Do LDS baptize converts immediately?

[XuDan]

I am glad you have found healing

I wouldn’t go that far. I’m definitely a work in progress and far from healed. I tend to be distrusting and suspicious of people’s motive and their word because of the things I was put through. I still screen my phone calls and dread a knocking on the door because I’m still being harassed by the ward. I’m working on these things, and I know it will take time and a substantial amount of effort on my part. So I’ll meet you in the middle and say that I’m glad that the healing process has been initiated.

 

[XuDan]

I’d love to share! It will take me a day or so to get the references together, but I most definitely will.

Thank you! I look forward to it!

 

[jane_doe]

I wouldn’t go that far. I’m definitely a work in progress and far from healed. I tend to be distrusting and suspicious of people’s motive and their word because of the things I was put through. I still screen my phone calls and dread a knocking on the door because I’m still being harassed by the ward. I’m working on these things, and I know it will take time and a substantial amount of effort on my part. So I’ll meet you in the middle and say that I’m glad that the healing process has been initiated.

Goodness is goodness, no matter the quantity it comes in

 

[zaffiroborant]

Joseph Smith and church history is a common theme for people to leave the LDS church over. Personally, the fact that they were flawed humans making very flawed decisions doesn’t really bother me (my reaction is more “no duh”). I don’t base my faith on “because Joseph Smith said so”, or because any other human said so—I have to obstinately go figure it out for myself. So I do a lot of solo study and prayer.

The trouble is all we have is Joseph’s say so, if we find him an untrustworthy person then it’ over.

Continuing with my own beliefs, I see no reason why two siblings should ever stop loving each other or being together, even if one is more like God than the other. I also think that our current mortal understanding of what a divine sealing is extremely poor. I sure don’t think it’s copy-paste from what we have on Earth today.

My husband is not LDS. Never has been, and probably never will be. When he and I first started talking about marriage, I brought my concerns about that to the Lord. The Lord told me very distinctly that “it’ll be ok”. Well, I can’t very well argue with that, can I? So we married, and I do not fret about a sealing, even though I don’t know how things will work out. I think the Catholic phrasing for it would be that it’s a mystery of faith.

So you find the LDS sealing unnecessary.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I wouldn’t go that far. I’m definitely a work in progress and far from healed. I tend to be distrusting and suspicious of people’s motive and their word because of the things I was put through. I still screen my phone calls and dread a knocking on the door because I’m still being harassed by the ward.

Isn’t that known as a large social support structure

 

[Horton]

Joseph Smith and church history is a common theme for people to leave the LDS church over. Personally, the fact that they were flawed humans making very flawed decisions doesn’t really bother me (my reaction is more “no duh”). I don’t base my faith on “because Joseph Smith said so”, or because any other human said so—I have to obstinately go figure it out for myself. So I do a lot of solo study and prayer.

But JS claimed to to be prophet of a church he claimed was a restoration of the chuch started by Christ. His flaws, and some are biggies, should be indicative of his trustworthiness. If he is dishonest or shady with so many things in his life, why would one believe his account of the BoM to be true.

A lot of LDS folks see the final Degrees of Glory being differentiated by address: the most righteous live here, the lesser living here, etc. But I don’t see it that way. Rather, I see a person’s final Degree of Glory being the degree of glory they have within themselves: how much do YOU reflect God? A person whom embraces God with every fiber of their being shines in a Celestial glory, being brighter than the sun, and entrusted as a joint-heir in Christ. A person whom resists God and retains some of their lesser qualities, shines with only a lesser glory, and is entrusted to a lesser degree (cause that’s all God can give). I find this belief, because the end goal of God’s plan is for us to be like Him, not to have a fancy residence.

This is a huge difference between LDS & Christian views of the truths of Heaven. We as Christian believe heaven is the great equalizer. We are all adopted children of God and as such we will all be treated equally. Our faith and good works get us to heaven period. Having so called more/better/longer faith and/or doing more/better/longer good works does not secure us a higher place in heaven. We’ll all be invited to the great banquet with the Lord.

My husband is not LDS. Never has been, and probably never will be. When he and I first started talking about marriage, I brought my concerns about that to the Lord. The Lord told me very distinctly that “it’ll be ok”. Well, I can’t very well argue with that, can I? So we married, and I do not fret about a sealing, even though I don’t know how things will work out. I think the Catholic phrasing for it would be that it’s a mystery of faith.

