Do LDS baptize converts immediately?

[kimg901]

Ah so that’s where you’re coming from. Makes more sense now.

(Speaking as myself)

Mormon theology has change over time, something I embrace and feel is a good thing. We, as a people, and me as an individual, grow more and more into Christ’s way. Gradually we let go of childish things (like grudges over past wrongs), and embrace a more Christ like way (like deep forgiveness).

I honestly think that Mormonism changes with the times. I cant think of any of the prophets revelations coming before any change, only after. But then again I could be wrong about this. But my heart tells me that we are all trying to come to Christ in our own ways (except non-Christ believing religions)

 

[kimg901]

I am sorry that it was taught to you that way, but in the 16 years of active Mormon life that I have had, I have never heard that taught, and I believe it has never been LDS doctrine. I think a teacher went off the rails in priesthood, which is all kinds of common in my experience.

The LDS scripture that this discussion comes from is D&C 68:25

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

There are very few sacred cows in LDS theology, but one of them is free agency. Children have the ability to choose, and while they are more likely to choose against Christ if they are not taught his ways (whatever the religious persuasion of the parents) the LDS church has always taught that their sins are their own.

Brigham Young himself and heck, JS had children who left the church. Anyone who taught what you said they taught was teaching incorrectly (according to LDS doctrine, already teaching incorrectly based on Christian doctrine).

Even here in Utah, Mormons that I know that have been born into the LDS church have not heard about a great many things taught by the church. And I know many “children” that have went away from their parents teachings and are now shunned by their own family because they are not LDS. But I see it more with Utah Mormons than non-Utah Mormons. The attitudes here are very different from others.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar, mind if I ask your reasoning for this?

I’m assuming you’re referring to my reluctance in letting children attend services, or even social events, where there might be evangelizing (proselytizing) going on. First of all, children are very impressionable. Their personal understanding of their own faith is still growing, at least until they reach mid-teens. They’re still learning about it, and trying to understand it. When those impressionable kids are exposed to someone (like a minister) from a different faith, who is teaching about things that are not quite the same, or even the opposite of what they’ve learned at home (like Holy Communion), they can get very confused. It might be difficult to convince them that your way is the correct way, especially if they go to another church, frequently. That’s why Catholics are discouraged from attending any services in other churches, because it can cause confusion and foster doubts. That’s when the defining line between the two very different sets of beliefs, can start to get fuzzy.

Growing up, my Mom encouraged my talking to other faiths. I’ve been visiting other churches since my youngest childhood, with and without parental supervision. When there was an idea present that didn’t make sense, or sit right, I would ask my mom about it, just like I did when there was a strange idea at school. Mom and I would talk about things, and I would ask unorthodox questions, and that was cool: it was opportunity for learning more about other faiths, Mormon faith, and my own personal.

Discussing other faiths with friends, is not the same as attending faith-based social events or services. I find it a little odd that an LDS Mom would encourage their kids to do that, especially knowing how their whole social structure is usually based around family participation in church functions. When you got older and left your LDS faith for a time, do you suppose that having attended any of those other churches had any effect on your decision to leave?

Note: I appreciate your sharing with me and by no means to insult your parenting style. I’m just curious about a methodology so different than what I’m used to.

No problem. I’m sure even a lot of Catholics would consider my opinions to be a bit archaic, or narrow minded. C’est la vie.

 

[Marie5890]

It is a parent’s duty to teach their children the ways of the Lord, and if you don’t do that then yes the sin is on you. Now, whether or not the children follow them is up to each kid, and they alone are responsible.

After all, in LDS theology, a third of God’s children choose not to follow His ways, and He was the perfect teacher. LDS scriptures (including the Bible) are also ripe with examples of children not following their parents’ righteous ways. You can only teach children, not force obedience.

When I was LDS, (80’s) this was the prevailing theology about raising children. With Proverbs 22:6 as a promise of hope for the parents if a child should fall away.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m sure that’s how you understand it, and perhaps how it is taught these days. However, that is not how it was once taught to the priesthood. It was once taught that if your child leaves the faith it is only because the patriarch failed to teach them properly and thus the sin is on the patriarch of the family (because the assumption is that if the child was indoctrinated correctly by their father they would never consider leaving, let alone do it). That is quite different. But, as you have pointed out, LDS theology changes. So perhaps it is taught differently these days.

