Do LDS baptize converts immediately?

[jane_doe]

No, I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person. However, I do know that many people do. When we label ourselves, we place ourselves in a situation which predisposes others to judge us according to that label. More descriptive statements are less prejudicial.

When dealing with Mormons, I often misremember the statement “Everything you say or do will be twisted and used against you.” To adopt a policy of silence, however, is to allow others to place me in the role of a Korihor (another thought-stopping label). Alma was unable to speak while he was recovering from his conversion experience. He was healed. Why was he not merciful in the same way towards Korihor? What was good for one should be good for another.

Mormons tend more frequently to live in past grudges-- forgiving no-one who is not a Mormon. Take a look at the way hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology. What about the curse that the great Abinadi laid upon his persecutors? Or Joseph Smith? Yet Jesus, in his last hours, said “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Just as Stephen the martyr did just before he died as a martyr.

Look at my sig, which I have carried for several years.

Jerusha, I don’t think I’m understanding what you’re trying to say.

In your first paragraph you say “I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person.”. Ok, cool. But then in your paragraph you seem to be saying that Mormons universally live in past grudges (you say “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology”), which seems a lot like a label-based-judgement for a whole group of people. Hence contradicting your first paragraph statement. And I’m not sure what your non-silence has anything to do with Korihor or Alma.

Can you help me understand what you’re trying to say?

 

[Telstar]

Suffering just is, and while I believe the Catholic approach to suffering makes more sense than most, the best approach I’ve ever come across is, “life is suffering”. That’s the truth of it. Whether or not I believe God allows suffering for some good, or it’s just “sh&@ happens”, the reality of the actual suffering, doesn’t change.

This life is certainly full of suffering, and I absolutely agree, “sh&@ happens” and we really can’t do much about it. Maybe saying that “God allows” suffering is a bit too harsh sounding. Actually, God knows that we all suffer, and Jesus can certainly sympathize with us, because He’s been there, too. But, we all have free will. We can choose to do something sinful that causes pain to others, or not. But, God cannot interfere with what we do to each other. Basically, His hands are tied because He gave us free will.

So, when we’re either hurt by others, or by circumstances that are beyond our control, He will reward us if we humbly endure those things in His name. Or, even better, if we offer them up to Him, so He can use the merits of our actions to do something good for us, and for others. That’s why you often hear Catholics say, “offer it up”. Jesus will add our sufferings His own, so those merits can do some kind of good. That’s one of the ways that God really can turn evil into good. It’s what gives real value to all of our suffering, so it isn’t just something evil that happens to us. If we try to remember that, it really can make it a little easier to put up with suffering.

And really, what good do we get from a child dying of starvation, and really, that is the tool God is going to teach us with?

I don’t find that to be plausible.

First of all, we have to remember that God does not cause that child to suffer. Whether we choose to believe it or not, it’s the evil of sin that causes all of the suffering in this world. Every little sin that’s committed, effects all of us in some way. Adam and Eve’s one sin caused death to come into the world, and separated us all from God, until Jesus came to reopen the Gates of Heaven. One man’s (and woman’s) sin of disobedience did tremendous damage to the whole world. But, another Man’s (Jesus) selfless act of love (the Incarnation) can heal that same world, and us, if we would only choose to follow His way, instead the way of Adam and Eve.

We’re all part of the family of mankind, so whatever one of us does, has some kind of effect on the rest of us, either good or bad. In the end, God will also use those kinds of situations to turn that kind of evil into something good. How? I have no clue, but I do believe it. Otherwise, it just makes God seem like He’s uncaring, and I know that’s not true because of what Jesus did for all of us.

God became man, in order to suffer with us. I find that has something important to say, but what it is…

It says that God loves us so much, that He (Jesus) chose to give up His Divine Power and rightful place in Heaven, for a short time, and become as weak as one of us. And, He freely chose to suffer the most that any other man has ever suffered, in order to show us just how far God would go to help us, and how we can return to the right path by following Him. All He really wants in return, is for us to truly love Him with our whole heart.

Love the other enough to suffer with them. That’s about all we can do, because that is what Christ did. Something redemptive, but why that is, is a mystery to me.