But LDS doctrine is clear that for a woman to get to the Celestial Kingdom a man must take her there. By your statement about it sounds as if the Lord doesn’t believe in the LDS levels of heaven either.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

One of the many times I’ve tried to understand the Trinity, I went to 10 friends of various Trinitarian faiths, and asked them to explain it to me. These 10 friends gave me 16 very different answers, 0 of which made sense. That was a frustrating month…

I understand the frustration. Lay members of various denominations are often sloppy with their speech and don’t take the time to carefully articulate them with extreme precision, which naturally leads to confusion… sometimes even within the denomination itself! This poll conducted last year revealed that a significant minority of American Evangelicals believe heretical things about the Trinity (heretical according to Evangelicalism!). These aren’t cafeteria Evangelicals either, who know the doctrine of the Trinity well and are consciously dissenting from the doctrine, rather genuine, every-day Evangelicals who are merely confused.

Still, I’m stubborn and kept asking throughout the years. The most logical, useful, and spiritually-fitting answer I have received was from some who grew up Catholic. She said that the trinity was viewed as three beings, all made up of one substance (one “ousia”), and it was that substance which made Him one God. Brandon, would you say that’s in the ballpark?

She got the first part wrong and the second part right, and in so doing your Catholic friend has succumbed to the very thing I mentioned in the post you quoted: She’s conflating the persons and being of the Trinity.

Recall this section of my post:

So when a Catholic says “We believe there is one Divine being that eternally exists in three Divine persons” The materialist (whether a spiritual materialist like a Mormon or a true physicalist like an atheist) hears “We believe there is one Divine thing that eternally exists in three Divine things” and then naturally starts to scratch her head

“ousia” is Greek for ‘being’ or ‘substance’. Saying that the Trinity is three beings in one ousia is the exact same thing as saying that the Trinity is three beings in one being which is the very Sabellian heresy that the Council of Nicea condemned. There is only one Divine being. One. There are three Divine persons.

The Latin creed that Catholics profess translates ousia to substantia, which is why the English creed states that Jesus Christ is “consubstantial with the Father”. Substance, being, essence, ousia… these all mean the exact same thing. We can toss in the word ‘nature’, though there is a little bit of a nuanced distinction there in that God the Son can possess two natures (human and divine) while being only one substance (Jesus isn’t two beings). More properly natures are properties of, or functions of, being/essence/ousia. My nature (human) isn’t a function of my person (Brandon) rather it’s a function of my being/essence/ousia since it arises out of the very body I possess. You and I have the exact same nature, we are of 1 nature (human) even though you and I are two separate people (Jane and Brandon). It get’s tricky in our cases when discussing being as you and I are in fact two beings due to our existing as materially distinct beings. Since God is not made of matter, he cannot be materially distinct. Since he cannot be materially distinct his being cannot be distinct. Since his being cannot be distinct the three persons of the Trinity must exist as one being.

 

[Stephen168]

While I studied philosophy in college, I fell in love with the Greek philosophers, finding them and Natural Law to be fantastic thought-tools. My studied with them resonated deeply with Mormonism, and clashed when trying to meld with Trinitarian beliefs in any logical way.

It would seem to me that anyone who “fell in love with the Greek philosophers” would understand Christian teaching on the trinity; and the philosophers would make is hard to reject one God who created ex nihilo. While the philosophers would not take you to the trinity or the Eucharist, they would explain them with the help of a knowledgeable person who also loved the Greek philosophers. I think Brandon Cal is that person.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Hey, I learned more stuff about RCIA! My town just does RCIA Oct-Easter (small college town), which has caused me frustration, because I never have the time in Oct to check things out (annual work deadlines). I did not realize that these practiced varied from parish to parish. Thanks for the info iepuras and Steven

I’ve actually send them used in missionary lessons in my area already

Id love to see the Mormons talk about the obvious discrepancies in the “book of Abraham” (I mean Egyptian burial scroll) and explain why editor errors from the KJV were copied word for word into the BOM. Maybe even a DNA discussion…yea not going to happen at Mormon training events.