Really? That is new to me. Any idea of how far back that teaching goes? It certainly was not prevelant when I was LDS.

 

[jane_doe]

. But my heart tells me that we are all trying to come to Christ in our own ways (except non-Christ believing religions)

 

[jane_doe]

I’m assuming you’re referring to my reluctance in letting children attend services, or even social events, where there might be evangelizing (proselytizing) going on. First of all, children are very impressionable. Their personal understanding of their own faith is still growing, at least until they reach mid-teens. They’re still learning about it, and trying to understand it. When those impressionable kids are exposed to someone (like a minister) from a different faith, who is teaching about things that are not quite the same, or even the opposite of what they’ve learned at home (like Holy Communion), they can get very confused. It might be difficult to convince them that your way is the correct way, especially if they go to another church, frequently. That’s why Catholics are discouraged from attending any services in other churches, because it can cause confusion and foster doubts. That’s when the defining line between the two very different sets of beliefs, can start to get fuzzy.

Thanks for sharing.

How/when did you teach your children about dealing with those that have different beliefs than them? Have your children (now grown) attended Mass ~every week of their adult lives now? Or has one of them ventured into another faith/non-faith for a while?

Discussing other faiths with friends, is not the same as attending faith-based social events or services. I find it a little odd that an LDS Mom would encourage their kids to do that

What better way is there to learn respect and appreciation of another faith than to visit them in their house of worship? I love it growing up, and now take my daughter to different churches on random weeks.

For me, I’ve found that seeing things from different perspectives does not make the image fuzzy at all, but rather clarifies the image and brings it into a 3D depth. Somethings in God’s magnificence are simply better viewed from a different perspective.

I find it a little odd that an LDS Mom would encourage their kids to do that, especially knowing how their whole social structure is usually based around family participation in church functions.

As to Mormon social structure being built around the family, nothing of that changed because I would visit a Baptist youth group (for example). I still came home, I’m still my Mom’s daughter, going skiing with the family, praying together, went to church, and loving God together. She always trusted me to come home after my adventures, having faith in the my faith.

When you got older and left your LDS faith for a time, do you suppose that having attended any of those other churches had any effect on your decision to leave?

Quite the opposite! What drove me away from Mormonism for a while was being at BYU-Idaho, where the people were >99% LDS and the culture had become… when you have a monoculture of anything, the fallen-human tendency pretend like there’s only one way of thinking and one way of acting to an extreme, and then the Pharisees take over. I wanted zero part of that and left (the church and BYU-Idaho).

Years later, my visiting other churches actually was the breath of fresh air which allowed my love of Christ to rekindle, and in turn brought me back to the Mormon church.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I’m an even older fuddy duddy than Telstar. I was raised with the same understanding of interfaith participation. I was raised in Utah in the 30s-40s and it was unthinkable to even consider participating in another religion’s (or denomination’s) services. You just didn’t do it. You didn’t even ask others to do it unless your goal was actually proselytization. It wasn’t necessarily couched in ideas of possibly causing confusion or doubt. Worship was understood far more communally than individualistically as it is today. If you walked into a Catholic church and participated in the Mass (even if you didn’t receive communion) you were in effect worshipping as Catholics do. There wasn’t any sort of understanding that one could divorce themselves from the communal aspect of corporate worship and “just be a fly on the wall”.

The first time I ever saw this sort of “church swapping” was when I moved to San Francisco in the early 50s. There was only one LDS meeting house that was in the process of being extensively renovated. The local Masonic temple was gracious enough to lend us their space for Sacrament Meeting and a few months later a Methodist church lent us their recreation hall for the same (Wednesday School, Priesthood Meeting, Relief Society, etc. were held in members’ houses). It was only then, and I think out of necessity, that it was seen as OK that Mormon children attend the youth activities with the Methodists. It would still take another decade or two for the Catholics to come around though. I was told by many Catholic acquaintances that a Catholic could only attend a non-Catholic Christian service if its for an important social event (i.e. marriages and funerals). Religious events (such as baptisms and confirmations) were still off the table since going to witness these events were construed as participating in another religion’s worship. I was also told that they were absolutely forbidden from even entering a synagogue.

