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Kaninchen
Guest
It will be more the case that the consequences of Messiah turning up will be so obvious that working it all out would be academic.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
The line of David would be that identifiable group, the tribe of Judah.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
lol…I see you getting a little better.
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mark_a
Guest
Hmmmm, that sounds very familiar.
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Lev23
Guest
But yet there has been and still is a remnant of Israel(ethnic) that is God’s chosen, even in the Church.
Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Remember that and don’t become conceited about how the non-remnant are experiencing a hardening in part.
Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
I think that this statement reveals a misunderstanding of of what Rom.11 is saying
Let’s sart at the beginning
Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
What Paul is saying here is that God has not cast anyone out. He’s saying that he is a Jew (ethnic) and he is saved. The key of coarse is v.5. There is a remnant (could be Jew or Gentile) That is saved by GRACE or the unmerited gift of God in Jesus Christ. This is the only was any of us are saved. Be he Jew or Gentile and that is through the acceptance of the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
What Paul is saying here is that we have no reason to be conceited concerning our salvation, because not all of the Jews have come to Christ. God can only save as many as accept His gift.
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Lev23
Guest
The remnant St.Paul is referring to is strictly Israel. He compares how the remnant of Elijah’s time was of works and the remnant now is by grace. He goes on to mention the present hardened part of Israel, and how their transgression means riches for the gentiles, or nations. Towards the end of chapter 11, St.Paul tells how hardened Israel(“Jacob”) will have godlessness and their sins taken away from them when the deliverer comes from Zion.
When Christ comes back(the deliverer from Zion), ALL Israel will be saved.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Are you saying that people were saved differently in the old testament than in the new testament? That the Jews of the old testament saved theirselves by their own works? Kind of eliminates the need of a Savior doesn’t it? And if that is the case what do you do with Jer.31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
which says the new covenant is made with the “house of Israel”
So when He returns He is going to dispense with free will and save all of Israel whether they want to be saved or not?
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Lev23
Guest
St.Paul was talking about “works” of the law, that was given to them by God. You would of caught that if you knew I was referring to Romans 11:5-6 in my last post-
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
So are you saying that the people of the OT were saved by ““works” of the law” and people of the NT are saved by grace?
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Catherine_k
Guest
I think the concept of “saved” has evolved from the OT to the NT. Within Judaism, the concenpt of the world to come, or heaven and hell (especially within mysticism) is not nearly as clearly defined as it is within the NT. What is crucial within the OT is focussing on the here and now… working on improving behavior in this world. The concept of Tikun Olam (healing the world) is about making this world a better place Today. Heaven was expected, but you’d find out when you got there.
The messiah (Mashiach in Hebrew) was the annointed one. So, technically, David was a mashiach (annointed one) as were Saul and Solomon. The original Jewish thought at the time of the NT was that the Messah would be a great warrior and political leader who would free the Jews from the oppression of Rome (and other political enemies). Jesus’ constantly stated that wasn’t his mission… rather it was making all things new in him, and reconnecting humanity to God.
There are those within the Traditional Jewish community who TODAY reject Zionism (and Israel) because they see a political return to Israel before the arrival of the Messiah as heresy. Not many, but they are there.
The messiah (Mashiach in Hebrew) was the annointed one. So, technically, David was a mashiach (annointed one) as were Saul and Solomon. The original Jewish thought at the time of the NT was that the Messah would be a great warrior and political leader who would free the Jews from the oppression of Rome (and other political enemies). Jesus’ constantly stated that wasn’t his mission… rather it was making all things new in him, and reconnecting humanity to God.
There are those within the Traditional Jewish community who TODAY reject Zionism (and Israel) because they see a political return to Israel before the arrival of the Messiah as heresy. Not many, but they are there.
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nordskoven
Guest
Messianic Christian Gentiles (non-Hebrew Catholics) are forensically ingrafted, adopted, into the Covenant People descending from the 12 tribes of Israel. And as the Lord’s promise was that Abraham’s seed (accounted through Jacob/Israel via Sarah) would be numberless. And one may note adoption in full sonship, as that through the Virgin Mary whose assent was as a “handmaid” with her Child having full sonship, means we have full sonship and can never be alienated from the family as was Hagar’s son after her demotion to “servant.” Forensically, the twelve tribes are genetically (as shown in tracing Levi to Africa) and spiritually extant. The Woman Clothed with the Sun in chapter 12 of John’s Apocalypse is crowned with twelve stars. In reading Jacob’s prophesy for his children, I assumed these were the twelve stars from whom we all descend spiritually, even the twelve apostles. There is no “replacement theology” but there is the uncomfortable snuggling at the feet of pre-Messianic Jews in whom the whole world is blessed. May the Creator grant Jerusalem His perfect peace. Check out the Association of Hebrew Catholics, btw. THANKS FOR THE INTERNET ROGUE’S GALLERY LINK, BTW!
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