Love really is the key. It’s all a huge mystery to everyone, so you’re certainly not alone in wondering about it.

 

[Jerusha]

Jerusha, I don’t think I’m understanding what you’re trying to say.

In your first paragraph you say “I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person.”. Ok, cool. But then in your paragraph you seem to be saying that Mormons universally live in past grudges (you say “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology”), which seems a lot like a label-based-judgement for a whole group of people. I said generally. And Mormon theology does not mean the same thing as all Mormons. Again, you are perhaps intentionally distorting what I said. Hence contradicting your first paragraph statement. And I’m not sure what your non-silence has anything to do with Korihor or Alma.

When Illustrating my refusal to quit communicating, I am only using an example/ vocabulary that you are familiar with.

If what I say is upsetting you, perhaps you need to need to quit participating on a site that is causing you pain. We are only asking you to stretch your thinking-- which sometimes gets very painful, when we confront misperceptions that we may have held our whole lives.

Take a look at how Catholics approach the problem of pain. Very different from how Mormonism does.

Again, Mormons and Mormonism are two different things. Mormons often confuse themselves with the church they belong to.

 

[jane_doe]

When Illustrating my refusal to quit communicating, I am only using an example/ vocabulary that you are familiar with.

If what I say is upsetting you, perhaps you need to need to quit participating on a site that is causing you pain.

I’m not upset, I was just asking for clarification on what you were saying, i.e. for you TO communicate.

We are only asking you to stretch your thinking.

Jerusha, unless you have a split-personality, there is no “we” when you (one person) are talking. I’m trying to talk to you: one individual talking to another.

Mormons often confuse themselves with the church they belong to.

Again, you’re making label-centric generalizations.

Jersuha, my name is Jane, not “Mormons”, please talk to ME.

 

[Jerusha]

Jersuha, my name is Jane, not “Mormons”, please talk to ME.

The “we” I am talking about is the team of Catholics who participate in the never-ending debate here.

So, tell us about yourself. Were you born into Mormonism? Do you live in a heavily Mormon part of the country, or have you? What are you currently doing to live your Mormon faith? You grew up with a Catholic friend-- can you make contact with her again?

 

[XuDan]

I think there is some poor communication going on here. If you don’t mind I’m going to call it like I see it and see if that helps people here.

1. 
   *]Steven, a disillusioned LDS (also could be called “Jack Mormon” but you have to be careful with this term, as it can be offensive to some people. But it basically means Mormon in name alone. I don’t know how Steven lives his life so I would not apply this term, but if he drank coffee, ate meat daily, drank beer, or anything else that is against the dogmas of the LDS faith - then “Jack Mormon” may be an apt term. For now, I would caution against using it though.) feels trapped in the faith because his wife is a TBM (True Blue Mormon for those who don’t know) who “sustains” the church. He chooses to go through the motions in the church so that he doesn’t hurt her or provoke a divorce, among the many other social repercussions that may happen. He has offered a perspective what his ward has taught in the spirit of furthering accurate perspicacity in this discussion.
   
   *]People see his tag Mormon, then his explanation, and begin to refute. Missing, the detail that he is not defending it or agreeing with it.
   
   *]3. Jerusha suggests that a change in the tag might help Steven not get jumped on because if people read his explanation, then saw the tag “disillusioned Mormon” or whatever else, that they would likely not jump down his throat.
   
   *]It is pointed out by Steven and Jane that acquiescing to conditional treatment of people based on a label or affiliation is to enable bigotry (defined as: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself).
   
   *]Jerusha agrees in full and asserts that in the case of LDS it is an attitude that has unfortunately been “earned” by the large percentage of LDS who use fallacy and dishonesty to engage in discourse. It is then pointed out that the LDS community generally treats those who leave it or refuse to join it or be sympathetic to it’s methods/doctrines poorly. That because of this, people see a Mormon tag and approach with caution or frustration, because in the majority of their experiences (or in some cases for “never-been-LDS” folks; all of their experiences and interactions) have resulted in being subjected to dishonest discourse, condensation, or other poor treatment. Such as the conditional formation of a friendship in order to proselytize, once that is rejected or refused, the friendship becomes more manipulative and/or dissolves. This type of hurtful behavior by the majority of LDS interactions here and withing the personal lives of people here have lead to a general distrust of LDS on a whole. Which is why Jersuha made the suggestion.
   