 

[jane_doe]

I’m an even older fuddy duddy than Telstar. I was raised with the same understanding of interfaith participation. I was raised in Utah in the 30s-40s and it was unthinkable to even consider participating in another religion’s (or denomination’s) services. You just didn’t do it. You didn’t even ask others to do it unless your goal was actually proselytization. It wasn’t necessarily couched in ideas of possibly causing confusion or doubt. Worship was understood far more communally than individualistically as it is today. If you walked into a Catholic church and participated in the Mass (even if you didn’t receive communion) you were in effect worshipping as Catholics do. There wasn’t any sort of understanding that one could divorce themselves from the communal aspect of corporate worship and “just be a fly on the wall”.

The first time I ever saw this sort of “church swapping” was when I moved to San Francisco in the early 50s. There was only one LDS meeting house that was in the process of being extensively renovated. The local Masonic temple was gracious enough to lend us their space for Sacrament Meeting and a few months later a Methodist church lent us their recreation hall for the same (Wednesday School, Priesthood Meeting, Relief Society, etc. were held in members’ houses). It was only then, and I think out of necessity, that it was seen as OK that Mormon children attend the youth activities with the Methodists. It would still take another decade or two for the Catholics to come around though. I was told by many Catholic acquaintances that a Catholic could only attend a non-Catholic Christian service if its for an important social event (i.e. marriages and funerals). Religious events (such as baptisms and confirmations) were still off the table since going to witness these events were construed as participating in another religion’s worship. I was also told that they were absolutely forbidden from even entering a synagogue.

What are your views on this now Brandon? How do you feel about visiting other faiths?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

What are your views on this now Brandon? How do you feel about visiting other faiths?

Since the culture has changed my opinions have changed a bit as well. As it is I attend two churches every Sunday: my LDS Ward and I alternate every other Sunday at a Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Once I decide which of the two churches I’m going to be baptized in (Catholic or Orthodox) I don’t really have any intention of attending Sacrament Meeting any more. It’s not so much that doing so would be scandalous or inappropriate, instead I just don’t see any utility in doing so. I have 27 grandchildren and 4 (soon to be 6!) great-grandchildren so I imagine that I’ll be stepping into LDS churches for a while to witness their baptisms, confirmations, scout awards, etc. I allowed my temple recommend to expire a year ago and won’t be attending a worthiness interview ever again so it’ll be strange to experience my first LDS wedding on the other side of the temple walls with all the other heathens

 

[Marie5890]

HOW WONDERFUL!!!

I hope they all make you smile

 

[Horton]

Since the culture has changed my opinions have changed a bit as well. As it is I attend two churches every Sunday: my LDS Ward and I alternate every other Sunday at a Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Once I decide which of the two churches I’m going to be baptized in (Catholic or Orthodox) I don’t really have any intention of attending Sacrament Meeting any more. It’s not so much that doing so would be scandalous or inappropriate, instead I just don’t see any utility in doing so. I have 27 grandchildren and 4 (soon to be 6!) great-grandchildren so I imagine that I’ll be stepping into LDS churches for a while to witness their baptisms, confirmations, scout awards, etc. I allowed my temple recommend to expire a year ago and won’t be attending a worthiness interview ever again so it’ll be strange to experience my first LDS wedding on the other side of the temple walls with all the other heathens

Brandon - If you know you are planning to be baptized Catholic or Orthodox why do you still attend LDS meetings? Not judging, just trying to understand.

I’ve attended many religious/social functions at different denominations especially prior to my conversion. I was raised in a mainstream protestant denomination and I don’t remember there ever being an issue of going to another church. I was an adult before I’d ever heard of the LDS. I’ve attended one wedding and two funerals in LDS meeting houses. The last one only a couple of years ago. The thing that struck me was how bland the place was. If one didn’t know better one could think they were in just some auditorium. While we Catholics tend to have very ornate churches, even many protestant church have symbols indicating it is a house of worship. I guess I thought there would have been something to indicate it is a house of worship.

Since becoming Catholic I have no need to visit other churches but would not hesitate to go for weddings, funerals, or other significant events. I, however, will never take communion in another denomination.

