvation one must be in Full Comunion with God here on earth and we will have Eternal life. Where is it written that one must be Roman Catholic to be in Full comunion with God. What because Jesus gave peter the Keys to the Kingdome. No man gets to the father but through the Son of God Not through the Roman Catholics Pope.

 

[EasterJoy]

What is the point in this thread ? Is it just to stir up trouble? Why ask questions such as " Do Jews need to Convert to be saved?" Convert to what? Metrics? From a fraction to a Decimal? To Christians? Why does everybody according to Roman Catholics need to Be Roman Catholic? There is Salvation outside the RCC. Where does it say that only catholic have Salvation. In order to have Salvation one must be in Full Comunion with God here on earth and we will have Eternal life. Where is it written that one must be Roman Catholic to be in Full comunion with God. What because Jesus gave peter the Keys to the Kingdome. No man gets to the father but through the Son of God Not through the Roman Catholics Pope.

There are Catholics who teach “no salvation except via the Pope.” The Pope does not teach that. The Pope teaches that God may save anyone He chooses, by means we may or may not understand, and that He can be trusted to do so without violating any of the precepts He has revealed to the Church.

If someone wants to say that Jews who have been given the means to understand the Gospel and accept it should not be given a false sense of security about the necessity that they do so, and as soon as it is within their ability to do so, I can agree with that. No one who has been given the means to accept Christ should be encouraged to do anything other than accept Christ. Even if they were to be saved in the end, we would be depriving them of union with Our Lord that could have been theirs sooner. That alone would be a grave disservice on our part, for which we would be culpable.

If, however, anyone wants to reply that God cannot save anyone except under circumstances that we define, if you are arguing that you have a sure knowledge of who it is God will not save, and that our Holy Father’s currently-stated interpretation of prior Church councils on that point–which we may suppose he must have scanned over a few times in their original Latin–is either defective or deceptive, then there is nothing I can do. If you won’t believe the Pope is knowledgeable or trustworthy enough to teach you matters of faith or want to believe that your understanding of the nature of the pronouncements of his predecessors is superior to his in both accuracy and authority, then there is not a chance you’ll believe me.

I only warn you this: God alone will judge. Do not walk that ground, lest you be lost yourself.
I would be doing you a grave disservice myself if I did not remind you of that danger, of which we should all be aware by now.

 

[DustinsDad]

Or else “no salvation outside the Church” must have a different meaning than you give it.

Then demonstrate where my unerstanding as laid out explicitly by the Church in said infallible proclamations is wrong. Wanting it to be wrong does not make it wrong.

I ask, then, has God rejected his peope? Of course not!

“Of course not” is right - He became man* for his people*, died on the cross for his people, rose on the third day* for his people,* established the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church* for his people*. His people have a choice to make - accept Him or reject Him. Important choice to make with eternal consequenses. And one only has this life to make it. At death, the choice is fixed for eternity.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[palmas85]

Or else “no salvation outside the Church” must have a different meaning than you give it.

When Paul wrote that all of Israel will be saved, he did not say that any would be saved outside of Christ. That passage makes it quite clear, as does all Paul ever wrote, that there is no salvation except in Christ.

When the Church teaches that the ancient Covenant was concluded, it means that the old order of worship was rendered obsolete. The imperfect sacrifice of the Temple, which had to be offered again and again, passed away, and the one perfect sacrifice of which Christ is both Victim and High Priest took its place. This is the sacrifice by which all are saved, both Jew and Gentile.

I do not know how much more emphatic St. Paul could have been: I ask, then, has God rejected his peope? Of course not!.

No but Paul also said that ALL must accept Christ did he not?

 

[EasterJoy]

Then demonstrate where my unerstanding as laid out explicitly by the Church in said infallible proclamations is wrong. Wanting it to be wrong does not make it wrong.

“Of course not” is right - He became man* for his people*, died on the cross for his people, rose on the third day* for his people,* established the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church* for his people*. His people have a choice to make - accept Him or reject Him. Important choice to make with eternal consequenses. And one only has this life to make it. At death, the choice is fixed for eternity.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

You are in a position to dictate with certainty whom God may accept and who God must find unacceptable? Are you are in a position to judge any soul’s attitude at death? Are you the arbiter of “what counts” as having accepted the will of God and what does not?

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Who is in and who is outside of the Church, however, is reserved for the judgement of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If Jesus decides that someone is in communion with Him, then, I don’t imagine that a Pope will stand up and say, “WELL! He’s not in communion with ME!” instead of “Whom You accept, Lord, I welcome!” How about you? So, you see, the Popes may not have realized how many more people were in communion with them than they knew. Being infallible doesn’t make you omniscient. This is why the CCC teaches compassionately on the topic of who is bound or loosed in Heaven. Obedience demands this.