   I think this covers it.
   
   All this said, while the original suggestion was said in good faith and well intentions, it is my opinion that it was communicated in poor taste. Evidenced by the offense taken by Steven. Sure, changing his tag might ease the perception issue by others, but, it’s not really needed as he is clear in his position and the original response that missed this already admitted that they missed it and apologized.
   
   As to the complaint by Jane, yes, it is unfair to generalize all LDS. You’re right. It is equally unfair to expect others to treat all LDS with anything less than suspicion considering that so few who come here to honestly learn or honestly challenge themselves. The LDS bring this suspicion on themselves as they come to our homes and tell us that we are wrong, and they are right. They stop on on the street for the same purpose. That is the mission of the LDS church and it is the official position of the LDS church that all members are missionaries called to do the same. Member missionaries. So while you may not have such intentions (I’m taking you at your word on this), and while you may be a respecter of the 11th article of faith, so many are not like you. So it should be of no surprise that considering the actions of the Church you are a member of, one that claims authority by preaching that the Catholics pervert religion and thus lost authority, that you must earn the trust of Catholics on a Catholic message board.
   
   It takes time. I’m sure there will be growing pains as people get to know you. But if your presence here is as you claim that trust will be earned, I’m sure. Look at it this way, many here have been abused by the LDS church and it’s members. People who are abused find it very difficult to trust again - especially those who have similarities and/or things in common with the past abusers.
   
   I don’t know if any of this will help give some perspective. For all I know, it could make things worse. But my hope is that we can all walk away with a better understanding of each other and move forward with more patience for each others respective positions.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Jerusha, I don’t think I’m understanding what you’re trying to say.

Jerusha:

No, I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person. However, I do know that many people do. When we label ourselves, we place ourselves in a situation which predisposes others to judge us according to that label. More descriptive statements are less prejudicial.

When dealing with Mormons, I often misremember the statement “Everything you say or do will be twisted and used against you.” To adopt a policy of silence, however, is to allow others to place me in the role of a Korihor (another thought-stopping label). Alma was unable to speak while he was recovering from his conversion experience. He was healed. Why was he not merciful in the same way towards Korihor? What was good for one should be good for another.

Mormons tend more frequently to live in past grudges

– forgiving no-one who is not a Mormon. Take a look at the way hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology. What about the curse that the great Abinadi laid upon his persecutors? Or Joseph Smith? Yet Jesus, in his last hours, said “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Just as Stephen the martyr did just before he died as a martyr.

Look at my sig, which I have carried for several years.

In your first paragraph you say “I categorically reject the use of labels to judge a person.”. Ok, cool. But then in your paragraph you seem to be saying that Mormons universally live in past grudges (you say “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology”), which seems a lot like a label-based-judgement for a whole group of people. Hence contradicting your first paragraph statement. And I’m not sure what your non-silence has anything to do with Korihor or Alma.

Can you help me understand what you’re trying to say?

How does “tend more frequently to live in past grudges” equal “universally live in past grudges”? It seems you’re willing to exaggerate what others have said in order to be wronged.

Saying “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology” is not a generalization of Mormons any more than saying “the fallen state of man” is essential to Catholic theology is a generalization of Catholics.

 

[Jerusha]

Thanks. Teamwork works.

 

[jane_doe]

How does “tend more frequently to live in past grudges” equal “universally live in past grudges”? It seems you’re willing to exaggerate what others have said in order to be wronged.

Saying “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology” is not a generalization of Mormons any more than saying “the fallen state of man” is essential to Catholic theology is a generalization of Catholics.

[This reply discusses post 139 and my reaction to it]

The part I viewed to as being a categorical was when Jerusha “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology”, and then listed several examples he viewed as Mormons not forgiving others.

I had problems with this statement because:

1. I view it has theologically inaccurate. There is no Mormon Article of faith which says “thou shalt never forgive”. Rather, there are many scriptures prompting us to forgive our neighbors and those who trespass us. Forgiveness plays a central role in my own faith.
2. The underlying implication of “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology” and rest of the associated post is that it implies if a person forgives then that must disqualify them from being a Mormon. It’s “no true Scotsmen” logical fallacy and stereotyping.