 

[iepuras]

Since the culture has changed my opinions have changed a bit as well. As it is I attend two churches every Sunday: my LDS Ward and I alternate every other Sunday at a Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Once I decide which of the two churches I’m going to be baptized in (Catholic or Orthodox) I don’t really have any intention of attending Sacrament Meeting any more. It’s not so much that doing so would be scandalous or inappropriate, instead I just don’t see any utility in doing so. I have 27 grandchildren and 4 (soon to be 6!) great-grandchildren so I imagine that I’ll be stepping into LDS churches for a while to witness their baptisms, confirmations, scout awards, etc. I allowed my temple recommend to expire a year ago and won’t be attending a worthiness interview ever again so it’ll be strange to experience my first LDS wedding on the other side of the temple walls with all the other heathens

I must be a fuddy duddy at heart. I am a generation x-er and don’t have any intention to allow my children to attend other churches with friends. Maybe when they are teenagers. Maybe.

I guess I am sensitive to the fact that my mother tried to teach my children Mormonism behind my back. I was very clear that I am raising my children Catholic (of the Byzantine variety) and she took it upon herself to “save” them. Growing up I also a was invited to and attended some Evangelical events for teens with friends. There was one event in particular that I found to be deceptive in that it was advertised as a social event for teens but was very heavy on proselytizing. They had an altar call and were even performing baptisms. It just never sat well with me. Given that I live in a very Evangelical community, I’m going to be very careful of any church events my children are invited to.

And Brandon, welcome to the club! And the best part about it is that membership is free!

 

[jane_doe]

Since the culture has changed my opinions have changed a bit as well. As it is I attend two churches every Sunday: my LDS Ward and I alternate every other Sunday at a Catholic Mass and Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Once I decide which of the two churches I’m going to be baptized in (Catholic or Orthodox) I don’t really have any intention of attending Sacrament Meeting any more. It’s not so much that doing so would be scandalous or inappropriate, instead I just don’t see any utility in doing so. I have 27 grandchildren and 4 (soon to be 6!) great-grandchildren so I imagine that I’ll be stepping into LDS churches for a while to witness their baptisms, confirmations, scout awards, etc. I allowed my temple recommend to expire a year ago and won’t be attending a worthiness interview ever again so it’ll be strange to experience my first LDS wedding on the other side of the temple walls with all the other heathens

Congrats on the grandkids!!

I’m fascinated by the dynamics between the RCC and Orthodox. What draws you to one or the other?

 

[jane_doe]

I was an adult before I’d ever heard of the LDS. I’ve attended one wedding and two funerals in LDS meeting houses. The last one only a couple of years ago. The thing that struck me was how bland the place was. If one didn’t know better one could think they were in just some auditorium. While we Catholics tend to have very ornate churches, even many protestant church have symbols indicating it is a house of worship. I guess I thought there would have been something to indicate it is a house of worship.

When it comes to LDS chapels, “utilitarian” most definitely the word. LDS temples on the other hand, are very ornate.

Horton, do you feel the beauty of a place affects your worship? (Sorry for the awkwardly phrased question, I can’t think of better wording).

 

[jane_doe]

I guess I am sensitive to the fact that my mother tried to teach my children Mormonism behind my back. I was very clear that I am raising my children Catholic (of the Byzantine variety) and she took it upon herself to “save” them. Growing up I also a was invited to and attended some Evangelical events for teens with friends. There was one event in particular that I found to be deceptive in that it was advertised as a social event for teens but was very heavy on proselytizing. They had an altar call and were even performing baptisms. It just never sat well with me. Given that I live in a very Evangelical community, I’m going to be very careful of any church events my children are invited to.

Yes, I remember when you first posted about your mom (I’ve been lurking here for long time). Her actions were shameful. I also find alter calls to be extremely tacky (not offense to any Evangelicals here, I just do). Personally, I strive to be very transparent about my religious chats/invitations to others.

What is Catholic (of the Byzantine variety) different from any other Catholic?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Brandon - If you know you are planning to be baptized Catholic or Orthodox why do you still attend LDS meetings? Not judging, just trying to understand.

It makes my wife happy. Since I have no obligation to any other church yet I don’t see the harm. She knows now of my intention to convert and she’s fairly supportive. My bishopric and stake presidency know as well and I think due to my advanced age they don’t plan on initiating any disciplinary council. I’ve been released from my callings, I don’t partake of the Sacrament and we’re all still on good terms.