Always got to be skeptical of faiths that base everything on a burning in the bosom. And use terms like when properly translated…and don’t read, speak, or write Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

jane_doe,

Have you ever had the chance to read the Athanasian Creed? If not I’d recommend doing so. It’s the longest of the three Christian creeds due to the fact that it exhaustively lists the qualities of divinity as we typically understand them and states how they relate to the one being of God, then it lists the qualities of the persons and states how they relate to the individual person of Jesus Christ.

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

Whatever one person of the Trinity is all three persons must be since they are all the same being.

The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords.

Note the laundry list of qualities here. They’re all qualities of being: Unlimited, eternal, uncreated, infinite, almighty, divine.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

Here we see qualities of personhood not being, namely the way the persons relate to one another. The Father begets the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

One Lord and one God (being) who is,
One Jesus Christ (person) who subsists of:

• a reasonable soul that is Divine and coequal to the Father (one divine being),
• mortal flesh that is human and inferior to the Father.

The last part I bolded in this creed is vital in understanding the stark difference between Mormon and Christian understanding of humanity and divinity:

Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person.

God did not literally “become Man” in the sense of his essence converting into the essence of manhood, rather the one Divine being assumed Manhood in the person of Jesus Christ in order to elevate human nature to divine nature without actually merging the two natures of Christ. God did not become a human being so that humans could become divine beings, rather God took on human nature so that human nature could be elevated to a divine quality.

 

[jane_doe]

So you find the LDS sealing unnecessary.

I don’t know why God told me not to worry about it. It could be that my husband will convert at a later date, it could be that it’ll happen after he’s passed, or that it’s unnecessary. I’m just not in the habit of worrying about things that God said not to worry about.

Zaff, are there areas in your faith you don’t know everything about?

 

[jane_doe]

jane_doe,
Have you ever had the chance to read the Athanasian Creed?..

Brandon, thank you for taking the time to try to explain this to me… even if I’m not quite getting it.

Yes, I have read the Athanasian Creed, and the other classical Christian Creeds. Truthfully, they weren’t all that helpful on my quest, because my quest is not to understand the faith found in people’s hearts, not the faith on paper. I just don’t see people using such words to describe their own faith in the trinity, and when I read words of the creeds to people (particularly the Athanasian Creed), their eyes glaze over and frequently they get very annoyed with me (so I quit trying that approach).

Maybe it’s just because Trinitarian folks frequently don’t understand the Trinity themselves, as you described in a previous post? Do you feel that you understand it at all?

 

[Horton]

I don’t know why God told me not to worry about it. It could be that my husband will convert at a later date, it could be that it’ll happen after he’s passed, or that it’s unnecessary. I’m just not in the habit of worrying about things that God said not to worry about.

Zaff, are there areas in your faith you don’t know everything about?

Considering the whole eternal marriage idea is a huge factor in the LDS faith it’s difficult to understand why a TBM would not consider marriage to a non-LDS significant to their idea of eternal life.

What about children? Aren’t children sealed to parents? Can a child be sealed to only one parent? What if children leave the LDS as adults? Are they then no longer sealed? With this concept of “sealing for all time & eternity” do these types of things not bother you?

I have a great family and I truly hope to see those who have passed before me when I get to heaven. But more than that, more than anything I want to look at the face of Jesus. My earthly family is great but I can’t wait for the day I get to be with my heaven family. To be with all my brothers & sisters in Christ. To enjoy the kingdom of the Lord.

And I think I can answer for Zaff and most Catholics, yes there are things many of us don’t know about our faith. I don’t think any Catholic on this thread claims to be an expert in all of Catholicism although there many can be considered subject matter experts in areas of our faith.

See this is the beauty of the Catholic Church. The more one seeks answers the more one is encouraged to find questions. Often I have sought an answer to a simple question and in finding the answer I come with a whole new line of questioning.We are encouraged to make retreats to study, reflect, and learn. And just as you have found on here while we all come different places in life, states of life, different backgrounds, cradle to convert, different locations the message is the same. We believed when Jesus said - Matt16:18-19
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Horton]

Brandon, thank you for taking the time to try to explain this to me… even if I’m not quite getting it.

