Do LDS baptize converts immediately?

[XuDan]

Actually XuDan, this does not accurately reflect mormon thought at all. God does not “learn more” or “grow” in his “eternal progression” according to mormon beliefs, but rather he only eternally progresses through his children who are learning and growing. A quote to show what I mean, but there are many like it. This one is Maxwell:

“Unfortunately, the omniscience of God in the minds of some well-meaning Latter-day Saints has been qualified by the concept of “eternal progression.” Some have wrongly assumed God’s progress is related to His acquisition of additional knowledge. In fact, God’s “eternal progression” (if one is nevertheless determined to apply these two words to God) is related to the successful execution, again and again, of His plan of salvation to redeem billions of His children throughout His many creations.”

Of course this is not a defense of the insane belief that we can become gods or anything like that, only trying to explain actual mormon thought on the concept.

Oy vey! That actually makes it even worse, because it means that God is dependent upon His creation and it’s success. That without the creation’s success, God is somehow stagnate, unsuccessful, or not “progressive.”

Since God is incomprehensible in His perfection, any assertion of “progression” let alone one that creates a dependency on us humans is absurdity.

I regret, daily, having been sucked in and hoodwinked by them.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Oy vey! That actually makes it even worse, because it means that God is dependent upon His creation and it’s success. That without the creation’s success, God is somehow stagnate, unsuccessful, or not “progressive.”

I regret, daily, having been sucked in and hoodwinked by them.

Like a celestial pyramid scheme.

 

[Stevenrushing]

Oy vey! That actually makes it even worse, because it means that God is dependent upon His creation and it’s success. That without the creation’s success, God is somehow stagnate, unsuccessful, or not “progressive.”

Since God is incomprehensible in His perfection, any assertion of “progression” let alone one that creates a dependency on us humans is absurdity.

I regret, daily, having been sucked in and hoodwinked by them.

Yup. I feel your pain. =)

 

[XuDan]

It does give some food for thought when it comes to Utah’s penchant for MLM’s and susceptibility to affinity fraud.

Like a celestial pyramid scheme.

Yup, it’s uncanny.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is truth to what you posted. God will never give you more than you can handle (IMHO) And God always wants more for us (spiritually of course) but as far as being on par with God, no. If we are to become gods ourselves, what purpose is there for God?

Oh, I don’t know about the “more than you can handle”. That makes us view suffering, that is caused by humans, as a trial that God desires.

Is a starving child being tested? Is that child’s death a test?

I had a nephew, who died several years ago, who was born severely handicapped. People would tell my brother, what a special gift God had given my brother. Wow, that would set my brother off, that anyone would think that how my nephew was born, was a gift.

What I see, is that God suffered with us and calls us to suffer with others. Not as a means to view our living through trials as triumphs, but the means to living in reality and understanding that even in our trials, and especially in our trials, God loves us.

We grow in Christ, not in ourselves.

 

[XuDan]

Oh, I don’t know about the “more than you can handle”. That makes us view suffering, that is caused by humans, as a trial that God desires.

Is a starving child being tested? Is that child’s death a test?

I had a nephew, who died several years ago, who was born severely handicapped. People would tell my brother, what a special gift God had given my brother. Wow, that would set my brother off, that anyone would think that how my nephew was born, was a gift.

What I see, is that God suffered with us and calls us to suffer with others. Not as a means to view our living through trials as triumphs, but the means to living in reality and understanding that even in our trials, and especially in our trials, God loves us.

We grow in Christ, not in ourselves.

Yes, that is five (5) thumbs up on the “how many thumbs out of two” scale of ratings.

 

[Telstar]

The Mormon answer to your question is, God gave you what you can handle, but hopes you’ll want something more. That means, godhood and all that entails. We’re just not ambitious enough for the God of Mormons.

When they say things like that, they refer to “your limited spiritual understanding” (in their opinion), as if God only “gave you what you can handle”. They infer by it that you ‘lack’ a deeper understanding (that they think they already possess), obviously because in their opinion you’re inferior to them, spiritually speaking. It’s because of their own spiritual pride, and their judgement of the lack of worthiness of other people, that makes them say such things. They’re treading on dangerous ground when they do this, whether they realize it or not. That’s the kind of attitude that Jesus condemned in the story of the Pharisee who was judging the worthiness of the prayers of the publican, compared to himself. Pride is extremely detrimental to human spirituality.

There is truth to what you posted. God will never give you more than you can handle (IMHO)…

Oh, I don’t know about the “more than you can handle”. That makes us view suffering, that is caused by humans, as a trial that God desires.