To some who will protest, “When did we ever do these things for you, Lord?” the Lord will insist that they have. To some who will protest, “Lord, Lord”, having presumed themselves “in”, He said very clearly that He will say, “I never knew you.” That alone should give some pause in this debate.

 

[stmaria]

You are in a position to dictate with certainty whom God may accept and who God must find unacceptable? Are you are in a position to judge any soul’s attitude at death? Are you the arbiter of “what counts” as having accepted the will of God and what does not?

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Who is in and who is outside of the Church, however, is reserved for the judgement of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If Jesus decides that someone is in communion with Him, then, I don’t imagine that a Pope will stand up and say, “WELL! He’s not in communion with ME!” instead of “Whom You accept, Lord, I welcome!” How about you? So, you see, the Popes may not have realized how many more people were in communion with them than they knew. Being infallible doesn’t make you omniscient. This is why the CCC teaches compassionately on the topic of who is bound or loosed in Heaven. Obedience demands this.

To some who will protest, “When did we ever do these things for you, Lord?” the Lord will insist that they have. To some who will protest, “Lord, Lord”, having presumed themselves “in”, He said very clearly that He will say, “I never knew you.” That alone should give some pause in this debate.

I am confuse as to exactly what you are saying. The title of this thread is" Do Jews need to covert to be saved?" Is your belief a yes they do or no they don’t? Or is it “its not my concern ?”

 

[DustinsDad]

…So, you see, the Popes may not have realized how many more people were in communion with them than they knew. Being infallible doesn’t make you omniscient…

Okay - so you actually think the Church was wrong - that infallibly proclaimed dogma needs to be overturned and “corrected.” Fine - just say so. Rarely do we hear modernists being so, well, honest.

DD

 

[EasterJoy]

I am confuse as to exactly what you are saying. The title of this thread is" Do Jews need to covert to be saved?" Is your belief a yes they do or no they don’t? Or is it “its not my concern ?”

Okay - so you actually think the Church was wrong - that infallibly proclaimed dogma needs to be overturned and “corrected.” Fine - just say so. Rarely do we hear modernists being so, well, honest.

DD

I did not say the teaching was wrong or that there is salvation outside the Church. Every knee is going to bend, every tongue is going to confess. For those who love the truth, including the truth about what the Church is and has always been, and who recognize and admit the truth of what they are, who accept their need for salvation, there will be life eternal. For those for whom the truth is anathema, the truth will nevertheless reign. There is not going to be a corner of heaven reserved for those for whom it is a punishment to utter “Jesus Christ is Lord!” or bliss for anyone who disdains the wedding feast of the Lamb, a feast at which the Bride shall be His Church.

I am saying that God has open to Him a moment between the last sentiment you know about and His final judgement, that the moment of death for the purpose of the final judgement of each soul is not yours to define. I am saying that although you may say you know the disposition of a heart at death, you, without any doubt and I don’t care how many councils you think you know, do not have that knowledge. Judgement concerning who particularly will pass or not pass judgement is not yours, and it was never meant to be. Our Lord could not possibly have been more clear on that.

We who are also under judgement should dole out with the measure with which we wish to be measured. Are you so certain that there is no invincible ignorance in you, that you don’t know all the words and yet miss the point? Did the Pharisees not know all the prophesies better than you do? Yet when Jesus stood in front of them and spoke the truth, they tore their garments! It wasn’t because they didn’t know the Scriptures, the words on the page! How are you so sure you are not in any respect in the same situation? After all, how much of Paul’s writing is aimed at those Christians who misinterpret the truth? It is not blindness that condemns. It is having the blindness and yet insisting “we see”. That does not just apply to the Jews.

By what is not your concern, I mean this: it is taking the truth “there is no salvation outside the Church” combining it with “in my judgement, you are outside the Church, God is going to leave you there, and therefore you will not have salvation” that is beyond your concern. For who was more concerned about the salvation of unbelieving Jews than Paul? Who was more adamant about the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation? Who was nevertheless certain that God would not revoke His promises? Are you arguing that the Popes have reversed the teaching of the Apostles, as handed down in inspired Scripture? God forbid!

Anyone, Jew or Gentile, who sees the truth of Christ should not delay in accepting it. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one should be kept from believing in Him or encouraged to remain afar. A Jew who cannot accept Christ, however, should be encouraged to at least remain faithful to the God of Abraham, for He is the God who saves, in whom we believe, the God who will not abandon His people Israel. How God plans to do accomplish Paul’s inspired assertion that “all Israel will be saved” in the end , an assertion Paul made referring in particular to the Jews made blind to the Gospel, is God’s perogative. All I know is this: Throughout the Scriptures, God has said He will do it. Therefore, God will do it.

 

[EasterJoy]

No but Paul also said that ALL must accept Christ did he not?