 

[Stevenrushing]

This board needs a “like” button and a “boss” tag so I can press it a few hundred times for XuDan’s most recent post. Blessed are the peacemakers indeed.

 

[jane_doe]

So, tell us about yourself.

Hello, my name is Jane . I’m a scientist, midway through my phD. I have the most adorable daughter and wonderful husband. My hobbies include visiting random churches and talking to the people inside to learn how they view God (I find doing this to be invigorating). Personally, I am a Mormon.

Were you born into Mormonism?

Yes. My immediate growing up family is pretty devout Mormon. I am currently, but have not always been. My husband is not LDS, my in-laws are evangelical, my friends are a variety of faiths (>95% non-LDS). My best friend growing up was Catholic.

Do you live in a heavily Mormon part of the country, or have you?

I would rather be shot than live in Utah.

I grew up in the Eastern US, where Mormons are a very small minority. I do have family in UT (my dad comes from pioneer stock), but we are not close.

I did live in Rexburg for a while, and absolutely hated it: I developed extreme depression in response to UT-ish culture and just wanted to punch everyone in the face. My time there actually resulted in me quitting church for a while (and everything else) as I regained my footing.

What are you currently doing to live your Mormon faith?

My favorite thing to do with my faith is to pray to God and read His words.

My second favorite thing to do with faith is to talk to other people about it: to share my joy, and to have them share their’s with me. I love to hear different people’s views and to understand them. God is so magnificent.

Note: I have said nothing about knocking on doors or shoving my particular beliefs down your throat. I encourage people to find God where they can. For example, one of my good friends has recently really gotten into this mega-evengelical-church, and I encourage her to go there by asking how it went, talking about the sermons with her, and sharing her excitement. I intend to visit there with her the next time I’m in her city.

I do attend my Mormon church in my city ~twice a month, and mostly enjoy it.

You grew up with a Catholic friend-- can you make contact with her again?

My best friend growing up was Catholic. For 15 years we were sisters, sharing everything with each other. I attended her confirmation, youth group, random masses, family weddings/funerals, and Stations of the Cross for 7 years. Meanwhile, she never visited my church/events and openly resented my involvement with the Mormon church at points, but I did not take offense. I attended her things with her to be there with her, not as some church-currency exchange.

That relationship was part of what birthed my love of interfaith dialogue: for even though we didn’t agree on a lot of things, we still honored and respected each other. Around my friend I could be open about my love of God, unlike much of the modern society which declared faith a taboo subject.

As to making contact with this friend again… the short answer is no. Long answer [edited for length]: Several years ago she became involved with an abusive man. They moved into together, having sex, she got on 3 types of birth control, lost her spirituality … and in my eyes part of her soul died. I told her I was worried, but she pushed me away. Then one night, her boyfriend attempted to sexually assault me. She choose to believe I was lying (his version of events). Since then she literally pretends I don’t exist, even when face-to-face. So yeah… I can’t really ask her about the Catholic faith.

Side note: I have forgiven her and her boyfriend for their trespasses. I also have never blamed the Catholic faith for her actions.

So, as I am lacking any real-life Catholics to talk to learn about the Catholic faith and share joy with, I turned to the digital world! Hence why I’m here.

 

[Jerusha]

I appreciate that.

My mother had relatives who were Mormon, and she briefly converted to Mormonism while she was in Chicago. However, when her family moved to Hancock County Illinois, she came in contact with the Utah type of Mormons, and they alienated her. It was the prosperity theology-- so alien to the BoM. She met Dad, who was a descendant of the opposition in that county. His family had long ago forgiven the Mormons, believing them to be victims of a false prophet who led them to a disease-ridden swamp and accepted forged deeds to land across the river.

She converted to Catholicism, and I was raised Catholic, but the Mormon cultural influence watered down that Catholicism.

I never knew this-- they never told me. We did not discuss it overtly. So, according to some Mormons, I had at least three strikes against me. Plus a bit of Native ancestry.

I wandered away from the Church because of that confusion, but returned.