It’s true that God won’t give us more than we can handle, no matter what the source of our suffering may be. Of course, the suffering that comes to us from others is not desired by God, but He does allow it. Most of the time we have no clue why He does, but God always has a purpose, even if we don’t understand what it could possibly be. Most of the time it’s because it makes us stronger, and brings us closer to Him. It might be to teach us to have patience in suffering; or to show us an example of things we should never do; or any number of other reasons. It might just be so we’ll turn around and lean on Him, whenever we feel overwhelmed by those trials. He wants us to think of Him more often, and these kinds of situations might be the only time we tend to do that.

Is a starving child being tested?

No, not at all. But, seeing a starving child tests all of us, by challenging us to do something about it. Even if we fail to do anything, that child’s suffering still serves a noble purpose in God’s plan, because He would never allow it if it served no purpose at all. We should all see Jesus in that poor suffering child. We should remember what He said about what we should do for them, as if they were Him.

Is that child’s death a test?

Again, not for them, but for the rest of us.

I had a nephew, who died several years ago, who was born severely handicapped. People would tell my brother, what a special gift God had given my brother. Wow, that would set my brother off, that anyone would think that how my nephew was born, was a gift.

This is something that’s always hard to understand. I have a sibling who was born mentally challenged. A lot of people would say that kind of thing is more of a curse than a blessing. It certainly wasn’t easy to deal with all the hardships that it caused them, and the rest of us, over the years. But, I think we really have been blessed by them in many ways, in the long run. Personally, I think I’ve learned a lot, and hopefully become a better person, because of the whole experience. God always has a higher purpose for sending us things like this, even if we can’t understand what it is.

What I see, is that God suffered with us and calls us to suffer with others. Not as a means to view our living through trials as triumphs, but the means to living in reality and understanding that even in our trials, and especially in our trials, God loves us.

We grow in Christ, not in ourselves.

Amen to that!

Whenever we suffer in this life, we should try to remember all that Jesus suffered for us. We should never think that we shouldn’t have to suffer, at all. We must all pick up our cross and follow Him. What better way is there to become more like Jesus?

 

[JaminB123]

God does not “learn more” or “grow” in his “eternal progression” according to mormon beliefs…

Really? What about Prophet Lorenzo Snow’s teaching that, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”? If God was once as man is and grew/progressed to Godhood… then he’s not the first cause God that Christians know, he’s not the true God.

Let me guess… Prophet Snow was just expressing an opinion and this isn’t official Mormon doctrine? No, friend, this was a “Prophet” speaking on matters of faith, on the nature of God. If he can lead his church astray by teaching such a blasphemous theology, then he’s not a prophet and the whole house of cards crumbles.

Mormons point at early Christian history and cry, “Apostasy.” Yet Mormonism tolerates so much blasphemous theology from their early “prophets” (BY’s adam-god teaching, LS’s “god was once like man” teaching, etc.). How are their incorrect, blasphemous teachings not apostasy? By Mormon logic, we need another restoration because of all the false teachings about God taught by the early Mormon prophets.

OK. Enough rant. Explain Prophet Snow’s quote to me, please. "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

 

[Stevenrushing]

Really? What about Prophet Lorenzo Snow’s teaching that, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”? If God was once as man is and grew/progressed to Godhood… then he’s not the first cause God that Christians know, he’s not the true God.

Let me guess… Prophet Snow was just expressing an opinion and this isn’t official Mormon doctrine? No, friend, this was a “Prophet” speaking on matters of faith, on the nature of God. If he can lead his church astray by teaching such a blasphemous theology, then he’s not a prophet and the whole house of cards crumbles.

Mormons point at early Christian history and cry, “Apostasy.” Yet Mormonism tolerates so much blasphemous theology from their early “prophets” (BY’s adam-god teaching, LS’s “god was once like man” teaching, etc.). How are their incorrect, blasphemous teachings not apostasy? By Mormon logic, we need another restoration because of all the false teachings about God taught by the early Mormon prophets.

OK. Enough rant. Explain Prophet Snow’s quote to me, please. "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

You have clearly mistaken me as someone who is here defending mormon doctrine. Please go back and read my actual post, not just the first half sentence.

Also, how is snow’s quote related to whether God is progressing NOW, or how the progression takes place?

Also, no one here is angry. Please check your anger at the door on the way in.

 

[Jerusha]

StephenR-- you might want to change your religious affiliation to indicate where you are at with Mormonism. We have had many angry Mormon apologists participating here over the years, and some of us can get a bit feisty at times, expecting the worst.