Yes, and Paul also said, in writing inspired Scripture, “all Israel will be saved.” These cannot be mutually exclusive truths. They must both be true. Better that we say both are true, though we don’t know how, than that we say, “I can’t see how both can be true, therefore one must be false.”

I have explained how I think it is that both are true. My explanation may be totally wrong, but that both are indeed true is beyond question.

Again, I am not saying it is impossible to reject the Gospel. I guess I am saying that, in the end when the truth is revealed, all Israel will proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[DustinsDad]

…I am saying that God has open to Him a moment between the last sentiment you know about and His final judgement, that the moment of death for the purpose of the final judgement of each soul is not yours to define.

We’re speaking generally here…do you agree with the Church that your eternal desitiny, your eternal choice, is fixed at death?

…I am saying that although you may say you know the disposition of a heart at death, you, without any doubt and I don’t care how many councils you think you know, do not have that knowledge. Judgement concerning who particularly will pass or not pass judgement is not yours, and it was never meant to be. Our Lord could not possibly have been more clear on that.

Again, we’re speaking in general terms here - no one is trying to judge some specific infividual here. This is such an overreaction, such an emotional landmine of an uncalled for response, I am forced to think something hit a nerve.

You know, Our Lord did kind of tell us “how to get to Heaven”, you know, what to believe, etc. It’s not like we have to wing it down here for crying out loud.

…We who are also under judgement should dole out with the measure with which we wish to be measured.

I want the truth of the Catholic Faith “doled out” to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I pray to have Jesus Christ as my Savior, whom I am unable to withstand as my Judge.

…Are you so certain that there is no invincible ignorance in you, that you don’t know all the words and yet miss the point?

Take what I say with a grain of salt. Hold it up to what the Church has consistantly taught for 2000 years…and listen to Her.

…Did the Pharisees not know all the prophesies better than you do? Yet when Jesus stood in front of them and spoke the truth, they tore their garments! It wasn’t because they didn’t know the Scriptures, the words on the page! How are you so sure you are not in any respect in the same situation? After all, how much of Paul’s writing is aimed at those Christians who misinterpret the truth?

That’s why Christ established the Church. Besides, you are starting to sound agnostic…

…A Jew who cannot accept Christ, however, should be encouraged to at least remain faithful to the God of Abraham

Any Jew who “cannot” accept Christ should be encouraged to do so. He* is* the God of Abraham.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

Yes, and Paul also said, in writing inspired Scripture, “all Israel will be saved.” …

You’re taking this to mean every Jew who ever lived or ever will live is bizzare. I’m tempted to think you aren’t being serious.

If you are serious, can you quote me one Church father, one teaching of the Church, that actually agrees with your interpretation.

DD

 

[HashemEchad]

You’re taking this to mean every Jew who ever lived or ever will live is bizzare. I’m tempted to think you aren’t being serious.

If you are serious, can you quote me one Church father, one teaching of the Church, that actually agrees with your interpretation.

DD

Much of what Paul said, was taken from Jewish writings, he simply “Christianized” it.

When he said, “And so, all Israel shall be saved” (Romans), he was copying something that Jewish teaching has always said, but instead Paul applied it to Jesus.

The rabbis have always taught, “All Israel shall be saved” (Talmud), and this is based on Isaiah 45:17 which states, “israel shall be saved with an everlasting salvation”.

Paul simply copied it (Jesus also did this, he copied things previously said by rabbis before him, and without giving credit, too), and put a Christian “spin” on it.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Does a Jew who breaks the Covenant cease being a Jew? Or, in your opinion, would he still be saved as part of “all of Israel”?

 

[Valke2]

“Almighty and eternal God, who dost also not exclude from thy mercy the Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth”

My spiritual life is so bright, that I’ve got to wear shades.

 

[DustinsDad]

Much of what Paul said, was taken from Jewish writings, he simply “Christianized” it.

The Old Testament is revealed in the New - so no surprise there. And the New Testament fulfills the Old.

…The rabbis have always taught, “All Israel shall be saved” (Talmud), and this is based on Isaiah 45:17 which states, “israel shall be saved with an everlasting salvation”…

Well elaborate for me on this if you will. What is this “saving” of “all Israel” that you speak of? Seriously…

• Is it the salvation in heaven? (A Jewish poster on these boards assured me that “heaven and hell” are not concepts of his Jewish religion)
• Is it the salvation of an “earthly kingdom”?* (which seems to be the reason used to justify Our Lord’s crucifixion was that he didn’t meet this expectation)*
• And if so, then is the belief you speak of that dead Jews will rise from the dead and be a part of this earthly kingdom?
• If so, how do you account for the Jews of Jesus’ time who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead?
• If so, does this mean that Jews who reject the Jewish faith, reject God, also are “saved” in this earthly kingdom? What about unrepentant murderers, rapists, adulterers, etc.? Are they saved in this “earthly kingdom” as well?