Long story short, I ended up on a small town somewhere in the Southwest. Somehow, I was on church records as a member. They had hired me in the public schools because they wanted to control the school system. Needless to say, I did not cooperate with their agenda, and by the time they were done with me, I was a mess, as were my two children.

Since escaping that part of the country I have worked as a substitute teacher in a good district, but had to give it up this year because my hearing loss has gotten too bad to do the kind of job I would like to do.

I am active in my parish and another parish community in multiple roles, but limited now because I live in the country, and don’t have a functioning car. It makes good auxiliary storage, though.

 

[jane_doe]

Thank you for sharing your story with me Jerusha It is nice to get to know people here.

However, when her family moved to Hancock County Illinois, she came in contact with the Utah type of Mormons, and they alienated her. It was the prosperity theology-- so alien to the BoM.

Yes, unfortunately Mormon people don’t always best exemplify Mormon beliefs. Just like some Catholics people don’t always best exemplify Catholics beliefs, or any other religious group.

She converted to Catholicism, and I was raised Catholic, but the Mormon cultural influence watered down that Catholicism.

I never knew this-- they never told me. We did not discuss it overtly. So, according to some Mormons, I had at least three strikes against me. Plus a bit of Native ancestry.

Could you elaborate on this? I’m unsure that you mean.

my hearing loss has gotten too bad to do the kind of job I would like to do.

Random question: have you tried sign language? I love ASL and find it so beautiful.

I am active in my parish and another parish community in multiple roles, but limited now because I live in the country, and don’t have a functioning car. It makes good auxiliary storage, though.

I can relate to that! I live in the middle-of-no-where and my husband and I only have one function car so I walk most places in our small town. And the non-functioning car has turned into a coat closet. I currently help out at my church’s family history center.

 

[Jerusha]

Thank you for sharing your story with me Jerusha It is nice to get to know people here.

Yes, unfortunately Mormon people don’t always best exemplify Mormon beliefs. Just like some Catholics people don’t always best exemplify Catholics beliefs, or any other religious group.

I disagree with you. At least within Utah Mormon practice, tithing and temple recommend are inextricably intertwined. And anyone who does not have enough money to give 10% to the church and still live adequately does not get a recommend.

Could you elaborate on this? I’m unsure that you mean.

I guess denial and social pressure were the primary factors. It was just not discussed. I guess a cognitive problem on my part.

Random question: have you tried sign language? I love ASL and find it so beautiful.

I know a little bit. It is not that bad-- I can get by in a quiet environment and lipreading. I can’t locate where a sound is coming from-- many fully-hearing people are unaware of this problem.

I can relate to that! I live in the middle-of-no-where and my husband and I only have one function car so I walk most places in our small town. And the non-functioning car has turned into a coat closet. I currently help out at my church’s family history center.

One problem I had growing up-- I wanted to know about our family history, but they wouldn’t tell me. One of the problems of rejecting everything about Mormonism.

 

[jane_doe]

One problem I had growing up-- I wanted to know about our family history, but they wouldn’t tell me. One of the problems of rejecting everything about Mormonism.

That’s horrible! You should never be afraid of the past, no matter how ugly it might have been.

 

[Jerusha]

That’s horrible! You should never be afraid of the past, no matter how ugly it might have been.

Interesting statement.

 

[jane_doe]

Interesting statement.

Shrug. If you want me to stay in some pre-defined box, you’re going to be disappointed.

 

[Telstar]

Hello, my name is Jane . I’m a scientist, midway through my phD. I have the most adorable daughter and wonderful husband. My hobbies include visiting random churches and talking to the people inside to learn how they view God (I find doing this to be invigorating). Personally, I am a Mormon.

Hello, my name is Lori. I’m an old fart that’s been around a while. I’m married to the sweetest guy in the world (44 years in May), and we have three sons (cue theme song). I’m not sure you could call it a hobby, but I love to sing.

Yes. My immediate growing up family is pretty devout Mormon. I am currently, but have not always been. My husband is not LDS, my in-laws are evangelical, my friends are a variety of faiths (>95% non-LDS). My best friend growing up was Catholic.

It must be hard having to deal with the family issues related to your not being married to a Mormon.

I would rather be shot than live in Utah.

When I read that line, especially coming from a Mormon, I just had to .