“Unorthodox Mormon”,“New Order Mormon”, “On my way out of Mormonism” “In transit from Mormonism” or some such thing-- whatever strikes your fancy…

 

[JaminB123]

You have clearly mistaken me as someone who is here defending mormon doctrine. Please go back and read my actual post, not just the first half sentence.

Also, how is snow’s quote related to whether God is progressing NOW, or how the progression takes place?

Also, no one here is angry. Please check your anger at the door on the way in.

Sorry if I came off as angry. I didn’t intend to. My rant remark at the end was meant more as a self-depracting (and apparently failed) attempt at humor after I got a little soapboxy.

So help me understand, Mormons believe that God grew/progressed in the past but he’s not growing/progressing NOW? Is that the distinction?

 

[JaminB123]

You have clearly mistaken me as someone who is here defending mormon doctrine.

Oh, my bad. I saw your profile listed you as Mormon and maybe I read your comment from a mistaken context. Now that I read back the thread a little more, I’m getting it. In my defense, sometimes I’m an idiot… so I got that going for me.

 

[Stevenrushing]

StephenR-- you might want to change your religious affiliation to indicate where you are at with Mormonism. We have had many angry Mormon apologists participating here over the years, and some of us can get a bit feisty at times, expecting the worst.

“Unorthodox Mormon”,“New Order Mormon”, “On my way out of Mormonism” “In transit from Mormonism” or some such thing-- whatever strikes your fancy…

Just so we understand each other, you are saying that I will not be judged by my words, and if I keep “Mormon” as my religious affiliation, I should expect to be treated differently (the implication is more poorly) based on the actions of others in the past… Sounds a bit like bigotry to me…

 

[Stevenrushing]

Sorry if I came off as angry. I didn’t intend to. My rant remark at the end was meant more as a self-depracting (and apparently failed) attempt at humor after I got a little soapboxy.

So help me understand, Mormons believe that God grew/progressed in the past but he’s not growing/progressing NOW? Is that the distinction?

No worries, it happens. =) Eternal progression is eternal, and God (according to Mormon thought at least) continues to progress, but his progression comes through us. Mormons fully accept God’s omniscience and omnipotence, there is nothing left for him to learn. But when we learn, when we join his church, when we progress, his family, posterity grows, and that is how he progresses now.

As XuDan said, this is even worse that saying that he is greater than us and we will never reach him, but he is still learning. This is judging god by his creation, as if our success or failure could make a success or failure of god.

 

[RebeccaJ]

When they say things like that, they refer to “your limited spiritual understanding” (in their opinion), as if God only “gave you what you can handle”. They infer by it that you ‘lack’ a deeper understanding (that they think they already possess), obviously because in their opinion you’re inferior to them, spiritually speaking. It’s because of their own spiritual pride, and their judgement of the lack of worthiness of other people, that makes them say such things. They’re treading on dangerous ground when they do this, whether they realize it or not. That’s the kind of attitude that Jesus condemned in the story of the Pharisee who was judging the worthiness of the prayers of the publican, compared to himself. Pride is extremely detrimental to human spirituality.

It’s true that God won’t give us more than we can handle, no matter what the source of our suffering may be. Of course, the suffering that comes to us from others is not desired by God, but He does allow it. Most of the time we have no clue why He does, but God always has a purpose, even if we don’t understand what it could possibly be. Most of the time it’s because it makes us stronger, and brings us closer to Him. It might be to teach us to have patience in suffering; or to show us an example of things we should never do; or any number of other reasons. It might just be so we’ll turn around and lean on Him, whenever we feel overwhelmed by those trials. He wants us to think of Him more often, and these kinds of situations might be the only time we tend to do that.

No, not at all. But, seeing a starving child tests all of us, by challenging us to do something about it. Even if we fail to do anything, that child’s suffering still serves a noble purpose in God’s plan, because He would never allow it if it served no purpose at all. We should all see Jesus in that poor suffering child. We should remember what He said about what we should do for them, as if they were Him.

Again, not for them, but for the rest of us.

This is something that’s always hard to understand. I have a sibling who was born mentally challenged. A lot of people would say that kind of thing is more of a curse than a blessing. It certainly wasn’t easy to deal with all the hardships that it caused them, and the rest of us, over the years. But, I think we really have been blessed by them in many ways, in the long run. Personally, I think I’ve learned a lot, and hopefully become a better person, because of the whole experience. God always has a higher purpose for sending us things like this, even if we can’t understand what it is.

Amen to that!