I look forward to your response. Please provide some pertinant quotes from historical sources so as to back up your stated position.

Thank you,

And Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

You are the heretic. It would seem that you have forgotten that God is not limited by any of us.

In order for someone to be unsaved, as you prescribe, one has to be in full knowledge and then reject it. Such is not the case, and I dare say that I would never presume to know the mind of God…nor His personal conversations with anyone else…Jewish or otherwise.

Regarding the underlined part: That would be true if 1.) We came into this world justified (in the state of grace); and 2.) if heresy was the only sin that kept us out of heavent (and not also sins contrary to the other 9 commandments).

Unfortunately, we do not come into this world justified. We come into this world seperated from God. Without the theological virtue of faith, we cannot have charity (grace); and without charity we cannot be saved. That is why the Bible teaches that "without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[chrisb]

Much of what Paul said, was taken from Jewish writings, he simply “Christianized” it.

When he said, “And so, all Israel shall be saved” (Romans), he was copying something that Jewish teaching has always said, but instead Paul applied it to Jesus.

The rabbis have always taught, “All Israel shall be saved” (Talmud), and this is based on Isaiah 45:17 which states, “israel shall be saved with an everlasting salvation”.

Paul simply copied it (Jesus also did this, he copied things previously said by rabbis before him, and without giving credit, too), and put a Christian “spin” on it.

Pax et Gracia Vobiscum and Shalom HashemEchad,

If I could humbly say that St. Paul illustrates in his Epistle to the Romans of which Israel… of which Children of Abraham he is speaking… Children of Abraham ‘in faith’.

Not all whom claim to be Children of Abraham are Children ‘in faith’ and so are not to be assumed as saved by the Covenant of G-d.

Do you know which Chapters of Romans I speak of?

 

[EasterJoy]

We’re speaking generally here…do you agree with the Church that your eternal desitiny, your eternal choice, is fixed at death?

Yes. That Purgatory might be necessary to make me fit for Heaven does not change the fact that those consigned to Purgatory are nevertheless destined to the fullness of eternal life.

Again, we’re speaking in general terms here - no one is trying to judge some specific infividual here. This is such an overreaction, such an emotional landmine of an uncalled for response, I am forced to think something hit a nerve.

OK, good. Because if what you’re saying is, “If someone is in Heaven, then we know for a fact that they have accepted and proclaim in eternal joy that Jesus Christ is Lord and that they know the Church to be His Bride and have become one with us in the communion of saints, as a member of the Church Triumphant, that same Church which has the successor of Peter as His vicar on earth”, then yes, I agree with that. There isn’t a Jewish or Mormon or Catholic section of Heaven with a sign that says, “Sshh. They don’t know the rest of us are here”.

If, however, someone is saying at a funeral to the relatives, “Your beloved died a Jew (or a heretic, a suicide, a schismatic, an unrepentant adulterer, or whatever), and therefore we know they are not in Heaven and never will be”, then that person who dares to say such a thing is in heresy. That judgement is reserved for God alone. *What hits the nerve is that there are people who say things like this, under these very circumstances! *This attitude is an offense against hope, as well as an occasion of scandal, so yeah, it is a rather big deal.

Therefore, we cannot say that a Jew must be known to us to have converted in order to be saved. By God’s mercy, anyone who apparently rejected Christ in this life might have repented within that moment which is death, and therefore been forgiven. It is possible that the grace to accept the Gospel, even though the Gospel was physically heard earlier, might be withheld until that moment, for reasons known only to God. This is even true if the person is in some way culpable for their “invincible ignorance”, as long as there are mitigating circumstances that render the offense venial. I would go so far as to say we are obliged as Christians to hope for that.

 

[HashemEchad]

Traditional Judaism believes in Heaven, Hell, purgatory and also the resurrection of the dead. Whoever told you (a poster a few posts up there) that Judaism does not believe in any of the above is giving you false information.

Where do you think Christianity GOT their beliefs in Heaven, Hell, purgatory and the resurrection of the dead FROM?

In Judaism, Heaven is called the Olam Ha’Ba, or the World to Come. Hell is called Gehinnom. Purgatory is where people are purged of the guilt due to their sins, before they can enter the Olam Ha’Ba (which is why when a Jew dies, other Jews say Kaddish for their souls).

And in Judaism, the resurrection of the dead (which will happen ONLY at the End of Days and to ALL people AT ONCE), is called Techiyat ha’Meitim.

Maimonides, the greatest Jewish rabbinical commentator, said that any Jew who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead is cut off from Judaism.

 

[chrisb]

I personally believe that there is ‘ordinary’ as well as ‘extraordinary’ Grace.

You may throw stones if you wish…