Yes, I have read the Athanasian Creed, and the other classical Christian Creeds. Truthfully, they weren’t all that helpful on my quest, because my quest is not to understand the faith found in people’s hearts, not the faith on paper. I just don’t see people using such words to describe their own faith in the trinity, and when I read words of the creeds to people (particularly the Athanasian Creed), their eyes glaze over and frequently they get very annoyed with me (so I quit trying that approach).

Maybe it’s just because Trinitarian folks frequently don’t understand the Trinity themselves, as you described in a previous post? Do you feel that you understand it at all?

I’ve believed in the Trinity my whole life, was raised in a trinitarian protestant church and converted to Catholicism as an adult. I don’t come across many people who struggle with the concept of the Trinity. Grew up saying the Apostles Creed and now the Nicene Creed. Both explain the Trinity. As Brandon said you have come at it with an open mind and open heart. Do some people not get it? Sure but to just make a claim that “Trinitarian folks frequently don’t understand it” is just wrong.

Maybe that has been your experience when you are trying to explain a concept you have a preconceived idea that it is untrue.

 

[lax16]

That sounds a lot like protestant churches. I’ve heard many of them say “it doesn’t matter which church you go to, as long as XYZ are agreed upon”. But part of that is they very specifically reject the need for centralized leadership (which Catholics do not).

Overarching statement?

 

[jane_doe]

Considering the whole eternal marriage idea is a huge factor in the LDS faith it’s difficult to understand why a TBM would not consider marriage to a non-LDS significant to their idea of eternal life.

What about children? Aren’t children sealed to parents? Can a child be sealed to only one parent? What if children leave the LDS as adults? Are they then no longer sealed? With this concept of “sealing for all time & eternity” do these types of things not bother you?

I have a great family and I truly hope to see those who have passed before me when I get to heaven. But more than that, more than anything I want to look at the face of Jesus. My earthly family is great but I can’t wait for the day I get to be with my heaven family. To be with all my brothers & sisters in Christ. To enjoy the kingdom of the Lord.

And I think I can answer for Zaff and most Catholics, yes there are things many of us don’t know about our faith. I don’t think any Catholic on this thread claims to be an expert in all of Catholicism although there many can be considered subject matter experts in areas of our faith.

See this is the beauty of the Catholic Church. The more one seeks answers the more one is encouraged to find questions. Often I have sought an answer to a simple question and in finding the answer I come with a whole new line of questioning.We are encouraged to make retreats to study, reflect, and learn. And just as you have found on here while we all come different places in life, states of life, different backgrounds, cradle to convert, different locations the message is the same. We believed when Jesus said - Matt16:18-19
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Horton, I’m unsure of where you’re going with your posts. Did you want to share your thoughts, have me listen, and then you listen to mine? That’s why I’m here.

Did you want to talk about LDS sealing practices in general? Or my beliefs in particular? I’m good either way, if you want to listen (otherwise the point is kind of mote…)

Did you want to talk about exploring faith with questions and answers? If so, I’d love to join you in that discussion! Exploring faith is a major passion of mine.

I’ve heard you declare your love of Peter and the rock. I’m glad you have faith, I hope it brings you great happiness.

So, as to this forum that, what do you want to talk about?

 

[iepuras]

How long did you have from 1) leaving Mormonism to checking out Catholicism, and 2) checking out Catholicism to thoroughly embracing it?

After leaving Mormonism, I spent about a month figuring out that there is a God and that Jesus is God. I did a lot of reading, thinking and talking with my husband (he was born and raised Eastern Orthodox but he and his family are very ecumenical EO’s) during that time. Because I have young children, I felt like I needed to figure at least some things out relatively quickly for their sake.

When I decided I needed to be Christian, I wanted to join the church Jesus started, so I looked to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. My husband and I took a somewhat practical approach given where we live and my husband’s cultural background. So we landed in the Catholic Church and eventually landed in a Byzantine Catholic parish last fall.

I started RCIA about a month after I mentally left the LDS church. I wasn’t entirely sure about it at first. I was going to quit about two months into it (when I was still an inquirer and not yet a catechumen) when I had an experience where it was made very clear to me what God wanted me to do despite my own misgivings. So I became a catechumen and focused on the 3 things I needed to believe - the Trinity, the Eucharest and the Marian dogmas. It took me another 4-5 months to get there. At that point, I had a real hunger for the Eucharist but I still had 6 months to wait for the Easter Vigil. It was well worth the wait.