Whenever we suffer in this life, we should try to remember all that Jesus suffered for us. We should never think that we shouldn’t have to suffer, at all. We must all pick up our cross and follow Him. What better way is there to become more like Jesus?

Suffering just is, and while I believe the Catholic approach to suffering makes more sense than most, the best approach I’ve ever come across is, “life is suffering”. That’s the truth of it. Whether or not I believe God allows suffering for some good, or it’s just “sh&@ happens”, the reality of the actual suffering, doesn’t change.

And really, what good do we get from a child dying of starvation, and really, that is the tool God is going to teach us with?

I don’t find that to be plausible.

God became man, in order to suffer with us. I find that has something important to say, but what it is…

Love the other enough to suffer with them. That’s about all we can do, because that is what Christ did. Something redemptive, but why that is, is a mystery to me.

 

[Jerusha]

Just so we understand each other, you are saying that I will not be judged by my words, and if I keep “Mormon” as my religious affiliation, I should expect to be treated differently (the implication is more poorly) based on the actions of others in the past… Sounds a bit like bigotry to me…

Learned reactions do not deserve the word bigotry. It is simply a human tendency by imperfect humans. Labels predispose people to such reactions-- so therefore if you are more descriptive in your labels, we might understand you better off the line.

You are using the same strategies as “jane doe” who has apparently left.

 

[Stevenrushing]

Learned reactions do not deserve the word bigotry. It is simply a human tendency by imperfect humans. Labels predispose people to such reactions-- so therefore if you are more descriptive in your labels, we might understand you better off the line.

You are using the same strategies as “jane doe” who has apparently left.

So if a person has a learned reaction to distrust a black man because in the past they have been mugged by a person who happens to be black, it is not bigotry to distrust them, but “simply a human tendency by imperfect humans” and that person should put “black, but not the bad kind” in their profile? Sorry, no.

 

[Jerusha]

So if a person has a learned reaction to distrust a black man because in the past they have been mugged by a person who happens to be black, it is not bigotry to distrust them, but “simply a human tendency by imperfect humans” and that person should put “black, but not the bad kind” in their profile? Sorry, no.

It is the responsibility of the person to overcome such learned prejudices. The understanding person will work to help others overcome such prejudices. Race, on the internet, is generally irrelevant. Here, religion is relevant. The purpose of this forum is to overcome such prejudices and inform ourselves about other religions.

If you are the kind of person you say you are, you should already know that your analogy has serious faults.

And, no, I will not get into personal details about my experiences which led me to begin studying Mormonism. That would be whining, and it is one thing that irritates me about Mormon culture.

 

[jane_doe]

Learned reactions do not deserve the word bigotry. It is simply a human tendency by imperfect humans. Labels predispose people to such reactions-- so therefore if you are more descriptive in your labels, we might understand you better off the line.

You are using the same strategies as “jane doe” who has apparently left.

Jerusha, are you defending the use of labels to judge a person? It doesn’t make sense for you to do such a thing, but it sounds like it.

I have been quiet because, frankly, I have been frustrated. I’ve been trying to converse with people hear, but it seems like because of a label, people are unable to see past a label and somehow want to hold me accountable for every jerk thing every other Mormon might have done with their lives.

I refuse to be put on trail for what someone else has done. I tried to just address what I personally belief and have experienced through the years. But honestly it seems people are more interested in other things. And I refuse to personally adopt a label in my vocabulary that says “Catholic = a person unwilling to look past a label and past grudges” because I KNOW through personal experience that that’s 100% not what the Catholic faith is about. So it felt like silence was the best course. Do you have a better one, Jerusha?

 

[Jerusha]

Jerusha, are you defending the use of labels to judge a person? It doesn’t make sense for you to do such a thing, but it sounds like it.

No, I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person. However, I do know that many people do. When we label ourselves, we place ourselves in a situation which predisposes others to judge us according to that label. More descriptive statements are less prejudicial.

When dealing with Mormons, I often misremember the statement “Everything you say or do will be twisted and used against you.” To adopt a policy of silence, however, is to allow others to place me in the role of a Korihor (another thought-stopping label). Alma was unable to speak while he was recovering from his conversion experience. He was healed. Why was he not merciful in the same way towards Korihor? What was good for one should be good for another.

Mormons tend more frequently to live in past grudges-- forgiving no-one who is not a Mormon. Take a look at the way hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology. What about the curse that the great Abinadi laid upon his persecutors? Or Joseph Smith? Yet Jesus, in his last hours, said “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Just as Stephen the martyr did just before he died as a martyr.

Look at my sig, which I have carried for several years.