I grew up in the Eastern US, where Mormons are a very small minority. I do have family in UT (my dad comes from pioneer stock), but we are not close.

I did live in Rexburg for a while, and absolutely hated it: I developed extreme depression in response to UT-ish culture and** just wanted to punch everyone in the face**. My time there actually resulted in me quitting church for a while (and everything else) as I regained my footing.

For the bold part, you got another one…

We’re up here in the NE. My Mom was Catholic, born and raised. My Dad was raised Baptist, but converted to marry her. He was definitely a believer, though. His family gave him a lot of grief for years about it, but eventually they all made amends. So, us kids were all raised Catholic.

My favorite thing to do with my faith is to pray to God and read His words.

That’s always a good thing.

My best friend growing up was Catholic. For 15 years we were sisters, sharing everything with each other. I attended her confirmation, youth group, random masses, family weddings/funerals, and Stations of the Cross for 7 years. Meanwhile, she never visited my church/events and openly resented my involvement with the Mormon church at points, but I did not take offense. I attended her things with her to be there with her, not as some church-currency exchange.

Catholics really aren’t supposed to attend the services of other churches, so that’s understandable. It’s nice that you were allowed to attend hers, though.

That relationship was part of what birthed my love of interfaith dialogue: for even though we didn’t agree on a lot of things, we still honored and respected each other. Around my friend I could be open about my love of God, unlike much of the modern society which declared faith a taboo subject.

It’s really sad that most people are afraid to talk about God these days.

As to making contact with this friend again…

I’m so sorry to hear that. It sucks when friends break away from each other, especially due to circumstances like those.

So, as I am lacking any real-life Catholics to talk to learn about the Catholic faith and share joy with, I turned to the digital world! Hence why I’m here.

Well, you certainly came to the right place! Welcome aboard!

 

[jane_doe]

Hello, my name is Lori. I’m an old fart that’s been around a while. I’m married to the sweetest guy in the world (44 years in May), and we have three sons (cue theme song). I’m not sure you could call it a hobby, but I love to sing.

Nice to meet you Lori. Thank you for the welcome and congratulations on 44 years!!

It must be hard having to deal with the family issues related to your not being married to a Mormon.

Oh, it’s not so hard . My family is very accepting and loving of my husband, and visits more than my husband would like!

Occasionally I do have some religiously based problems with my evangelical mother-in-law though (mostly based on misconceptions).

We’re up here in the NE. My Mom was Catholic, born and raised. My Dad was raised Baptist, but converted to marry her. He was definitely a believer, though. His family gave him a lot of grief for years about it, but eventually they all made amends. So, us kids were all raised Catholic.

It sounds like you have a wonderful family J.

Catholics really aren’t supposed to attend the services of other churches, so that’s understandable. It’s nice that you were allowed to attend hers, though.

Why is that? I can understand not participating in another faith practices (like taking communion), but physically being in the building?

My friend always seemed to be back and forth on this. On one hand, during her confirmation classes her class visited many faiths and chatted with the leaders there (my friend excitedly raved about this for weeks). But on the other hand, one time in HS I invited her to a youth group hay ride / smore night at a local lake, and she got super offended about it. Obviously you guys wouldn’t know the exact reason why that was, but do you have any insight?

 

[zaffiroborant]

[This reply discusses post 139 and my reaction to it]

The part I viewed to as being a categorical was when Jerusha “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology”, and then listed several examples he viewed as Mormons not forgiving others.

I had problems with this statement because:

1. I view it has theologically inaccurate. There is no Mormon Article of faith which says “thou shalt never forgive”. Rather, there are many scriptures prompting us to forgive our neighbors and those who trespass us. Forgiveness plays a central role in my own faith.
2. The underlying implication of “hereditary guilt is an essential to Mormon theology” and rest of the associated post is that it implies if a person forgives then that must disqualify them from being a Mormon. It’s “no true Scotsmen” logical fallacy and stereotyping.

It’s not a no true Scotsman fallacy nor is it stereotyping hereditary guilt doesn’t mean that one doesn’t forgive another. After all forgiving someone of a crime doesn’t remove their guilt. Jerusha stated an interpretation of Mormon theology, you disagree with that interpretation but again you put words in in someone’s mouth.