Joseph Smith and church history is a common theme for people to leave the LDS church over. Personally, the fact that they were flawed humans making very flawed decisions doesn’t really bother me (my reaction is more “no duh”). I don’t base my faith on “because Joseph Smith said so”, or because any other human said so—I have to obstinately go figure it out for myself. So I do a lot of solo study and prayer.

I never required perfection from Joseph Smith. I just expected him to behave in a trustworthy and moral manner. When I learned he didn’t, I saw no reason to believe a word he had to say. Claiming to see God is quite a claim and I don’t see a reason for believing it when that person tried to make a living by taking money in exchange for finding treasure with a stone, which treasure conveniently was never found. Nor do I think a “prophet” is all that prophetic when he prophesies that his followers should build him a big house. Nor do I find it moral to send apostles on missions and “marry” their wives while they are gone or to “marry” teenager girls who are one’s legal wards. If there was a man who did all these things today, I would think that you wouldn’t find him all that trustworthy.

 

[iepuras]

I wouldn’t go that far. I’m definitely a work in progress and far from healed. I tend to be distrusting and suspicious of people’s motive and their word because of the things I was put through. I still screen my phone calls and dread a knocking on the door because I’m still being harassed by the ward. I’m working on these things, and I know it will take time and a substantial amount of effort on my part. So I’ll meet you in the middle and say that I’m glad that the healing process has been initiated.

I hear you. I dread holidays and birthdays because that seems to be when we are bothered. Although, I am doing ok now, it has taken a lot to get to this point, including getting medical help. I don’t know that I will ever find complete healing in this life. I am just incredibly grateful that I have access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist.

 

[Telstar]

It would seem to me that anyone who “fell in love with the Greek philosophers” would understand Christian teaching on the trinity; and the philosophers would make is hard to reject one God who created ex nihilo. While the philosophers would not take you to the trinity or the Eucharist, they would explain them with the help of a knowledgeable person who also loved the Greek philosophers. I think Brandon Cal is that person.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Brandon Cal has certainly done his homework, to the point of putting this Cradle Catholic to shame by his knowledge and deep understanding of the Catholic Faith. His posts, particularly his last few in this thread, are a true inspiration to me, to become a better Catholic. Bravo!

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[eightydeuce82]

Horton, I’m unsure of where you’re going with your posts. Did you want to share your thoughts, have me listen, and then you listen to mine? That’s why I’m here.

Did you want to talk about LDS sealing practices in general? Or my beliefs in particular? I’m good either way, if you want to listen (otherwise the point is kind of mote…)

Did you want to talk about exploring faith with questions and answers? If so, I’d love to join you in that discussion! Exploring faith is a major passion of mine.

I’ve heard you declare your love of Peter and the rock. I’m glad you have faith, I hope it brings you great happiness.

So, as to this forum that, what do you want to talk about?

Jane as I told you in PM Catholics generally have a hard time dialoging with people who base there faith off of a feeling rather than reason (hence the great disdain for Sola Scriptura, its a self defeating principle). That’s a no win proposition for both sides. This is one big reason those who convert to Catholicism feel a sense of relief when they find out there is way more to truth than feeling indigestion or heartburn. We are human things like historic and scientific data are important. Intellectual honesty goes a long way. I can tell you unless any of the Mormon apologists can finally give us a nailed down historic date for the great apostasy then nothing will be discussed with any fervor. I myself and tired of hearing about an event that outside of the crucifixion would have been the most significant event in human history…but no one knows when it was. Not a shred of historic evidence or blip on the radar can be found that would even indicate something like that happened. Then the people who play it down and say well as soon as there were not 12 poof they lost the priesthood…there was never not 12 to replace the apostles. We keep pretty meticulous records. bla bla bla bla bla…and on forever…see what I’m saying.

I had a former Mormon tell me just yesterday when he realized he felt the same burning in his bosom when he had heartburn, fell in love, heard good music, or was scared to death that using this as your basis for believing in God (or anything for that matter) is well a bit ridiculous. Seems a bit convoluted but thats why he left.