The thing that struck me was how bland the place was. If one didn’t know better one could think they were in just some auditorium. While we Catholics tend to have very ornate churches, even many protestant church have symbols indicating it is a house of worship. I guess I thought there would have been something to indicate it is a house of worship.

Unfortunately since I’d say the 70s or 80s the LDS Church has sided with utility over beauty (something I’ve noticed in other churches as well. Catholic churches built today are just not what they used to be). At first this trend was only seen with LDS meeting houses, but now this architectural plague has hit the Temples as well. All newly constructed temples are significantly smaller than those of yesteryear and what’s worse is they are all constructed from the same cookie cutter template. Just boxy looking buildings with a single spire and an Angel Moroni on top. It’s so sad.

This is the sealing room where my wife and I were married:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This is the sealing room where my grandson was recently married:

The more ornate LDS Ward meeting houses aren’t going be found outside of Utah, Arizona, or Idaho. This is the church of my childhood:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Horton]

When it comes to LDS chapels, “utilitarian” most definitely the word. LDS temples on the other hand, are very ornate.

Horton, do you feel the beauty of a place affects your worship? (Sorry for the awkwardly phrased question, I can’t think of better wording).

I would think for the LDS, where proselytising is a predominate feature to draw in members, having a place of worship they are allowed to see would at least have a hint of its purpose.

And no Jane, the beauty of a place has no effect on my time at Mass or time with the Blessed Sacrament. My home parish is a recently (last 10 years or so) built and is very modern in style. But while it has no stain glassed windows or marble statues there is no doubt once you enter, it is the house of our Lord. During my time in prayer I can gaze at the altar, the tabernacle, the crucifix, or close my eyes. My point is anyone can walk into a Catholic Church and know they are in a place of worship. They may not know it’s Catholic but they will know it’s a special place. I don’t think the same could be said of an LDS meeting house.

Just this morning I was able to attend Mass at our Cathedral. The beauty of the altar, the windows, the music from the organ, the sound of the kneelers being put up and/or down, the high ceilings & arches, the beauty of the place enhances my time with Jesus. But I’ve knelt in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament on a high school gym floor, been to Mass at parks and even a sunday school classroom transformed into a chapel.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Congrats on the grandkids!!

I’m fascinated by the dynamics between the RCC and Orthodox. What draws you to one or the other?

What draws me is apostolicity (is that even a word?). In my own study over the last couple decades I’ve become convinced that Jesus Christ established a visible church with a hierarchy, true Sacraments, and most importantly a mechanism to effect continuity through the ages: Bishops who succeed from the Apostles. What I haven’t figured out yet is which of the four main communions is the continuation of that ancient Church (Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, or Roman Catholic). Given the ecumenical movement though I may not have to really make this decision. The Catholic priest at the parish I attend bimonthly told me that should I find myself in danger of death and I’m in the presence of a Catholic priest and an Orthodox priest that I should grab whoever is closest and request baptism. The Orthodox priest I know well has told me to quit overthinking this and just become Catholic already! (Catholic not Orthodox).

 

[Horton]

It makes my wife happy. Since I have no obligation to any other church yet I don’t see the harm. She knows now of my intention to convert and she’s fairly supportive. My bishopric and stake presidency know as well and I think due to my advanced age they don’t plan on initiating any disciplinary council. I’ve been released from my callings, I don’t partake of the Sacrament and we’re all still on good terms.

That is understandable. Another question and you can decline to answer if it’s too personal. It appears you are the patriarch of a large family. Since you plan to convert what is the LDS understanding of the sealing issue? In other words, a wife and children believe they are all sealed for time & eternity and the patriarch is the leads the path to heaven what happens when that patriarch no longer holds the same belief?

Unfortunately since I’d say the 70s or 80s the LDS Church has sided with utility over beauty (something I’ve noticed in other churches as well. Catholic churches built today are just not what they used to be). At first this trend was only seen with LDS meeting houses, but now this architectural plague has hit the Temples as well. All newly constructed temples are significantly smaller than those of yesteryear and what’s worse is they are all constructed from the same cookie cutter template. Just boxy looking buildings with a single spire and an Angel Moroni on top. It’s so sad.